Best type of Glue to use

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jasper194

jasper194

Grumbler
Joined
May 26, 2009
Posts
29
Loc
Georgia
I have just read the poll about joints and which is best to use- vnails, glue, or glue and vnails , and not once was Weldon #16 mentioned. I use this on wood and poly (plastic) frames. The only problem I have encountered so far is if too much is applied in the joint and it ozzes out, it melts the outside finish on the poly frames, but it bonds extremely well. The wood frames seems to bond very well. Has anyone had any experience with this brand glue
 
Weldon #16 is a solvent glue, and designed for use on Plexiglass Acrylic, it is a Fast-drying, high-strength acrylic cement. Also bonds styrene, butyrate, polycarbonate and other plastics and porous surfaces. Medium bodied.

for Poly frames you should use PlastiBond 1500 for newer poly, and regular PlastiBond for the older Poly. This product contains cyanoacrylate ester. and should not dissolve your finishes. I will however not come off if left to dry.

Weldon #16 is not at all designed for wood, and should not be used. I can't imagine it would serve the test of time.
 
thanks, Erik, for taking the time to repily. I will order and try your recommendations. The glue bonds great and fast, but it only takes a drop to mess up a frame.
 
I'm intrigued as to why you chose Weld-On #16 in the first place ... especially for a wood-to-wood application!

FYI, the following comments and table from Ridout Plastics provide a usage guide for IPS Weld-On products:
Weld-On #3
Fastest Setting. Water-Thin. Fast evaporation. Will leave markoff if spilled. Acrylic to Acrylic. Polycarbonate to Polycarbonate. Not for beginners.

WeldOn #4
Fast Setting. Water-Thin. Fast evaporation. Acrylic to Acrylic. Polycarbonate to Polycarbonate. Best for most applications of these materials.

Weld On #16
Fast Setting. Syrupy in consistency. Skins over fast but slower setting. Will leave a mess if spilled. Acrylic to Acrylic. Polycarbonate to Polycarbonate. ABS to Acrylic. Multi-purpose. Good for sealing tiny gaps and water-proofing small tanks.

Weld-On #10
2 part adhesive - High strength. For bonding dissimilar materials. Not clear.

Weld On #40
2 part CLEAR adhesive - Highest strength adhesive for acrylics. This is used in making large aquariums, tanks, and glueing thick pieces of Plexiglas. It cures perfectly clear. Removing bubbles after mixing requires patience and practice.
​
yhst-92284169562666_2049_17058052
 
Andrew,

I tried to follow the link backwards from the above chart, but couldn’t get any explanation.

What do the numbers in each cell mean e.g.

16
55/58
45/40

?
 
When I first started framing, I found a company that sold absolutely beautiful plastic moulding as well as wood. They recommended the weld on #16 for joining their frames. Sure enough, it bonds. The company I ordered from led me to believe it would work on wood, so I tried it. I have only been doing this for about a year, so I still have a lot to learn. The wood joints have held reallly well (I still have the frames since I built them for my personal canvas paintings) but I can't say what will happen a year or 10 years from now. I do vnail as well on the wood but not the plastic. This is a home grown opperation, very small, and this is the way I want to keep it, but I do want quality frames. I bet I've read every post on here 5 or 6 times, and appreciate all the good info.I have saved your chart for future reference. So whatdaya think, will the wood joints last? Guess I could cut out the joints and make smaller frames, but I think I'll just wait and see what happens.
 
There are many of us woodworkers that find a use for #16 and #4, but none of these uses have anything to do with a bearing structural bond. Main reason is that in wood, it has no rotational strength such as that which occurs in the racking when a frame is being handled. (and then, there will be those that will jump on here and denie that racking much less handling a frame with only one hand ever happens in "their" shop. :icon11: ) :D

Bill C, try Rideout Plastics http://www.rplastics.com/plac.html
best pricing I've found
 
...it has no rotational strength such as that which occurs in the racking when a frame is being handled.
Click to expand...

Are we supposed to know what "racking" is?

I'm not sure, but does "rotational stength" have something to do with glued parts rotating? Can you rotate a mitered joint after the frame is assembled?
 
Racking is when the left side 0f the frame goes east while the right side goes west and yes mitered joint do rack and racking ranks up there as the easiest way to break a miter joint.


Tom
 
jasper194 said:
I thought wood was porous surface. I will be using a different glue tho.
Click to expand...

Yes wood is porous. Yes Weld-On #16 will work with porous surfaces (for example it might be a good choice for bonding a plastic to a porous surface). But that does not mean that Weld-On #16 is the optimum adhesive for a wood-to-wood bond!

For wood-to-wood bonds most framers use some type of PVA adhesive.

There is a significant differece between PVA wood glues and some of the other types of wood adhesives (e.g. slow set epoxy, liquid hide glue, hot hide glue, and polyurethane glue). Taunton Press ran some interesting comparison tests in conjunction with a university in Ohio. They demonstrated, for example, that for wood applications polyurethane had only about half the strength of PVA; hide glues had about two thirds the strength of PVA.

Individual manufacturers (e.g. Titebond) will often publish comparative data for their various types of adhesive to highlight application suitability (e.g. indoor or outdoor, open working time etc.), but I have not seen much in the way of definitive test data for the the various brands of PVA based wood glue.

There are plenty of anecdotes about Titebond versus Corner Weld versus Maxim, etc., but very little published scientific test data. It's like beer, everyone has their favorite, but any one of them will get you inebriated!!!!

In the US glues are tested using ASTM D-905 (a different protocol is used in Europe). Under D-905, bond strength is published in PSI at both room temperature and at 150 degrees.

Personally I doubt that there is much practical difference between any of the commonly used PVA wood glues in a picture framing application. For example, the various Titebond PVA products have a room temperature bond strength of between 3000 and 4000 PSI, which is way beyond any stress likely to be placed on a frame. It is far more likely that the wood will fail before the PVA. Assuming of course the framer has used the adhesive correctly, which may well not be the case because of lack of training or the practical realities of churning out work.

Hope this helps in some small way.
 
Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply. This is a great forum. Everyone is so helpful, not like some of the others I have been on. Some of the jokes on here have been outstanding. I am still laughing. Wow!!!!! what a great group.
 
We use acrylic solvent every day. We normally use weld-on #4. Of course we have had enough practice to be pretty good at using it since I'm sure we've done several thousand frames over the past 37 plus years. We have never found weld-on to be a successful cement for wood or even acrylic to wood. Very few things actually stick to acrylic. By the way the correct term for "plexiglas or acrylite or other like products is ACRYLIC. The others are brand names. Unless you are speaking of polycarbonate and remember there are about a zillion kinds of "plastic" and acrylic is the preferred material for picture framing. Just my 2 cents and I think that's only worth something less than a penny now.
 
Ray, we live in Tifton, Georgia. We have just recently moved here from Atlanta. We still have a home there, but prefer to be here most of the time.I see you are from Toccoa. I have visited there many times on photo shoots. Tifton is about 55miles from the Florida line, a very small quiet town.
 
Thedra said:
Racking is when the left side 0f the frame goes east while the right side goes west and yes mitered joint do rack and racking ranks up there as the easiest way to break a miter joint.

Tom
Click to expand...

Obviously they don't cover that on the MCPF test; but I do remember it being in the coursework for the MCRS, in fact "racking" is the most efficient way to control a turn on a larger motorcycle at speed.

As for picture frames the coplanar nature of duel miters is the biggest reason that glue without any mechanical shear prevention is the fastest path to failure.
 
Hey Baer - doesn't racking also have something to do with playing pool or when you are aligning a car on a oval race track...I got a lot to learn now I have to know how the drive a car and play pool to be able to build a frame...go figure:DJB
 
Don't know nuttin' about cars and oval tracks.... but from age 12 on I almost exclusively rode motorcycles and drove trucks. A few cars (MG, 280Z, 911T, Spider, AH3000, Dat2000, a few VWs, Hudson Hornet, and 59 Buick La Sabre and 5 different pickups), but in 1996 sold motorcycle #49. Haven't really had any strong enough urge to go out and throw good money at #50.
But I do OK on a regulation pool table; well, at least I know where all five pockets are.... :D
 
Are we supposed to know what "racking" is?
Click to expand...

Baer Charlton said:
Obviously they don't cover that on the MCPF test; but I do remember it being in the coursework for the MCRS, in fact "racking" is the most efficient way to control a turn on a larger motorcycle at speed.
Click to expand...

No, Baer, the MCPF exam does not include motorcycle turning techniques. It is about framing, as was this thread.

Dear Grumblers, I apologize for asking the question, thereby triggering Bear's irrelevent smokescreen of diversionary humor, which only derailed the worthy discussion.
 
Jim Miller said:
No, Baer, the MCPF exam does not include motorcycle turning techniques. It is about framing, as was this thread.

Dear Grumblers, I apologize for asking the question, thereby triggering Bear's irrelevent smokescreen of diversionary humor, which only derailed the worthy discussion.
Click to expand...

Mr Kettle, meet Mr Pot.....

You did not spawn the motorcycle inference, Joe did, so don't try to take credit.

But I did find your questioning the validity of having to understand racking in picture framing to either be coming from ignorance (which I don't credit you with), or insulting to the intelligence of this community. Either, I find offensive to this craft, and would expect better of you as an educator and respected member of this society.

[Note to Susan May: yes, I did think about deleting this.... for all of about as long as it took me to join three frames and steam over a cup of coffee.]
 
Oh well, I guess I won't try to make any more jokes...to many people with thin skin and no sense of humor, but I'm not so funny anyway so no one will be missing anything. From now on, straight and narrow...very boring with no levity what-so-ever...by the way, I have a Bridge for sale in Brooklyn...any takers??
 
Joe B said:
Oh well, I guess I won't try to make any more jokes...to many people with thin skin and no sense of humor, but I'm not so funny anyway so no one will be missing anything. From now on, straight and narrow...very boring with no levity what-so-ever...by the way, I have a Bridge for sale in Brooklyn...any takers??
Click to expand...

:D :) :D :)
 
Jim Miller said:
Dear Grumblers, I apologize for asking the question, thereby triggering Bear's irrelevent smokescreen of diversionary humor, which only derailed the worthy discussion.
Click to expand...

jasper194 said:
Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply. This is a great forum. Everyone is so helpful, not like some of the others I have been on. Some of the jokes on here have been outstanding. I am still laughing. Wow!!!!! what a great group.
Click to expand...


Hmm, the guy who started the thread appreciates the jokes. . .

Go figure
 
Uncle Eli said:
Hmm, the guy who started the thread appreciates the jokes. . .

Go figure
Click to expand...
You bet I do, so keep um coming. What makes you think I'm a guy? Does it matter? Just curious. I just loved the one about Walmart and the age groups. Actually, I don't see it as a joke, I really believe its the truth. It fits perfectly for both men and women. Just my take tho. LOL I'm a people watcher in my spare time.
 
loosehorse said:
Many threads get derailed from their original topics by many people....my 2 cents for the day.
Click to expand...

We prefer the term Frankenthreaded. :) Take it as a compliment, if you don't get frankenthreaded it's because no one is reading your thread. I think if you get franknthreaded in the first page it is because we are comfortable with you and know you'll appreciate thewisdom of our responses. Besides after framing for years the attention span gets decreased to the point where for some of us a gnat's attention span is too long!
 
Tony B

Hello everyone. This is my first post. I've been reading the Grumble for awhile and finally decided to join. I've learned quite a lot from you pros. I use Titebond III, but first apply a 50/50 mix with water, and after about 60-90 seconds, I apply Titebond III full-strength. The first application keeps the wood from soaking up most of the glue. It has worked well for me on my wood mouldings.
 
That's often called "pre-gluing", and it's a good thing to do, especially with wood that is very porous. Many of the newer mouldings are on soft, porous woods that benefit from pre-gluing.

"TiteBond III Ultimate" may be overkill for framing applications. Even the cheapest TiteBond "All-Purpose White" glue is stronger than the wood it bonds, as are nearly all of the frame glues commonly sold through framing dstributors.

The framer's choice among the many PVA and polyaliphatic resin glues is less important than the framer's care in using it.

Welcome, Zebrawolf.
 
Thanks for the info, Jim. I've read many of your articles and have great respect for you as a framer and teacher. I came here as guest for awhile, and needed some help with framing a military burial flag, so today I decided to join so I could pick the brains of you guys. I'm like a kid going to his first major league ballgame who gets to visit the players in the dugout. I love this stuff! Thank you for welcoming me aboard. -Tony
 
Welcome Zebrawolf (where did the name come from?) This can be a place to learn, I have learned a lot here and hopefully will not outlive my welcome; I do ask a lot of questions - and I sometimes makes comments that may not be welcome/appreciated by all.
 
Island View Jake said:
I was told that you shouldn't use glue in mitre joints as they need to breathe !!!!!!
Click to expand...

Oh, no. You must glue miters, because if miters were allowed to breathe, they would take in airborne pollutants and start to cough. I've never actually heard of that happening, but the theory is that a coughing frame might lose its grip on the wall and fall to the floor, which could cause severe congestion in the miters.

Can you imagine anything more tragic than severely congested miters?
:icon11:
 
Wouldn't the snot hold things together?

:icon11:
 
Can't say fairer than this.....

stickslike.jpg


Found this on a website this morning. Never used it.:D

2 questions...

Is it available in the U.S.?

If so has anyone tried it and If so does it? :)
 
Hope this is some real use

Prospero I have never used nor seen this adhesive. But since you asked and since I have no real work to do , I decided to do what some others do and Browse the Internet. LOL

I looked under the heading of Sticks like Sh*t Glue MSDS

If memory serves me from my days in the oil refinery all such substances should have a "Material Safety and Data Sheet" ( MSDS) provided with it to comply with OSHA standards . This appears to be a Non-US product but still since many International Vendors have to Comply with ISO I suspect this may be helpful.

At any rate if you look at the very end of this link I think you may find even the international Phone Number of the vendors.

I also think the add shows the symbol for POUNDS which gives this stuff a definet British flavor.
But give this a look;

http://www.maccaferri.co.uk/images/library/00889.pdf

However I do think the Parent co. Bostik has branches in the USA;
http://www.bostik.co.uk/corporate/comphistory


BUDDY

While not from OSHA nor ISO the glossary of woodwork from LOWES says;
Racking: Force exerted that twists the components of a joint in opposite directions.

But from what my poor memory tells me from working with My very precise Hand tool skilled father of a Carpenter it would make a frame or other wooden structure look something akin to either a Rhombus or Parallelogram.

As opposed to what some refer to as :Twist: A type of warping that causes boards to curl in more than one direction from end to end.

But then I may be speaking about stuff I know nothing of since, My dad couldn't stand all the Carpentry errors I made with a much better formal education than he ever had. LMAO
 
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