Basement framing

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dtwalls

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
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6
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Cumming,GA
Hello to everyone. Ienjoy reading the topics every day, and they continue to increase my knowledge of the "forever growing framing world". I have been framing for friends and family on the side of my regular job for years now, without any objections from my employer. What I am truely curious to find out is how to operate a "basement frame shop" out of your home, and still be able to recieve good quality products without a "store front". I have enough equipment but need regular supplies. This is something that I would like to pursue in my free time. I am allowed to use all accounts in the store for whatever I may need, but would prefer to keep this on the side. In otherwords I don't plan to leave my current job, but would like to begin building a base that I can gain a little extra income (framers dont exactly earn a ton of money, as I'm sure you all know!!). Any suggestions would be helpful. Larson won't even consider the thought, nor will studio or southern. Any ideas?
 
I'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying that you are presently working at a framing shop and framing on the side at home? Are you saying that your present employer is OK with this, because I know I wouldn't!

If that's not the case, where are you presently getting your supplies now?

There has always been an issue about basement framers when it comes to supplies and I am unclear as to why Suppliers will sell to some and not to others. Many of us started at home before we moved into store front operations. There are many here on the G that frame at home, are very successful at it and recieve any supplies they need from the big suppliers including Larson. I started framing at home before I opened my own shop and I had no difficulty getting frames, mats, etc from a number of suppliers (Larson included).

For the record, I closed my shop a few years ago and I'm now framing for a small chain of photography studios of which I recently took over the managment of one of the stores. I would never consider framing "on the side". To me it is a HUGE conflict of interest.

Ted.
 
When I first started working in a frame shop in the 70's, I would often order things for friends of mine (all regular prices) and take the materials home to fit them. I would "make" the fitting charge. My boss knew what I was doing and was fine with it.

However, I did not do "framing" on the side while I worked there. (I did just about every other craft in the book ie macrame, etc, but that's another story!) I would never have used his accounts, in fact, I don't think it crossed my mind to do so.

I always had the desire to own my own shop, that much I remember (that was a loooong time ago). So when I quit work, and after my boys were old enough for me to work again, I began researching where to find suppliers. And the rest is history.

Now, as an employer, I have stated in my employee handbook the discount rated for an employee "having a piece framed" and the discount for "doing it your self" and for "doing it yourself before or after hours". I wouldn't mind if my employee did a few for family etc, but I certainly wouldn't like it (and it would be grounds for dismissal in my opinion) if they were using my resources for supplies, my ideas for marketing, and especially my customer base, for their own enterprise.

On the other hand, advice has been given on this forum to "apprentice for another framer" in order to learn the trade before you start your own shop. How is this any different?

I dunno, somehow this just doesn't feel right...

Betty
 
Hmmm... I agree with Betty. I'd have big problems with an employee using my accounts and store resources to build his or her own business on the side, especially without my knowledge. Either work for me and learn, or start your own business. You can't have it both ways.
 
Originally posted by dtwalls:
I am allowed to use all accounts in the store for whatever I may need, but would prefer to keep this on the side. In otherwords I don't plan to leave my current job, but would like to begin building a base that I can gain a little extra income
Click to expand...
I went back and reread your post. I think you are certainly to be commended on your desire to separate the two. I just think it would be very difficult to do.

What if, for instance, someone came into the store that you knew well, would you be able to wait on them as a customer of the store's, or would you be tempted to tell them to call you at home? Or when you see them later, say at the grocery store, would you be tempted to say, "Next time you need framing..." Man, that's a toughie.

Or when you start advertising, and someone comes to your house that didn't realize it was you (from the frame shop) until they got there, would that be an awkward moment?

I really don't want to be too hard on you because it seems that you are trying to keep this ethical. I'm just saying it will be very hard. (Can't serve 2 masters, etc...) In the end, you'll have to decide what is the "right" thing to do.

In my opinion, "basement framing" or even "framing on the side" is not the issue, it's the very thin line of how to handle it.

Betty
 
What’s the big deal when I had the glass supply business a few of my customers had framers who had their own home based business, the guy’s they worked for knew the situation and had no problem with this, in fact they tended to be the better run business, the sad reality is that a framer in most cases cannot make a GOOD living out of framing working for someone else, in the cases I know of the frame shop owners were facing the REAL facts of life and were supporting there employees efforts to make a real living, the sort of living they are unable to offer their employees………….. now there are framers who do the behind the back stuff I have no time for them.
 
I think everything stated is fair, and am not trying to step on my employers toes. I do not use the stores equipment, supplies (I buy a box of glass and foam core and razors, etc. from the store), and would never attempt to do anything on the stores time (or take the customers). I live over an hour away from work so I don't often run in to people that I know, and my employer doesn't feel that my framing is taking business because of the distance involved. (Not to mention this is not something that I am doing every night. I'm lucky if I have a handful of things to do in a month.) When it comes to the advertising part, I would never advertise unless I went full force with my own store and worked solely for myself. I agree with B. Newman stating that seperating the two over time could become difficult... but if I ever opened my own store I think it would be reassuring to know that I have customers to start with and grow with. Maybe? :(
 
So when you open your own storefont will you hire someone who frames on the side?

How do you propose to get your customers to pay the greater expenses associated with maintaining a storefront? So what would your business plan be? Have you thought that far out? Why jeopardize your current position for a few extra dollars? Do you have adequate insurance when a customer falls on your front steps? How far can your basement business grow in this environment? Are your prices that same as your current employers? Have you developed your own business procedures? Have you developed your own pricing?
 
Well, I think curiousity has killed the cat, and I will find a hobby. I guess I never considered all aspects of it. Who knows maybe I'll frame one of the million pictures that I have been planning to frame for myself. Maybe one day I'll open a store.... but I think I'll keep things the way they are for now.
 
AL,
To quote you from a previous thread on another forum, "Just simmer down, now. Just simmer down."
 
Perhaps as you learn and save for the day that you open your own business you could support the hand that is feeding you now and send your employer the business. Boy what a team player he would consider you when you show up with an arm full of projects for his organization to frame for new clients!! Just think how nice it would be if someday one of your employees did that for you. Remember when you join an organization you become part of that team.
 
All the indicators I have are that it cost more to get a customer into a home based business and maintain them there, over a retail location………believe me I have crunched the numbers and have run a businesses in both locations, the rubbish that is spouted about the costs being lower for home based business don’t stack up…….try it sometime I think you will find the numbers won’t work, about the only thing that works out cheaper for a home based business is cost of workshop/shop space………ALL other cost will be considerable more expensive……..why do you think most business (all types of business) are NOT home based….the simple logic would be that if it were cheaper to run a business from your home this would have being the general development of the business structure over the last 200 years i.e. “home based”……..economic history has proven that home base is not cheaper….check your business history.

ArtLady I suggest you do the numbers or better still try running a business in both locations and then reconsider your post.

:rolleyes:
 
Hi Dermot,

I did consider both and decided that a storefront was a better choice for me. However, has our thread starter thought about those concepts? Has she considered working with boss by supporting his business and saving up to do it on her own by bringing him additional business? I guess my point is, why doesn't she consider "BEING" the employee she would like to have in her organization?

Who knows maybe one day he may decided to sell out and she might be the one to take advantage of all those years of building the business. It has been known to happen.
 
Hi ArtLady

I can understand where you are coming from but I cannot buy into the bit about building the owners business with a view that it may be sold to me someday, I fell for that line many years ago and worked my butt off to build a business which I thought I was going to get first refusal on, I did not even get the chance to make a bid the business was sold on to a relation of the owner……OK his right but never again.

I’m not in anyway suggesting that an employee should do any thing dishonest or underhanded, though if an employee has a second part time job/business that just happens to be the same the full time job what is wrong with that, it tends to be the pattern here for part time jobs i.e. my accountant works for a business but also has a number of private clients as has my lawyer, in both cases there employers know of the situation and see no problem, in fact my accountant used to work for one of my suppliers and it was them who put us in touch.

My view is that you pay someone a living wage or at the very least work with them somehow so that can achieve a living wage, I cannot see how a few frames from a hours drive away could seriously affect a frame shop and if it could affect this frame shop I would question the viability of this frame shop, never mind think about taking it over in the future.
 
Hi Dermot,

With all due respect I guess I do not agree with a person working for a business and out of their home. I think it is a conflict of interest. Sooner or later the situation may become testy. If she wants to frame out of her home, then go for it but quit the day job.
 
Originally posted by ArtLady:
Sooner or later the situation may become testy.
Click to expand...
That's my whole point. If she has to drive an hour to work in a frame shop, then chances are there aren't any frame shops near her home. Which means everybody else is probably driving that far to get to a shop too. It's just too delicate a situation.
If she wants to frame out of her home, then go for it but quit the day job.
Click to expand...
Or get a day job in another industry and then frame at night! Basement framing is not the real issue in this case, nor is framing on the side, if it's the side of another type of business.

Things like costs and business attitudes and practices are food (fuel) for another thread.IMHO

Betty
 
Originally posted by Dermot Cox-Kearns:
my accountant works for a business but also has a number of private clients as has my lawyer, in both cases there employers know of the situation and see no problem,
Click to expand...
Dermot, does the accountant work for a company as an accountant, or does he work for an accounting firm that depends on clients for their income? If the framer worked for a production framing company that only did outsourced work and did not depend on individual customers for the income, then I think it would be different. I can't imagine an accounting firm allowing their accountants to have clients on the side. But maybe things are different there.

Betty
 
Framing can be a good job, and it can be a good hobby. But a framer should not be accepting work "on the side" as a framer, whether paid or not.

If your employer knows about this and thinks it is OK, he/she must have his/her head in the sand. It doesn't take much business knowledge to conclude that you are taking potential business away from your employer. Whether on the timeclock or not, and whether in the store or not, soliciting framing business for anyone other than your employer would be unacceptable.

If I learned of any employee doing that, he/she would be subjected to a fair and objective, three-step disciplinary process: Step one would be an absolutely clear warning. Step two, if necessary, would be suspension for a week. Step three, if necessary, would be toward the unemployment office.
 
Thanks Betty.

Also consider if she is framing out of her basement and out of inexperience, economic or another reason does a job less quality than her employer and people know she has this other job it may cast a negative light on her employers quality. People may just say "Gee, she works at XYZ Frame Shop and if she does this kind of work at home then that could be what they do at XYZ Frame Shop." Then she is affecting his reputation.
 
Dtwalls

You're original post was to ask for suggestions on how to run a "Basement frame shop".

You appear to have a very good, helpful and understanding employer who has no objection to you framing on the side.
So why don't you ask him for advice?

Maybe his response would be just like the ones you've received on this forum. (With the exception of Dermot).
 
Betty

No my accountant does not work for an accountancy firm, though he had private clients before he went to work for his present company, they were very glad to get him, accountants are in short supply in Ireland at present, as are most sort of workers/staff, we effectively have full employment in the South of Ireland

George

When you reach full employment in your area like we have in Dublin and the surrounding area you may find that employers will have to modify there approach as to how and who they employ, reality is that employers have to get inventive to find staff in the greater Dublin area, for example to find someone that I can employee at any sort of reasonable rate, that the framing business in my area could afford, I have had to search as far as the Philippines, my up front cost just alone to get this framer into Ireland are going to be about €5,000, and at this she will arrive in January at the earliest (the red tape on this sort of visa in the South is very steep) I have not had one single applicant from Ireland or any EU country for my job vacancy, on average there are 4.000 people per month from non EU countries coming to the South of Ireland just to fill the low skill job requirements we have, I have being very lucky to find someone who wont need much training she is working in the framing business already, it will take very little to get her up to speed for my operation, she is also prepared to stay in Ireland for two years and her visa will be specific to my business, the last EU (no visa requirement) person stayed long enough (one month) to get some training learn a little English and then moved on to a job and a wage that I had no chance of meeting from a framing business, that cost me €1,500 plus wages.
 
Talk to your boss, work out a deal that you get a percentage of the sales you bing in from home. This will put some extra $ in your pocket and extra biz for your boss. Everybody wins and you can have a life.
 
Dermot

I mentioned your name in my reply because your opinion differed from the rest.
With regard to your situation I cannot comment because I know nothing about the employment situation in Dublin and I know nothing about your business or the wages you are offering.
 
(Uh-oh! The Irish are about to go at it. Stand back!!!)

Kidding, just kidding, men! Don't take me seriously!! Don't want to offend anyone else.
 
When we bought the business over 5 years ago, I switched from being a Basement Framer to a Store Front. We kept the current employee at the time that did the finish and fitting work. A customer approached us and said that "they were told that it could be done cheaper if they called me directly". Me meaning the person working for us at the time. When asked about this, the employee got irate and quit, within a week the employee was working out of his house. (For something he/She swore they would never do)

Get the Picture?
 
George

It’s in the newspapers virtually ever day about the employment situation, the local chambers of comers talk about virtually nothing else as do most small and big business people, for example when Gateway Computers abruptly decided to exit the Euro market and make close on 2,000 people redundant (fire them) in Dublin last year, within a week most of the Gateway employees had being offered alternative employment (I quote this case as an example as I have a very good inside line on the computer business in all Ireland).

Believe me George the employment situation has changed so much in the greater Dublin area in the last six/seven years that most employers are still staggering from its effects, there is virtually no small or large business who is not looking for employees and this is despite a slowing of growth here, this situation is spreading right across the country and from what I can gather is starting to impact on the North of Ireland, the number of Northern based business and Government Departments now advertising job vacancies in the Irish Independent and Irish Times would strongly support my analysis, I know of one business in the Dublin area who cannot get staff or enough of them and have outsourced 200+ call centre jobs to a business in the North of Ireland and are now in the process of outsourcing further job’s to Moscow, the latter area of there business they have just given up on any chance of getting the correct type of employees in Ireland, this business employs over 5,000 people in Ireland and have all the resources to source, advertise, train/educate and pay top dollar for jobs if they are not succeeding in filling positions there is very little chance that the smaller business will succeed

I taking the stance I have for the simple reason that for many years I lived in an economy where employees could pick and choose who they wanted to employ, we had 22%+ unemployment at one stage, now it is a very different story, it is only the business who are adapting that are staying in business we are having record cases of small business winding up (closing the door) due to staffing problems, just last night I spoke to two business people one who had 8 very successful flower shops a few years ago he is now down to five and this may go to four in the next few months if he cannot get staff (bear in mind guys that eight flower shops in the Dublin area would have being considered very big) the other guy a furniture manufacture is way behind on contracts again due to staffing problems, aside from factory workers, he has being trying to fill a sales/marketing job for six months without success, in my view the package is very good for this job and it is what his business can afford……it’s just not good enough for the present job climate.

I understand where you guys are coming from, I’m just trying to live with the reality we have in the greater Dublin area (now one of the fastest growing cities in Europe), the employers who have started to bend the old traditional rules towards employees are the ones who are successfully filling those job vacancy’s, and this includes job sharing, my view is that a home based framer who works for another framer is just job sharing, I can see nothing wrong with this, it is a route I would have being more than willing to take if I had the opportunity for my job vacancy.

In past threads it has being suggested very strongly that the framer down the road is not competition, if this argument holds any validity how can anyone seriously consider that a home based business an hours drive from another business could be competition, from the replays this is what I have read, the moral outrage about working for a business and doing some framing at home holds very little creditability in my view, in fact I would go as far as say that it is immoral to take this stance a stance I find very repugnant.

Regarding wages I’m paying considerable above the legally required minimum wage, the job was on offer DOE (depending on experience).

Diver Dave’s suggestion is a very good one, there are a few framers I know who have taken this approach and it is working very well.
 
Dermot

Can we get back to the original post?

This person clearly wants to develop his/her own framing business while working for another framing business.
Are you saying that you would be quite happy to invest your business resources in someone like that?
 
George

If an employee lived an hours drive from me and wanted to develop a business yes I would help them, (I repeat, I cannot see how someone located an hours drive from me could in any remote way harm my business, we are talking about framing after all, this is aside from the legal implications of trying to control an employees outside interests could have for me under EU legislation) I would also at the same time increase my efforts to persuade them that they may be better staying with me, I would consider someone who might like to start their own business very motivated and an excellent prospect to invest my time and efforts in, the responsibility would be on me to make it worth their while to stay with my business, my experience is that the prime reason people move from a employed situation to start their own business or move to a new employer is lack of motivation………..I would still be working for someone else but for the lack of motivation my last job offered, it had all the right perks a very good salary, expenses, bonus, car, etc. etc Ir£50,000+ eight years ago but no motivation.

My new employee to be, is involved in the framing business all be it from abroad and at present intends to return home after two years, there is nothing to stop her from applying for a change of visa status and starting her own business in Ireland (she has the money to do this if she wants to her family are already in the framing business) my responsibility will be to make sure she does not look for change of status and possible get her to extend her stay in Ireland, I consider this a far safer route than investing any more time in trying to get a local employee…….which has just being money down the drain, this view is shared by quite a few business people I know.
 
I am amazed that any employee would use the employer's customer list and frame at home for pay. I am amazed that an employer would allow it.

People come to our store from 2 hours away because of our quality. If an employee's interest is divided by home stuff and employer
stuff it would have to hurt the employer. He/she would feel betrayed if nothing else.

I am an employee. I am highly motivated and would never do anything to deliberately undermine Marie's business. Our group is a team and a tight family. We all work for the good of each other and our customers. How could this be for the greater good. Would not the employees cridibility be in question?
 
George

I have tried the part time/student/anything you just cannot get them or if you do they are gone in no time, there are just too many other opportunities for them around me, for example our baby sitter costs €12 per hour if we can get her, we generally need to book her two to three weeks in advance.

I posted before that a good business model was eluding me, after that I started to ask for advice from some very sound business people I know, they found nothing much wrong with my business model bar my fixation on the mythical (I speak for my location) employee, I had based my growth assumptions on getting the perfect or near perfect employee rather than looking at the current and real suitation around here……..it was like a big light bulb going on for me, I had being trying to buck the reality of the employment situation we have around here, I was trying to do what no other small business has being able to do around here for quite some time and that was to get good local staff.

Now that another light bulb has come on for me and I have dropped my arrogance, asked for some help on the ground and stopped trying to get that theoretical perfect business model, I’m astounded, I have being put in touch with this girl who wants to come to Ireland and work for an Irish framing business (not perfect but much better than the past and I get two years to work on sorting something for the further), I picked up three new accounts and I’m now a much happier and more positive camper, I believe I can finally get this business of mine on target and moving in the direction I would like it to go, there is a long way to go but I truly feel in the last few weeks I have cracked that problem, I knew was there but could not identify.

BTW George it is to you I owe a big thanks, if you had not started posting on the Grumble I think I would have given up on framing, your posting prompted me to dig and examine my situation a little further and bingo I think, hope, believe I have found the problem and the solution, one of the people I asked for advise pointed out to me that “thinking out of the box” means just that, of course this guy (me) had being thinking within the box i.e. the normal or the old way I was trained the way that most of us were trained, I just needed a re think about my thinking and problem solving, it has being slow to get to this point but I’m getting there.

PS
George you may have a better chance with part time or students Belfast city I would expect like Dublin city should have a pool of this sort of employee, I’m located in a rural area that option is not open to me, I did put feelers out, I know one of the lecturers at the Dunlaoghaire art college, there was no interest.
 
Originally posted by Dermot Cox-Kearns:
[QB]...In past threads it has being suggested very strongly that the framer down the road is not competition, if this argument holds any validity how can anyone seriously consider that a home based business an hours drive from another business could be competition, from the replays this is what I have read, the moral outrage about working for a business and doing some framing at home holds very little creditability in my view...

I believe honesty and trust are the issues here. If an employee wants to work for a second employer part time, or wants to begin framing at home, the employer might agree or might not, but he/she deserves to know what's going on. The point is that honesty of intentions allows both parties to make informed decisions. So long as the employee and employer trust in their mutual understanding and agreement, almost ANY relationship is OK.

The problem comes when expectations of trust and honesty are not met. And that goes both ways -- the employer and employee share that responsibility equally.

If there is "moral outrage" here, I think it is not about the employee framing at home -- it's about the absence of trust and honesty in the relationship.
Click to expand...
 
Jim

I understand where you are coming from, it’s just that the post starter Dtwalls employer is knowledgeable of the situation, like all the other posts, I to would have a big problem with an under hand situation…………this whole situation is difficult, I have to use the experiences that I have learned work in my local conditions, in addition there is very strict EU legislation in place which dictates how and when I could have any interest in an employees outside activities, even if I consider these activities have a conflict with my activities………this would not affect George quite as much as me (it’s complex but he comes under different legislation) the court cases have started here for some business where a employee was dismissed for what was perceived to be a conflict of interest with there employee, I posted on this awhile ago i.e. a Director and major share holder of a software business, Irish and US based he was dismissed (he had a software business of his own which was not linked to the original business)he won his case in Ireland and the US, the case is being appealed in the US but will stand in Ireland.

Asides from the above I know of a few cases where a frame shop (2 of them) have employees who also have home business, the shop owners are fully aware of the situation, in fact in one of the situations it is working so well the employee now takes the work to the shop and does it there in the evening, I expect this one will move to the option Diver Dave suggested soon, it is working very well, again I repeat I have NO time for underhand activities.
 
If I may throw in another option? DTWALLS, has your boss concidered expanding his business? Perhaps you could manage a "branch" shop in your town. You keep your current customers, probably gain new customers for your boss, you are closer to home. You could continue out of your basement or find a small store front. Take the orders, cut the mats and do final assembly at your location. Have the frames cut and assembled at your bosses location. I work out of my basement. I order most of my frames from a local frame shop. He has two locations, only about 10 minutes apart. The location I get my frames from does just that. Just takes the orders and does final assembly. Frames are cut at the main location. Just a thought.....
 
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