Backing Filler

Puppyraiser

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Not I. Too cheap, I fear... I know; I know. But then we rarely design with a lot of extra space in the back anyway...
 

Lisa A

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I do if there is a lot of space. I just did one today. I had the decision to make whether to use A/F or regular foam core and decided on A/F. Is this what everyone else uses (if they fill them in)?
 

Val

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Depends on how deep the space is. If it's deeper than one extra layer of foam core, I cut 2" or so strips (I save some A/F scraps for this, if the main backer is A/F) to go around the perimeter, behind the main backer, then float the third, the main being the first) layer on top. Keeps their fingers from poking through the dust cover.
 

Framerguy

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I do pretty much what Val does, perimeter strips when needed and a full sheet to bring the package flush with the back of the frame. It doesn't cost much and makes a better looking package when needed.

Most frames can be fitted without using this method but, if the moulding is a deeper one, it makes sense to fill the void with something better than cardboard! I used coroplast in my shop but foamcore works if you want to spend the extra money for filler.

Framerguy
 

RoboFramer

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Apologies for flippant remark above, I was logged on when Tim was trying to get his name on every forum - the question went straight over my head, thought he was on about mitre filling, or just any old thing to get his name on there.

Anyway - if I'm left with much more than 1/4" I'll pack it - foamcore. If more than one sheet thickness required - offcuts then a final whole sheet. If you seal with gummed tape it can be moulded neatly into a small recess.
 

Ron Eggers

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Coroplast, if you can get your hands on it, is a superior and economical filler.

Most people, given the opportunity, will puncture the dust seal before they get the picture hung if there is more than a bit of space back there.

With metal frames, you need to fill the back or use spring clips. Spring clips create a bunch of new problems discussed at length in previous posts.
 

Paul N

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We usually fill with foam core. But last week we had one really deep canvas sticking out about 2 inches (liner + deep stretcher do wonders sometimes...).

Using 4 layers of 1/2 inch f/c was not an option!
 

Framerguy

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Ya lost me on that one, Paul.
shrug.gif


FGII
 

Baer Charlton

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I thought I would jump in here, but Paul just drove be back to coffee... :D
kaffeetrinker_2.gif


Grumble on.

AF full sheet, ATG strips to perimiter, ATG FC to final thickness.
 

Val

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Paul, I think we're talking about glass/art/backing/dust cover frames, not open-backed canvas framing. And then, when the frame is deeper than the package, not the reverse. Right, Gang?
 

Framerguy

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Whew, thanks, Val.

For a moment I thought I had fallen into some kind of dyslexic optical black hole!!

Paul, you need to give green tea a try. High in antioxiwhatchacallits and it still fulfills the caffeine need only in a subtler way.
thumbsup.gif
:cool:

FGII
 

Bob Carter

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I guess I must be "not getting it" either. Are we discussing if you have for example, a rabbit that is 1" deep, and your glass, mats and backing equal 1/2" leaving the 1/2" not filled?

Is that a problem that requires another couple sheets of foamcore, especially A/F?

I have to say we spend an crazy amount of time (and money) on the back of frames. Can't say that a customer has ever mentioned much about the back.

John Ranes had a great post on HH recently about the "overexuberance" of comservation framing. This might be an extension of that same degree
 

Rebecca

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I may be way off base here, but if you use a sheet of Coroplast as the backboard can't you just use a good strong tape to seal the edges and dispense with the dust cover? Seems a lot easier (and, as Ellen says, cheaper) than trying fill the recess flush to the top of the frame back.

Rebecca
 

Baer Charlton

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Eeeeeuuuwwww! Rebecca, that is a disgusting habit of the cheap framers that give garage framing a good name....

If you dustcover with Tyvek or Cambrick, the customer can't stick their finger through it...

Bob, I don't think 1/2" is what we're talking here, I think it's more like that 2" deep moulding leaving 1-1/2" to fill...
 

John Ranes II CPF GCF

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Originally posted by Bob Carter:
....Is that a problem that requires another couple sheets of foamcore, especially A/F?...
.....John Ranes had a great post on HH recently about the "overexuberance" of comservation framing. This might be an extension of that same degree
Thanks, Bob,

Indeed...this is probably an extension of that same attitude. A paper conservator once made a comment about A/F foam centered board potentially being a redundant product. I tend to agree.

When a filler board is added to framing projects in our shop or "extra filler" for that matter, we default to Coroplast (as Ron suggested)when items are framed to Conservation quality and <u>standard foam centered boards</u> when standard framing is done.

John
 

Bob Carter

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Okay, Baer, I'll bite. You do have a 2" deep rabbit and you will fill that 1 1/2" with product (and time and effort)?

Hey, don't let me talk you out of doing it.

But, what do you think it costs you to do that in (a)material and then (b)labor?

And, then (c) do you really think the average consumer cares a whit about that feature?

We keep making these judgements based on th efact that we keep thinking that we are framing for each other when, in fact, we are really framing for consumers

My only concern is that a new, impressionable framer reads this and thinks that this filling requirement is standard and inserts a half dozen sheets of foamcore (a/f, to boot)because they read it on the G

And, then, wonders why they can't make any money or worse, they are priced out of the marketplace
 

Jim Miller

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We always fill to within 1/8" of the frame's back, and we usually join the final filler to the frame back with 2" clear polyester packing tape, which smooths the transition, integrates frame & filler for better structural strength, and covers the fitting points.

IMHO, any amount of air under the dustcover invites finger-poke-through, which is unnecessary and unacceptable.

If more than one or two layers of board are needed, we will use scraps under the final filler. We use material that is suitable for the job. That is, alphacellulose and/or fluted polypropylene for best preservation; ArtCare foam center boards for moderate preservation, and standard foam center board for the rest.
 

Rebecca

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Just Devil's advocate here, but I don't think Coroplast with Good tape at edges looks cheap. And why have a dust cover if you don't need one?

OMG, I agree with Bob!


Rebecca
 

Bob Carter

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Yeah, Rebecca, it makes want to rethink my position.

I'm calling for an appointment tomorrow with my Doctor. I'm certainly cannot be in full control of my faculties when Rebecca agrees.LOL

But, back to planet earth:

Do you charge extra money for this extra service? and does your consumer feel it worth that extra money you charge? Or do you just absorb these extra steps?

What's the cost of a sheet of 32x40 A/F foamcore

Look, I understand Jim's position of wanting to provide the most professional product available and I am not advocating providing a lesser product.

But, if it is a benefit, it needs to have a perceived value. And, that perceived value has a worth-one that a consumer would be willing to pay.

Leaving that "several" unpaid for sheets of a/f foamcore out of the package, IMHO, won't affect anything in terms of longetvity, appearance or aesthetics.

However, I am certain that it will affect your costs and uncompensated margin reductions don't make much sense

I do apologize for viewing this from a Business Decision Point of View
 

Ron Eggers

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I guess it IS sort of a conservation issue. A punctured or torn dust cover is non-functional.

But it's also not attractive. Customers DO notice the backs. They like the blue paper, the pretty sticker, the little bumpers (unless the melt on their walls) and the neatly wrapped wire. At least they TELL me they do.

I guess if you're using Tyvek, the puncture issue is less relevant. I'll bet at least 1% use Tyvek.
 

Bob Carter

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I need to refine my Marketing.

I just never seem able to attract these oh-so-discriminating clientele that never, ever question prices, that always ask for Museum Glass, and that comment on the back of the frame

Starting tomorrow, let's all do a little Market Research.

Get a legal pad

List from 1-100

Everytime a client picks up a project, write down what each of these clients tells you about the BACK OF THE FRAME.

I'll buy a Ruth's Chris Gift Card for $100 for the framer that sends me that list with the most comments from these customers

I really think if you feel these steps necessary, please continue to do so.

But, we are getting some doozies of rationalizations.
 

Ron Eggers

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Do you fill all your frames with filler so that it is flush at the back?
Good God, Bob. It was a simple question.

Apparently some do and some don't. Hopefully, we've all made up our own minds about what works for us and our customers.

I've explained why I do, you've explained why you don't and maybe we've all learned something. Maybe not. Either way, I don't see this as the greatest issue of the decade.
 

Baer Charlton

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Bob, If when I design, I know that the deep frame [which CAN be a design feature] will require some "stuffing"... I do include that in the fitting charge.

Do I get anal about filling, NO. And do people make comments about the back.... I can't name names, but I know that when there finger goes through the paper... some comments have been made.

Could I fill up your 100 comments.. heavens to betsy, no. Is your offer of taking me dinner at Ruth Chris accepted? Well, gee, you don't have to, but if you think you must, ok. [Capt English, please don't read that last set of commas puntuated with a couple of words.]

But it is one of the reasons we stock 50yds of both Tyvek(36"wide) and Cambrick(54"wide and Black). At $2/yd... I don't put it on everything, but I also don't hesitate to slap either on the back of a nice job either.
 

Bob Carter

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Good God, Ron, settle down. Your BP must be going crazy.

Someone must have taken the last Krispy Kreme when you weren't looking?

Look, it isn't the most compelling issue of the decade.

So, how come you are getting so upset?
 

Framar

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Comment most frequently heard from customers when they bother to look at the back of the frame, "Oh - you DID put hangers on it! Great!"
 

RoboFramer

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Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
but I know that when there finger goes through the paper... some comments have been made.

Am I missing something here - something you do in the States that we don't do here?

Do you, after backing and sealing the frame, put a piece of thin paper over the whole thing as a dust cover for something that is already sealed?

Maybe this is cosmetic?

Or are you referring to the gummed paper tape used to seal the backing board in - but seeing as this is moulded into the rebate, I can't see how.
:confused:
 

Framerguy

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I'm beginning to understand the meaning of some of the rather strange "welcome back" emails I received in the past week.

Hey guys, this shouldn't in the least bit be taken on a personal level! It was just a simple question asked by somebody who may have had a boring evening and threw up a handful of posts to see what floated and what didn't.

Man, in the end, who really gives a rat's patooty how I finish off the backs of my frame packages besides ME?? I do it because I have been accused of being too particular and probably I am about how the back of a frame looks once it's up on the wall. I simply like to have a nice neat finish to my frame package and that means using filler when needed to bring the contents up to level. I used coroplast because I could get it at a steal of a price. (My supplier had a virtual mountain of 48"x44" cutoffs from a major job she did and I bought them 50 at a time for less than a buck a sheet.) I use Lineco blue paper because I like the look of it and I have built the added cost over 40# or 50# kraft into my fitting charge. I twist my SuperSoftstrand wire evenly and the same # of wraps and I trim the tails off evenly, always. I use clear bumpons and I use labels because I can ......... and it gives the package a more finished neat look.

Now I have been framing enough years to be able to guesstimate if I need .50&#162 worth of coroplast as filler and I add it when I sense that it is needed. Otherwise, I guess I am doing myself a terrible disservice as a businessman by not adding these extra costs onto the finished work order and that may be the real reason I had to close last year. Maybe I was using Ivan as a crutch so I wouldn't have to face the irony of my business decisions, I can't really say for sure.

I have come back to find that a good friend of mine is no longer on this forum. I don't know the specifics of his removal nor do I care. I have seen other good friends of mine make posts that I don't understand. They seem out of sorts with what I remember their attitudes to be.

I also see alot of new faces here on the Grumble who don't know me from Adam nor do I know them but I have to say that some of them are asking good questions, maybe repetitive to those of us who have seen them many times over the years but nonetheless good questions. I hope that we can focus on answering these questions and lending our experiences and knowledge to these new people without dragging our personal attitudes and prejudices into the conversation.

I have learned quite alot about some of the aspects of retail framing in the last 9 months that I never realized before I worked at a Big Box. I would like to share some of this information with the Grumble family but I have to say that I am a bit gunshy about starting some kind of personal feud by mentioning something innocent and having it blown all out of proportion. I am not reacting to this one thread and those who responded here need not feel they are the focus of finger pointing by me. Rather, I have noticed that the Grumble has changed. I notice it because I have been completely away from it for almost a year. I remember how it was before. It is different now and I can't place my finger on exactly how it has changed or for what reason but I don't feel the comfort or the "at home feeling" that I enjoyed before I left.

I hope that in a few months we can look back and blame it on the weather or moon phases or global warming and things will have settled back down and the Grumble will feel like "home" again.

Framerguy
 

FramerDave

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Ya know, I love this industry and framing to death, by my God framers get their knickers in a twist over the silliest things. Wire angles, dust covers, backing...

But if someone talks business, all h377 breaks loose if somone suggests that we sell polystyrene moulding to capture more of the marketplace. Or it just falls on deaf ears.

Roboframer, here in the States we generally finish off the back of the frames with Kraft paper or in some exceptional cases Tyvek. It finishes off the back nicely, so it's partly cosmetic but it also seals out dust and buggies.

You might argue that your gummed tape is faster, cheaper, does a better job, etc. And that's fine. And some of us might argue that our way looks better and is just as fast and inexpensive. That's fine too. Just answering a question, not trying to induce a flamewar over something so trivial.
 

Elaine

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Framerdave,

sometimes people get their knickers in a twist when they least understand something - like business!

Just my observation, but then again I'm still learning the framing biz - learning alot, but sitll learning.

my 2 cents
 

RoboFramer

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FramerDave,

To all you said - absolutely.

Whole load of fuss about nothing.

All I'd say now - and going back to the original question asked, is that I would never cover the back of the frame with something a customer could (and would) poke their finger through.

If I did then I would have to make it flush so that they could not, it would come back otherwise.
 

DTWDSM

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Originally posted by Tim Hayes:
Do you fill all your frames with filler so that it is flush at the back?
No.

Now wasn't that simple and non offensive?
 

Jerry Ervin

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I am in total agreement with Bob here. I have never filled the void in the back, and probably never will. I can't afford to give that much product away.

However, I do use a heavier weight paper than most framers and it is much harder to stick your finger through. I always paper the back. Even on canvases because it just looks better and the cost of paper is minimal. The cost of ArtCare Foamboard however is not minimal.
 

Jim Miller

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Rebecca, I agree that Coroplast and sturdy taping is an adequate finish, but it just isn't pretty enough to suit me.

Bob, filling the frame has two real benefits: (1) insulation, and (2) it keeps the dustcover from getting punctured by careless fingers, which reverses its purpose and makes it a dust collector.

Perceived value is where we find it. If a customer is unaware of the insulating value, structural integrity, and longevity benefits of a filled frame and durable back covering, then it has no value. But that would be our mistake.

We point out the value so that customers understand it. And if they want to know how much more it costs, we will tell them. And if they choose not to buy it, then we will leave the frame open for a lower price. Either way, the customers make informed decisions, and they usually buy the better backing by choice, just as they buy Museum Glass -- although that happens less often.

Have you ever noticed that when a customer picks up their framing, they often turn the frame over and look at the back? I used to think they just wanted to make sure we put the wire on right-side-up. But when conversation follows as a reminder about the WallBuddies instructions, it is clear that they perceive the back to be an indication of quality. That's as close as they can get to looking inside the frame.
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Jerry Ervin:
...I have never filled the void in the back, and probably never will. I can't afford to give that much product away...
Exactly what is the cost you seek to avoid by leaving the frame poorly insulated in back and vulnerable to finger-poke-through?

When I decided to recommend the better backing and charge customers for it based on frame size, I determined that filling the frame; using Lineco blue, lignin-free dustcover paper; clear vinyl Bump-Ons; and WallBuddies added about $1.00 to the cost of a typical 16x20 frame. For that, I charge about $4.00. Customers like it and buy it.

Where am I going wrong here?
 

stud d

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All I got to say is that Tim can sure start some stuff!!!

It is a harmless kwestion, both sides are valid-Jim, and Bob. I think if the frame was a bit on the higher side (say $25.00 a ft) and I used brown or black craft paper I would fill the back. If it was $5.00 a ft, and the customer was tight...then I hesitate. I want to make the sale and want them to be happy, but to keep adding charges on?

I think with things like this it might be better to put it in your pricing structure. It maybe be cheaper to use Tyvek or Lineco on all of your framing instead of guessing the filling costs? This would break the costs down over many frames instead of using a sheet or more on each frame to fill the back.

Patrick Leeland
 

Val

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One of my competitors didn't fill the backs of several that they did for one customer. They were for an important show that was held at an up-scale hotel. The people helping haul the pieces put their fingers through nearly every one. Heavy-duty paper was used, and "only" 1/2" space under the paper, no filler. The artist was embarrassed at having to sell them with holes in the back, in fact, didn't even put a some of them out. May have resulted in lost sales for the artist. The ones he did sell he brought back to me to re-do before he would deliver them to the customer, at his cost (minimal, but inconvenient and uneccessary). I rest my case.
I believe that what the back looks like is very important, down to marks on the paper, ratty paper trim, etc. Pyschological? Yes, but isn't that what a good deal of framing is about?
As has been said, determine filling at the time of the order and add it to the fitting charge, as Jim just mentioned.
If the outside looks professional, front and back, the inside (what they can't see) must as well. If you wouldn't sign your name on the back, as well as be proud of the front, do it over. (Right,Bob S?) I'm adamant about this, and I will continue to be.
 

Greg Fremstad

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For the 1-1/2 inch gap, try cutting a Corplast sheet about 3 inches larger, notch the four corners out and bend the sides ( down if you're looking at the back of the frame) at about 1-1/2 inches and insert this "box" into the back of the frame. Fit and paper as usual.

IMHO there art no pressure sensitive tapes that:
1. Will stick to unfinished wood for a long time as the resins in the wood will degrade the adhesive.
2. Last as long as white glue.

When you say "Good tape" - how do you know it's good? What substrates was the adhesive designed to bond to. How did you test the tape? Under what temperature and humidity?
How may years have you used this tape and have you ever seen a frame job come back to you say 10 years down the road with the tape you're using still doing the job you asked it to do?
 

Jim Miller

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Thanks for that reminder about pressure sensitive tapes, Greg.

The best way I've found is to use ATG toward the inside of the frame's back, and a thin line of PVA or polyaliphatic resin (frame glue) all around the perimeter, just outside the ATG lines.

ATG holds at least until the glue dries. Then when the ATG lets go later, the glue holds long term.
 

JPete

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"How may years have you used this tape and have you ever seen a frame job come back to you say 10 years down the road with the tape you're using still doing the job you asked it to do?"

More than 10 and yes.
 

Baer Charlton

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I going to have to vote with JPete....

We have gotten things back that we fit 20+ years ago, and that ATG is a ***** to get off as well as the kraft paper that sticks to it.

But of course, "Things" were made better back in the Olden Daze. :D

Jim, If you spread the PVA along the back edge of the frame, apply the paper then snuggly then screed it with the back of a #12 razor, you will find that it may be damp, but it isn't going anywhere. Then you can spritz down the paper with glass cleaner a bit, and when it drys, it will be drum tight.

It's the new "Retro" way of framing.
 

Framing Goddess

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Finger holes poked through dust covers are merely a cosmetic problem if the art has been 'dust-sealed.'

It is rare, in my shop anyway, that a frame ends up that much deeper than its stuffin'. I usually have a reason for a deeper frame, like I am going to float the mat up a bit or use a fillet on the mat. And when I do use a deeper frame on a 'flat' piece, it's usually a skinnymini on a big piece that needs a strainer and there isn't even room for dust.

Maybe once or twice in twenty five years have I ever found a reason to need to fill up the back of the frame.

edie the feelslikemonday goddess
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Greg Fremstad:
IMHO there art no pressure sensitive tapes that:
1. Will stick to unfinished wood for a long time as the resins in the wood will degrade the adhesive.
2. Last as long as white glue.
ATG was not originally designed to stick to wood. Sometimes it sticks quite well, but sometimes it does not. I guess Greg's point is that ATG is not the most dependable dustcover adhesive. And then there's the messy residue Baer mentioned.

Here's another alternative, a sort of hybrid method: Use 2" clear polyester packing tape to cover fitting points; run its edge clear out to the perimeter of the frame back. So, the ATG would be applied to the clear polyester tape, not the raw wood.

This serves two purposes: (1) ATG sticks more dependably to the clear polyester than to raw wood, and (2) when the inevitable happens, the ATG residue peels off with the polyester tape.
 

Rebecca

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Beva sticks to wood very well, so that's one possibility, though this would require a self made tape. Also, doesn't Lineco frame sealing tape stick to wood well and long? http://www.lineco.com/item.cfm?itemnum=L387-0152

Well, neither dust cover papers nor tapes will last forever.

Isn't it fun how many solutions to a seemingly simple problem you all can come up with?

Rebecca
 

Framerguy

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Quote from Jim Miller:

Here's another alternative, a sort of hybrid method: Use 2" clear polyester packing tape to cover fitting points; run its edge clear out to the perimeter of the frame back. So, the ATG would be applied to the clear polyester tape, not the raw wood.

This serves two purposes: (1) ATG sticks more dependably to the clear polyester than to raw wood, and (2) when the inevitable happens, the ATG residue peels off with the polyester tape.


And you provide a complete positive closure on the back of the frame package, great idea, Jim.

What about the longevity of the adhesive on the packing tape?? Any problems that you are aware of??

Framerguy
 
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