Best way to build up painting for deep floater?

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Anne

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Hi everyone,
I have a painting on plywood and the customer selected a deep floater frame. I have to build up about 1/2-3/4 of an inch behind the painting so the painting will sit 1/4 below the outside edge of the frame. Any ideas the best and least invasive way to do this? Thanks, Anne
 
Offset clips?

I am trying to picture how the offset clips would work. With a floater frame, I usually screw right through the back of the frame into the stretcher bars if it is a canvas, and in this case, it's plywood-1/2 inch thick. Is it ok to screw right into the painting itself? And how would I use offsets in a floater frame? Thanks, Anne
 
The offsets would need to be screwed into the plywood from the inside of the strainer and drape over the strainer itself. The strainer is then attached to the floater by screwing through the back of the frame into the strainer. There is no non-invasive way to put the plywood into a floater. If it has value you will need to change the disign to a traditional frame.
 
Anne, I believe the suggestion is to make the strainer smaller than the plywood and then attach the strainer to the back of the painting with offset clips. (those would have to screw into back of plywood) then attach the floater with screws into the strainer.

No matter what you choose to do to get the extra thickness, someway or the other you are going to be screwing/glueing into the back of the plywood that it is painted on.



(Jeff typed faster than I did) :-)
 
Oy, I hate to have to say it, but I'm on my way out the door in a week so I can be Cranky Old Man: I would absolutely refuse to frame a painting on plywood this way. As the others have pointed out, you will have to screw something -- either the floater or a strainer into the back of the plywood. You have a very real risk of (1) splitting the plywood, and/or (2) drilling all the way through by accident. You think you can be careful drilling into 1/2-inch thick plywood? Hey, I drilled all the way through an inch-thick frame I was putting together as a readymade. The drill bit struck a pocket or something and went all the way through to the front side and into my work table. I think your best and most advisable option is to call the customer and try to convince them to change the design to something that isn't likely to destroy their painting.

Now, that being said, here's another option. I don't know if you are familiar with Jim Miller's "formed rod" or "bent rod" mounts for shadowboxes, but these might be workable. Basically you are taking a somewhat rigid piano wire, covering it with shrink tubing, and bending it into a shape that will hold an object in place. You could use bent rod mounts to hold the plywood painting against the stretcher, with the bent rods screwed into the stretcher. Depending on size and weight, two bent rods on each side of the painting, more if it's really heavy.

If you are having trouble visualizing the bent rod idea, look at this:

U

The U is the shape of the bent rod, with the plywood board and the strainer slipping into the inside of the U.
 
best way to build up painting for deep floater

I would just make the strainer/stretcher bar and glue it to the back of the plywood painting. No way would I risk screwing through the front.

Maybe not totatlly archival and easily removable but I'd tell the guy that up front and notate it the discussion on my work order notes. And what the heck--plywood isn't exactly an archival painting surface to begin with.
 
I would use contact cement to attach the strainer to the plywood/artwork.
 
so, if you glue to the board, wouldn't you need the artist's consent??? Kind of like when you want to cut a piece of the paper the art is on???

I would refuse to do this job, and explain why. If it's an original painting, no matter on what substrate; I would refuse to alter it in any way. I assume glueing a strainer to the back would be considered altering the art (but I can be wrong)?

Some things are not meant to be in a floater frame. If she likes the look of it, I would frame with black frame and put that in the floater frame.
 
panel in float frame

I just finished a piece like this...we decided to frame the piece in a NC mini and then screw through the floater into the back of the mini frame. It finished off the edges of the panel nicely (panels usually don't look that great on the edges) and gave me something to screw into.
Hope that's an idea that might help.
Molly
 
Anne said:
Hi everyone,
I have a painting on plywood and the customer selected a deep floater frame. I have to build up about 1/2-3/4 of an inch behind the painting so the painting will sit 1/4 below the outside edge of the frame. Any ideas the best and least invasive way to do this? Thanks, Anne
Click to expand...

How thick is the plywood?
 
Duct tape ( just kidding ) I've done many of these for a designer that always wants the canvas almost flush with the front of the floater. These were usually stretched canvases and not on plywood. I normally build a strainer slightly smaller than the artwork and paint the sides black to create a shadow effect. Depending on the thickness of the plywood I would probably glue it to the strainer using weights and leave it overnight to set up. I then center the artwork in the floater with a 3/8" to 3/4" float and screw the frame to the strainer countersinking the screws so they don't stick out the back of the frame. I don't glue the stretched canvases, but plywood - different story. Depends on thickness, value, etc.
 
How about using offset clips to hold the plywood in place by securing to the front of the artwork & painting the clips to match the particular area of the piece they cover.
 
I would also use the strainer to lift the plywood to fill the depth of the float frame. Have you considered using hook and loop velcro to hold the painting in place? It would be less invasive than the offsets and screws or using glue.
 
Personally I think everyone is overreacting to PVA gluing the plywood to a strainer, come on! Adhesive Velcro will fail! Ask any framer with corner samples on the wall. The real danger is using a method where the artwork is not secure.
 
GrumbleMike2 said:
pva or carpenters glue, no screws into the art
Click to expand...

Personally I would stay away from glue. The bond created between a stretcher and the plywood would be almost permanent. If for some reason the stretchers needed to be removed, the bond would almost surely pull the laminate off the back of plywood making a huge mess. Less invasive would be CAREFULLY using screws. If the stretchers needed to be removed, at least the holes could be filled and blended in to return it to the original look.
 
Randy,
I have used the velcro method I suggested and have not had any issues of the painting falling off. The problem you are taking about with corner samples is somewhat different. First, the small pieces of velcro provide less surface contact. Second, many of the corner samples are pulled off the wall loosing the adhesion whereas a painting stays in place in the float. Typically, if a room is climate controlled with heat and air to regulate temperature and humidity, the velcro works very well.
 
a rectangle of 1/2 ply--painted/stained---glued to the back of the piece, then screwed to frame
 
greg@larsonjuhl.com said:
I have used the velcro method I suggested and have not had any issues of the painting falling off. The problem you are taking about with corner samples is somewhat different. First, the small pieces of velcro provide less surface contact. Second, many of the corner samples are pulled off the wall loosing the adhesion whereas a painting stays in place in the float. Typically, if a room is climate controlled with heat and air to regulate temperature and humidity, the velcro works very well.
Click to expand...

Greg, the differences between corner samples and art is the weight of the art versus the weight of the corner samples. Secondly, art generally has some value, monetary or sentimental, where corner samples aren't worth anything. There is absolutely no way I would trust the adhesive from velcro or ATG to support anything of value.

As suggest by TopGun, no glue just screws carefully inserted through the strainer into the back of the art. Make sure the screws are long enough to go through the strainer but short enough not to go more than a few threads into the art. Use stainless steel screws so there is no rusting or other ill effect. Just my $0.02 - Joe B
 
I wouldn't trust the adhesive found on self-adhesive Velcro strips either.

However, I have done something similar to what the OP is getting at by building a strainer framer slightly smaller than the artwork and attaching Velcro strips to it with acrylic gel medium as an adhesive with staples as a backup mechanical fastener. Then to the back of the (thin) plywood or Masonite attached mating strips of Velcro using acrylic gel medium only. Obviously you can't staple into thin board. The strainer can be attached securely to the floater with screws or offset clips.

Of course under normal circumstances we wouldn't glue anything to the artwork or the artwork to anything, but in this case we're not left with much choice. The acrylic gel medium is water-based so you don't have any nasty chemicals involved and when dry it is as stable and chemically inert as acrylic. Which is to say quite.

The forces involved in such an application are different from corner samples and you're using a better adhesive. Not much comparison.
 
Pressure sensitive adhesive-type hook/loop fastener should not be trusted to hold anything under any amount of stress. In this case the stress would be gravity, and it works every minute of every day, 24/7/365.

3M Dual-Lock would be a better fastening technology for this purpose, because it is more durable than typical hool/loop fastener. That said, problems usually are not associated with the fastener, but with the pressure sensitive adhesive. Some hook/loop fastener products are available with a high-quality acrylic adhesive, which would be better, but still too risky as far as I'm concerned. The bond depends not only on the adhesive, but both of the surfaces joined, and its adhesion to them. Too many variables, too few choices, too many failures!

If the plywood is thick enough to allow screwing through the floater and a spacer-layer, then that is what I would do...carefully; with pre-drilled holes and screws of precisely-selected length.

If the plywood is too thin for screws, then I might consider using non-adhesive Dual-Lock (or hook/loop) fastener, attached by acrylic gel as David suggested, or by Lascaux 360 conservation-quality contact adhesive, which is nothing like hardware store contact adhesives. Lascaux is strong, yet chemically stable and removable by a conservator using certain solvents.
 
I totally understand your concern with the velcro adhesive and I am not trying to push it on anyone. I was just offering up an alternative. I used to be highly skeptical myself.

When we introduced our first float frames, they came from Europe. As we were looking at various ways to attach the paintings, some of folks in Europe told us they used Velcro. My response was to say the same things you guys are saying about not trusting it.

When I can, I do use offsets and screws but there have been instances when the particular painting and fit dictated something else. There are several pieces I used Velcro on a number of years ago and they are still holding tight. I really can hardly believe it myself, but it has proved me wrong numerous times. I would not use it for really large, heavy or warped pieces but for the average sizes and weights, I wouldn't hesitate to do it that way again.
 
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