Opinions Wanted beginner needs help with cross nailing

Create a Post
AdamK

AdamK

Grumbler
Joined
Nov 17, 2023
Posts
22
Location
San Diego, CA
Business
Hobby
Hi all

I am newer to framing (hobby) and am trying to cross nail my frames as I do not have access to an underpinned. The molding is in a stanley 400 and I’ve run into a few problems.

Problem 1: when cross nailing , the joint gets separated
Problem 2: sometimes my nail punch/setter is skidding off the nail and damaging the fame (I am only using this for the last 2mm or so).

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to correct for the above?

I am currently not waiting any amount of time between gluing and nailing, should I be waiting?
Is there a special nail set that would hold onto the nail better? I am currently using an a 20mm nail as opposed to a brad.

Thank you!
 
As a first step I would highly recommend an air powered brad or pin nailer. If you don’t have compressed air available there are probably battery options out there.

A powered nailer/pinner will seat the fastener with virtually no shock, because it’s so fast.

If the above is not possible, the best advice I can give is, allow the joint to cure completely before nailing. And, if hard(er) wood, pre-drilling may be necesssary.
 
Are you pre drilling before nailing?
You should predrill a slightly smaller hole before nailing, if not there could be problems, like the corner getting knocked apart.
Especially on Hardwoods.

When using a nail set, put the wide portion against the nail, and hammer the nail set until the nail is flush with the frame.
Then you flip the nail set over and use the small point to hammer in the last 1/16"
 
Thanks for the input. I have not been predrilling. I was watching a Vivian Kistler video where she suggested just using a nail to drill, rather than a traditional drill bit, Do you have any input on this? Video starts at timestamp where she discusses it

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


I have a feeling I might go for a battery-powered option; in theory, a pin nailer would give me a smaller hole and less to clean up, right?

Also, when the glue is curing, should I leave the joint in the vise?
 
Last edited:
My first job in a frame shop was standing next to a Stanley 400 and joining corners using a 10oz hammer, various sizes of wire brads, and a nail set, for eight to ten hours a day. I like this method because I have more control than with an air operated pin nailer, which I also have, and have blown nails out the sides of frames.

If your corners are opening, maybe you need to tighten the vise a bit more? If you're hand nailing and you see the joint start to move, you at least have a chance to correct it.

Are you having trouble with hard or softwood? Hardwood definitely takes more effort to sink a brad.

When I join hardwood frames, I snip the point off and drive in the blunted end. I sometimes just use the vise and hit the brad with the hammer as if I were trying to drive it into the metal to blunt the point. This causes the wood fibers to crush, rather than split. Pre-drilling can sometimes create a larger hole that doesn’t hold the brad as well. This is an old woodworker's trick, I didn't invent it, but I've used it with success.

My method is to set the corner up, remove one leg and glue it, replace and realign it and nail it right away. I might wait to remove it at this point depending on how strong the joint feels or how big the frame is.

Finally, I swear by CornerWeld glue. It sets up faster, dries clear, remains just a little flexible and is stronger than Titebond.

Good luck!
 
I would suggest that "cross nailing" is not the way to go. Placing nails in one direction is sufficient.

I have repaired thousands of frame corners, some well over 100 years old, and if they are cross nailed they are often damaged more by installing nails from two sides of the joint. For the most part, the old framers and woodworkers did not cross nail the corner joints .
 
This is the way I do it.

Assemble the frame on a bench and apply Titebond glue to all four mitres.
Run a band clamp around the frame and tighten slowly so as to close all the mitres.
Wiggle the sides until you have a perfect looking joint.
Now tighten up the band clamp and leave the frame over-night.

Next day, insert one of the framing pins into the chuck of your drill.
Stand the frame up on a hard surface, or the floor if it's big and drill a pilot hole down into each mitre.
Take JFeig's advice - you don't need to cross pin.
And don't bother with the framing vise, too fiddly.

Now tap in the nails with your pin-hammer and use a suitable sized punch to countersink the nail head.
All you need then is some filler to make good the hole.
 
This is my four penneth.....

First of all I would never nail a joint after the glue has set. Nailing is a violent process and you run
the risk of compromising the glue bond. Just my take on it....
I always drill a pilot hole - just deep enough to just penetrate into the 'other' side of the joint. This ensures
that the joint cannot displace as you hit the nail. For the same reason I like to insert the two nails at once and
giving each a tap alternatively.

A strap clamp is good - as long as you have room to nail around it. Better than that (with a slight caveat) are
spring clamps. All the framers I knew when I started used these. They leave a divot but if you are filling the nail
holes then it's not a big prob to fill the divot at the same time. You can generally nail with the clamp on.

* Once the nails are set you can take the clamps off if you need them for the next frame.

spring clamp.webp
 
Just for interest, this is an 'old school' framing clamp.

I bought this in a sale years ago and it was obsolete then. I use it sometimes though. You can
get massive pressure on with it.

vice001.webp
vice002.webp
 
Further to my post, I can totally understand Prospero's misgivings about the shock of hammering a nail into a glued mitre.

First of all, the combination of the pressure from a tightened band-clamp and the use of a premium wood glue like Titebond 3 will give you a very strong jointed frame indeed.
Next is me saying that i don't just drill a pilot hole but that I sink as much of the pin into the frame as possible with the drill.
This leaves only a few mm of nail to hammer in to sink the nail.

When completed it's the glue which holds the mitres closed and the nails which help prevent the corners flexing.
 
As mentioned by others, I would not cross-nail, but would nail each miter only on the side rails, so the nails would be horizontal when the frame hangs. If you nail on the top rails, the nails would hang vertically and could pull out over time, due to gravitational force on the frame. That said, some framers prefer nailing the top rails, because the nail holes are not visible from the sides, but nailing the side rails is more secure.

Unlike Prospero, I absolutely would nail after the glue dries. However, I would make sure the entire miter surface is covered with glue and thoroughly dried, and I would leave the miter in the tightened vise (assuming you use Stanley 400 type vises) to eliminate stress on the joint during nailing. Predrill using a brad of the same size used on the miters, which also reduces the impact of nailing. Just cut the head off the brad before you put it in the drill's chuck.

To avoid the nail-set slipping off the head of the nail, drive it in as far as possible, as described by others above, and then practice, practice, practice holding the nail-set straight and steady as you tap to recess the brad. No rocket science here, but technique is important.
 
Last edited:
For those "hammer challenged" people there used to be a tool made from a piece of slotted metal with a rubber cushion that sat on the wood rail. The function was to protect the wood from being dented when attempting to hit the nail.

Regarding the nailsets. The end that strikes the nail's head are intentionally machined either flat or dimpled. If you are using an old, abused nailset this end might not be up to specifications and can cause the nailset to slide off the nail head. This is a good feature to check for wear.
 
JFeig said:
Regarding the nailsets. The end that strikes the nail's head are intentionally machined either flat or dimpled. If you are using an old, abused nailset this end might not be up to specifications and can cause the nailset to slide off the nail head. This is a good feature to check for wear.
Click to expand...
I think it depends on the intended application. True "finish nails" such as those used in architectural trim, have a dimple in the head of the nail, so you want the nail set end to be small enough (and it can even be pointed) to fit in the dimple.
 
As you can see, there are many ways to do it.
Find one that works for you.

Surprisingly no one has mentioned underpinning, the most common method of inserting metal into a frame corner.
This is a cheap handheld version. It works better than expected, but definitely could be better: https://www.amazon.com/meite-Nailer-V1015B-Pneumatic-Picture/dp/B00WSPG9XM/ref=sims_dp_d_dex_ai_speed_loc_mtl_v5_t1_d_sccl_3_1/135-7446381-9617330?pd_rd_w=c3L6P&content-id=amzn1.sym.526d27b3-2efe-4f81-8a09-4d61e1515e3b&pf_rd_p=526d27b3-2efe-4f81-8a09-4d61e1515e3b&pf_rd_r=YJ9THQZG2KG3V2JZ4RYJ&pd_rd_wg=6xYbm&pd_rd_r=d1a7b47a-10cb-48b0-982b-5b5b81dd73f5&pd_rd_i=B00WSPG9XM&psc=1 Amazon.com
 
This is a tool that I also got in a sale. (£5 in think...). I use it all the time - mainly for fixing in liners.

It's original use was knocking in cross-pins. It avoids a conventional hammer 'slipping' and damaging
something. It's rather like a slide hammer used for pulling out dents in car bodywork, but it pushes instead
of pulling. I not sure anything like it is still available today, which is a shame because it handy for general
pinning. Especially in awkward corners.

Interestingly it's branded Morso. 😁

pogger.webp
 
update: i found a used ryobi pin nailer in my area for very cheap and I purchased and it is working great. Thank you all for your advice.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top