BB or not?

cc-boss

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Posts
6
Loc
Midwest
Hi all,

I'm about to embark on a new journey that will open up to 40 new frame shops. The framing will be done out of current retail establishments that have offered frames in the past, but not CUSTOM framing. Just had an off the wall question for those of you that have been here a long time, and have often had less than positive things to say about the "Big Boxes." What constitutes a big box? Is it volume? Client base? Market share? Or is it the fact that they offer other services that are their primary source of revenue and that they are now starting to offer framing as a side business?

Sorry I can't give you much more information about the exact operation that I'll be running, but things are still in the very early stages and I want to keep things a little quiet for the moment.

Thanks in advance for any and all information you might have on the subject.
 
Why would you come onto this forum and ask a question like that when you just told us that you are going to be competing for the market shares of 40 stores, and then not be willing to provide us with any real information on who you are and where these stores are going, and to top it off you just signed up on this forum today with no info about yourself on your profile. I think enough of us have been dealing with companies who are just in this industry to reap what they can from it and leave it to the waste side once they are done. GOOD LUCK
 
I opened a short lived chain of stores in the northeast called Corners. They went down the tubes after 2 years after opening 50 stores in NY NJ PA Con.
If you are smart you will jump ship before it pulls you under.
I opened my own store from scrastch after a lot of training at local Mom and Pop stores and must say the level of training and profesionality is at an incredibly high level at the real framing stores run by people not corporations.
You want to know how to attach velum I can help you, you want to know how to hurt many of the people on this site across the midwest...go scratch.
 
Sammy,

Rest assured that none of the locations will be anywhere near where you are. I'm not trying to stir up negative feelings or problems. I really feel that the shops will have a minimal impact on the current shops in the areas where they will be. I'm looking to appeal to a market that might not be currently framing at the moment. I'm fairly certain that all of us would love to tap into a new market if the possibility was there.

I don't believe that JoAnn's, Michaels, Hobby Lobby, or any other shops out there that are the quote-unquote Big Boxes are really stealing the market share from framers that have a loyal client base. I've been in the framing business for the past decade (I know that makes me a relative newcomer compared to a lot of you) and I haven't noticed a huge impact due to the BBs out there. I feel that I offer a great product at a great price and that my customers appreciate the professionalism that I offer to them. What I see happening is that they are appealing to a new type of customer that would like to do framing. Not all of the people out there have known that we exist, or if they do, they are afraid of the price thay might get. When they see the adds ot a place that they equate with lower prices, they jump on the idea that they can get something framed nicely. I agree that they don't realize that they can get it framed in your shop for pretty much the same price.

I think the main reason that businesses are failing right now is that the majority of the customers that we once had have fallen on some hard times in regard to the economy of the past several years.
 
I find the audacity of your post on the verge of jaw-dropping...
You are apparently sipping the koolaid, or more probably just a few bricks short of a load.
 
Originally posted by cc-boss:

I don't believe that JoAnn's, Michaels, Hobby Lobby, or any other shops out there that are the quote-unquote Big Boxes are really stealing the market share from framers that have a loyal client base.
I think Missouri is considered to be in the Midwest... What are you planning on doing? Do you really think the market is here to be opening 40 new stores without ripping some hard earned business away from small shops? Sorry I just find that hard to believe....
Angie
 
What constitutes a "big box?" Ignoring the reason for the question for a moment, I think it's an interesting one?

Certainly volume plays a role, but I usually think of a "BB" has having primarily transient help, usually other products (but not always), multiple locations (that volume thing again), but the biggest thing that identifies a "BB" to me is a huge advertising budget and "discount" promotions that aren't really.
 
What Cliff said......plus they are generally the size of a flippin football field or two. I think that is where the term Big Box came into play. Big ugly box buildings that nobody else wants after they set up shop and suck what they can out of the local economy and then they pull up stakes and move on to the next big thing leaving behind a big ugly box that nobody wants after they are gone.

We have an area here that had several BB stores that abandoned their locations in favor of newer digs. They even continue to pay on their leases so the Big Box's remain vacant. Meanwhile all the little business's who are or were located in these BB centers are now gone........used to be one of the busiest streets in the city and now it is like a ghost town.

But I digressed, sorry. Just had a politician type who is stumping to force these BB business's to find tenants for their big empty box buildings. He says the city looks like there is lots of developement going on but these business's are leaving a lot of blight in their attempt to move on. another reason these BB stores do not serve our communities well.

Oh well, back to the topic at hand!

[ 04-22-2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]
 
Kathy,
I really like your idea of what a BB is. Mine was closer to Cliff's, but now I'm going to reconsider it.
 
cc-boss - Based on the content of your posts it seems you might want to look into some business classes before you jump into this venture. Your understanding of the market is a bit suspect - I'd hate to see you get in over your head. Just MHO of course.
 
Yeah David, I was looking at Big Box's as a whole, not just the ones in our industry. I don't want to walk the size of two football fields to get a quart of milk so I really rebel against these stores. I hate them.
 
BB
National chain
non-personal attention
large stores
large ad budget
offers other services/products
they are in it for the money only
 
Despite your being the one who is aksing and my suspicions about the wisdom of repling to my competition ,even if you aren't in my geographical area as yet you probably soon will be( as many others would agree); I think this is a topic which we on TFG need to clearly define .To assure that we are comparing apples to apples when ever we speak about "BB".

I am not sure if my opinion matches any other but it does come close with some notable exceptions.

BB Displays many of the following ,but doesn't need to display ALL of these to match the title.However most do display most of these.

Chain store operation ( large or small ,local or national)but multple outlets where ever they operate.
Non -indusrty educated employees( maybe even partimers)
large stores (sq. Footage)
large budgets in all departments ( not just advertisement)
Offers multiple services/products
They are in it for as much money as they can make without concern for the industry.
They don't care who they have to step on to make that profit.( includeing driveing the competition out of the matket)

They demand specialized ,personalized treatment and Priceing from Vendors and suppliers ( above what even the best volume discount allows to all others,and maybe even denieing sales reps to sell to them,so as to even save the commisions)So that they can undercut the competitions sales and still make a profit while forceing the competition to fold for not being able to match their offers.
BUDDY

[ 04-22-2005, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
Hey come on guys, some of you said they are only there to make money. That part is okay, I am here to just make money also........I'm sure has heck not here for my mental health. That has been shot full of holes the past month or so. Nope, I am here to just make money too. None of that framing feeds my soul crap here. I could just as well be selling door knobs, as long as I am making money.
 
Could this also be one of those things similar to your congressman? You dislike and distrust everyone except your own? (Answers to that may belong on another thread.
)

I personally like Lowe's. I don't know a thing about them except that ours is huge, well stocked with good prices and plentiful, friendly help...most of the time. So I'm not going to lump them into a pejorative BB category, I guess.

It's an interesting question in light of all the press lately about whether or not WalMart is evil or the best business model ever. Depends on your corner?
 
WOW! Like bring out the CLAWS and FANGS!! And we don't even know if CC-Boss is a real person or Ron's Tape pulling a fast one...

Let's see . . . what constitutes a big box . . well if your going to work and there is a 30' tall sign above the door that says WalMart, Home Depot, Michael's, Best Buy, K Mart, Sears . . that may be your first clue.

If the manager of the frameshop is refered to as a "Department Head", that might be your second clue.

If the "Certified Framer" at the design counter was asking if you would like fries with that; just four months ago... Clue #3.

If the parking lot is larger than a football field and it isn't striped for sports...#4?

If when they train the original crew for the store, there is a flag-raising early morning pep talk and rousing company cheer??? slim chance it ain't anything but #5

If washers and dryers are in section 3 floor 2, kids clothes are main floor section 2, jewelry is 3rd floor and next to the custom framing??? Bingo.

If as you say, you're in the midwest, I would hazard the guess that Sear's "At Home" stores are expanding, or some brainiac figured that college students would spend custom framing dollars if it was just offered in the bookstore.

But then, that's just my HO thinking out of turn.
 
Hmmmmmm,
interesting.
BB's not locally owned and my assumption is they are somewhat predatory.
They definately can have good selection, good customer service and good price points.
Even if I don't like Wal Mart; guess what, the rest of the world does.
definatly worth another Hmmmm.
 
CC-Boss,

Just curious, can you tell us where in the midwest you are located and if these 40 shops will be in the midwest?
 
Hey, I get it!

CC-Boss. Circuit City is going to be offering custom framing??

I donno. I happen to like Circuit City, though they are definitely a Big Box. I've had mostly good buying experiences there - especially when contrasted with Best Buy, just a short distance away.

But I don't think custom picture framing is going to be a good fit for Circuit City.

You've got balls. I'll give you that.
 
Framing Plasma TVs??????

Ron, a BB is what you store your frame samples in before burning thm isn't it????
 
First off, let me apologize if I've stepped on any toes out there. The discussion after the first several comments is really what I was looking for in this post. As for locale, I'd still rather not get into the nuts and bolts of that, but I can assure you of several things. We won't be in any of the cities from any of the posts that I've just read through on here. I'm also not all that sure if we would fit into any of the definitions of what a BB is...

Again, the purpose of my post was simply to ascertain what the common definition of a BB is from the people that are concerned with them on a regular basis.

Thanks again for any input you might have given.

Oh, BTW, This isn't Stanley....
 
I know exactly what a big box is. Most of them sale items or what we like to call “retail”.

I can't give you much more information. I want to keep things a little quiet for the moment.

I hope that helps but you know I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts.

Man this is good fun! Maybe we can play the hot or cold game or 20 questions. I just love a good mystery.

-signed-
Fred, Velma, Daphne, Shaggy, and Scooby Doo
 
Ron, a BB is what you store your frame samples in before burning thm isn't it????
No, Tim.

A Big Box is what they're going to be putting me in if I burn any more corner samples in the fireplace.

Edit: Oh, man! I made this thread go to two pages??

This is NOT a thread that needed to go to two pages.
 
this is NOT a thread that needed to go to two pages.
Sure it is!

But, Ron, you’ve got it all wrong. “CC” is gotta be <u>CostCo</u>: he’s planning to sell custom framing in bulk.
 
cc's question reminded me of William Parker's recent article in Framing Business News. Whereas (The way I read it) It would behoove us to consider preframed Chinese art as a lower price point in our "Custom" shops, and not try to actually make the cheaper stuff to sell to our customers, but use it to get them in the door. Esentially taking the "Custom" out of Custom Framing up until the point that they really have something they want to protect and cherish rather than eventually dispose of.

Don't know if will work, but then again I don't know if I'll be working next month.
 
I bet this is Bob Carter messing with us! Maybe even Warren Tucker. It really is easy to pitch a grenade in a room and see which way the people run.

All that I am saying is this; If you have the kind of money to open 40 stores, it would be better spent in a different industry. I would rather own 10 SubWay franchises than 40 custom frame shops.

I met a guy that dropped 200K in a Fast Frame, fed it for 3 years and gave up. He feels he lost about 400K in the venture.

Let's just say a fool and his money is soon parted.
 
Jerry;
I have to ask, did a franchise, or FastFrame do something to you personally? The reason that I ask is that this is the second post in as many days that you bring up FastFrame (or franchises), in a disparaging light.

I can name you many people that have ‘fed a business’ for years only to have it go belly up, and amazingly enough, it was not even the framing industry. Heck, I met a lady here in my town that had a custom framing shop for years, fed it a large amount of money, only to have it go belly up, and it was a seasoned framer, as an independent. I can also name many FastFrame owners that have been in business for years and are doing quite well.
 
cc-boss
but I can assure you of several things. We won't be in any of the cities from any of the posts that I've just read through on here.
Ok, how about all the ones who haven't posted?
shrug.gif
 
DenKym

No problems at all. I know several franchise owners. Not just FF but GreatFrameUps also.

It just seems that more of them is closing than independents. I don't have the slightest idea why. Anything I offer is only speculation. Maybe it is because of the locations they are in. Being in a mall or very prominent location requires a big rent check. If business slips for all of us, the ones paying the highest rent suffers the most.

There was also a Joann's located directly in the middle of my two locations that closed, Salisbury NC. Also, Garden Ridge is operating in Chapter 11.

Small drop in business, high rent?

Then again, you will never make it in a poor location either.
 
David, by no stretch of the imagination is Lubbock in the mid-west.

Chicago is, though, and I am now convinced that CC-Boss is Chicago Cubs manager Dusty Baker. Wrigley Field is definitely a big box, but somebody left the top off.

There you have it. The Chicago Cubs are going to begin offering custom picture framing.
 
Close but no cigar, Ron. LaRussa is the steroid development manager for the St. Louis Cardinals.

Craig Ponzio is the Chicago Cub's manager.
 
Did I say Tony La Russa? I meant Dusty Baker.

Really, the only team I follow closely is the Milwaukee Braves.
 
Could be Charlie chips or Coca Cola or CC from the 90's hair band Poison... this guy could be anybody...
Cup Cakes, Closed Curtain, County Choppers?
Their all gonna be framing... those bastards!

I think I'm gonna move to the woods.
 
Maybe it's Canadian Club Whiskey.

Would you like a CC and 7 while we design your picture? Wouldn't that increase your average price.
 
Since we have completely digressed (and having a good time doing it), I remember shopping in the Carribean and all the Rum punch you wanted was free,and in Mexico most shopps had tables set up with free Tequila.

I think the idea was that if the guys could suck up some free booz they wouldn't rush the Ladies and the counter people could make longer sales pitches. Also if the ladies had a few ,they were less alert to what they were spending and on what.

So Maybe the CC and 7 isn't too far fetched an idea.LOL Only trouble is down here in N'Awlins we measure things by how many drinks or pints it takes to complete the task so you'd better be well stocked .ROTFWLMAO
BUDDY
 
Whoa. You guys get vicious on a Saturday night. :D

I don't see cc-boss steppin' back in here to finish his gernade dance thou...
thumbsup.gif


I'm still votin' on Sear's. "The Glassier side of Sear's".
 
My only meager question is, "If you have enough money to open 40 large stores, why would you? Why do you need to?" Sit back and enjoy life!

If you're financially able, and willing to open 40 stores, are you competing to be the first "un-named, no location given, can't say what we sell" business in the Midwest?

Some millionaires can't sleep at night, thinking there's a dollar bill that fell out of someone's pocket.

Personally, and I mean no offense, I think CC-boss is full of it. Won't divulge any information, but has the milking-maching running wide open to milk US for ideas, info, etc.
 
Originally posted by cc-boss:
...I think the main reason that businesses are failing right now is that the majority of the customers that we once had have fallen on some hard times in regard to the economy of the past several years.
If you're serious about launching forty copies of a new retail concept, your potential investors certainly must be asking you to support your conclusion that the economy is the "main reason" for the changes in our industry.

I don't care about your concept's details or where you plan to open stores, but would you care to further explain your statement, which is a direct contradiction of current consumer research data?
 
Jim,

I'm not planning on opening 40 completly new retail shops. I'm going to be managing the expansion operation of adding framing to stores that have been established for years. As for my statement of past customers, that's been my experience with my shops. No hard numbers, no gallup poll, just what I've seen. I really don't feel I've lost business to large chain shops, as a matter of fact, I feel I've gained a lot of clients from shoddy workmanship. BB stores have the advertising budget to get new customers interested in framing. People that would never have walked into our doors in the past. If they can fulfill the expectations of those customers, great. However I've seen that they fall short a good bit of the time and I get a new customer out of having to fix their mistakes.

I didn't post my question to "milk" information from anyone here on the Grumble. What has been the only question I've asked? I simply asked what the common definition of a BB store was according to people on here. If that's giving away trade secrets, then by all means be offended.

Baer,

I've not been neglecting to post, or avoiding the topic at hand. I choose to spend my Sunday's with my family and my faith.


Again, I did not mean to cause any ill will by asking a simple question. By looking at some of the posts in the archives, I gathered that the people on here were rather solid individuals that would be willing to answer a simple question honestly without attacking the person asking the question.
 
I think it's Captain Crunch. Framing on the cereal aisle. The perfect place to trap soccer moms and their spawn. Brilliant.
 
Personally, I think that if you marketed yourself as a retail manager (after all you did say you'll be managing the outlets)that you should be more than well versed in retail strategies such as those that constitute a "Big Box". By no means should it need explaining to someone with enough experience to oversee 40 in-store locations. I as your employer would be somewhat concerned that, one you didn't know that and two that you would raise issues on a pending expansion operation on the internet. Managerial attributes those are not but as competition I couldn't think of someone I'd rather have running the show.

icon21.gif
 
C.C.
All I can say is, "Good Luck!" I assure you, it will not be nearly as easy as you think. I was part of an experiment of this nature that went horribly wrong. To do it well, do it right, and make it stick is not as simple as it may appear.

I get the sense from your previous posts that you are a frame shop/business owner who has been approached to take on this venture. Yes?

Have you ever managed multi-unit retail operations? With 40 locations, your stores must be in more than one state. Managing a framing business in one store, or multiple stores in one city, or even one state is lightyears easier than having to cross state borders. Especialy when you only get to see a particular store once a month or every other month. Try bringing operational consistancy with that scenario. Tried it, and it don't work! At least not without a tremendous amount of upper management support. When you add all of those costs in, and suddenly your model is not terribly proffitable.

To accomplish your objective of 40 stores without the right infrastucture, operating policies and procedures, and of course people is no simple task. Take a good look at how this sucker will operate before you dive in with the sharks.

As for your original question, I see two definitions:
1. A Big Box store would be as you described. A chain of stores that offer framing as one part of a larger product mix. Framing as a departmant like Housewares for example.
2. A chain of high or low volume picture framing stores with many units that are directed by an offsite corporate structure, manufacturing, and distribution.

Again,
Good Luck.
Harry
 
Originally posted by MAX:
Christian Coalition. They're putting framing kiosks into existing Christian bookstores. Prime locations. Loyal customers. Increasingly affluent demographic.
And no bad checks!
thumbsup.gif
 
A box is something you can place things in. A small box will only hold a few, or even just one small item. A really small box can hold lots and lots of little bitty things, or maybe just one really small thing.

Next step up is medium size boxes, they will hold lots more stuff than a small box.

We then go to a big box, a big box will hold much more stuff than a medium box. We are now getting into the realm of structural stability. Loading up a large box with too much stuff can cause the bottom to fall out, you will need a much bigger, stronger box.

Is anyone starting to catch on yet?

John
 
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