Question Attack of the Killer Tomatoes FRAME

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Framar

Framar

WOW Framer
Joined
Jul 24, 2001
Posts
26,420
Loc
Buffalo, New York, USA/Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada
OK - so I just got my June DECOR today and was totally flummoxed by the article on Pricing Complex Projects.

16 year old client?

$1,696 for the job?????

Since no sizes or details on materials (like how could a "deep contemporary black frame" which looks to have been rattle- canned - cost the shop $285????) - the thing looks to be no bigger than 20x30 -

$140 for encapsulation???????

$175 for fitting??????

Wha??????

Am I still living in the sixties???

I guess having my shop in economically depressed Buffalo is obviously influencing my reaction to this article. But I did show this to a well-heeled customer (she and her hubby are both professionals with jobs) and (she had been complaining about her $200 job as being expensive) and she declared that to spend $1700 on a frame was "Obscene."

I guess I just don't get it.

What do all y'all think about this killer project?

What would you charge?

(I would have bought a raw wood frame, rattle-canned it, used white LED lights, Xeroxed the dang program, used CC glass, and probably brought it home for $300-400.)

Oh, *sigh* :icon45:
 
Mar,

I read it this morning while I was eating my cereal -- I almost choked. That price was outrageous....and I'm sure a 16 y.o. just handed over Daddy's credit card. In my opinion, it wasn't even that spectacular of a design. I read the cover of the mag and thought --- "Oh! What a great article." I turned right to it. It wasn't that impressive.

If he had broken down how he got to $140 for encapsulation----um does it really take 2 hours and $20 in materials? Prolly not.

It seemed arbitrary and contrived, and didn't really benefit me much at all, if any. The bathroom at work was low on toilet paper, so maybe it helped a little bit. :D

I think the writer of the article (God I hope he isn't a grumbler) :faintthud: on this article.

Try a little harder next time.

dave.
 
Here people gulp at $350 for a shadowbox - suggest $400 and they are on the floor needing smelling salts - maybe it is the market - what about it grumblers in CA or NYC, Chicago?
 
16 year old customer? Did the shop get the payment in full up front?! Wait until Mom or Dad get the CC bill! Either the shop owner is going to hear it or the kid will be working forever to pay that one off!

I just gave someone a quote for a 32 by 50 shadowbox, with a honker Roma frame, that totalled 2300. But its Roma! And I haven't heard back yet, but not giving up as the first quote on a previous job took two weeks for them to decide, this one'll take 3 weeks. And hopefully they'll upgrade to Museum, or Optium plexi!
 
I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that Attack of the Killer Tomataoes regularly makes the lists of worst films ever made.
(Although judging by the NY Times review Yesterday, Mike Meyers' new Love Guru may knock it off its pedestal.)
:icon11: Rick

P.S. This may be the first issue of Decor I've ever thrown out the same day I received it. I was looking forward to that complex pricing article and was very disappointed by it. Plus, most of what passed for editorial content this month was thinly disguised "infomercials".
 
We are certainly not the cheapest guys in town but that's crazy! I don't feel so bad about some of our pricing now though.
 
When I was 16 I worked as many hours as my 2 bosses would give me and made about $200 a week. I also had screwed up priorites, and would've spent a grand on magic beans if the opportunity had presented itself. THe "kid" could make a thousand a week as a web designer, who knows.

I haven't seen the article so I can't say what I'd charge but I do know that my prices here in Baltimore are much different from when I worked a block off of Park Avenue in Manhattan...and so's the rent.
 
:faintthud:
I showed that article to my husband as soon as I read it. And I read it quite a few times. It never stated the finished size of the piece, but doesn't look like it could be over 20 x 24. That's 44 united inches for a piece that looks to be about two inches wide. My chart says that uses 9 feet of moulding. Even at $15 a foot my cost (and I can't paying someone more than that to create it), my cost on it would be around $135. Markup, even at 3x would only be $405. And given while this is a most attractive frame, its still just a graduated airbrushed pattern over a very basic profile thats been highly lacquered. It's not that complex. In fact, you can still see over spray on the back of it. To me, $405 is still really high for this frame...but...giving them what they want and continuing...

For three mats...I have $60.27

Encapsulation is outrageous. There's no real labor with it. I'd mark materials up x 3 and even with that, I'd be looking at $60.

My museum glass for a 20 x 24 would cost around $72.11. Acrylic, around $60.00 (its harder to get here).

Fitting. I have no idea how it would take any longer than an hour to fit these. I'd charge my standard fitting charge plus a 1/2 hour labor. $41.70.

Lighting. This, I think...is reasonable enough. I don't think I would charge for time to 'find' an item for a customer though--no more than I would charge for my time matching a moulding I don't have in stock.

Second cover--this is a reasonable printing charge. I'd be more worried about copyright infringement, myself. Although I do like the idea of having two covers, creating one to me seems to take away from the originality of the piece somewhat. I would've opened the program to show the front and the back and showed a thin strip of matting between the two covers and perhaps placed the film on the right. But that's me.

My total for this would be around $860.00. And that's using a ridiculously-for-the-money price frame and agreeing with the lighting charges.

I believe completely that every frame job should be profitable. However, I think not balancing profitability and common sense is important...even if we have to be the one to inject it into the customer. And I have to say that if my 16 year old spent this on this job I would feel like someone was taking them for granted. Grown ups, its up to them.

No doubt, like most other framers I will let my customers spend whatever they want to spend on framing. But the only thing that following this pricing structure for framing jobs would do for me is kill customers....

I do feel bad for being so negative on this one, but to me this job is just plainly way overpriced. It was done correctly, however, and they gave the customer what they wanted. Maybe, in the end, that's worth more than just money.
 
Okay - the article's online and I've seen it now...

It's a custom hand finished frame with a light in it... I haven't gone line by line, but over a thousand for that doesn't seem out of line to me.

Sure, there isn't a huge amount of time in encapsulating now that you know how to do it, but don't you deserve to be compensated for the time and money you spent learning?

My charge for 20" x 24" Museum is higher than yours, and a little over twice what I'd charge for UV Acrylic the same size. I'd be interested in learning how you (janetj1968) are able to source it so the prices are so close.
 
Meghan MacMillan said:
My charge for 20" x 24" Museum is higher than yours, and a little over twice what I'd charge for UV Acrylic the same size. I'd be interested in learning how you (janetj1968) are able to source it so the prices are so close.
Click to expand...

Superior Acrylic in Riverside, CA has excellent pricing. Check them out!
 
Rick Granick said:
P.S. This may be the first issue of Decor I've ever thrown out the same day I received it. I was looking forward to that complex pricing article and was very disappointed by it. Plus, most of what passed for editorial content this month was thinly disguised "infomercials".
Click to expand...


I agree, this issue left a lot to be desired.

16yr old sepnding that much on framing...sorry I have a hard time believing it.

And I don't know if the artwork would be considered public domain but I sure the h3ll would not copy it, charge for it, and then tell everyone that I did it in a national magazine. Just asking for some lawyer to contact you.


We all love to hear about the extreme framing projects but if you are doing an article about pricing wouldn't you rather read about more realistic framing jobs that all framers can relate to when it comes to the prices of framing?

Come on Decor, if framers could relate to an article like that we wouldn't be closing up shops left and right would we??????
 
Not out here, no way we can charge like that. I can't even sell a freaking mirror for half that amount. And there's just no way I could charge a customer for time spent surfing the internet. And charging for the mounting board? Are you kidding?
 
Aside from the price issue, I didn't find the design inspiring at all. Regardless if it was a handfinished frame or not, it looked like what it was, spray finished. It looked flat and boring to me. Maybe in person it looked better. Sorry to say that to the designer but that was how it impressed me.

Just to make the point though. The cover was not copied, they found another one on-line and purchased it, and so used a second original copy.
 
Well, The article doesn't say anything about a 16 year old so that's off the boat. What it does point out are all the custom factors. The hand finish to museum glass. Pricing seems close to what we would charge. Aside from an unsightly finished project it appears fairly priced.
My 2 cents.
 
j Paul said:
The cover was not copied, they found another one on-line and purchased it, and so used a second original copy.
Click to expand...

Page 52 says "Surprisingly, finding the cover was quick and inexpensive online". It never says they purchased another copy. It says on page 54 "Why not aquire another copy of the image and show the front and back of the cover". A copy of the image is not an another original. When it shows the detail it says "Second Killer Tomatoes Cover", online, less than 10 minutes.

Now, do you think they purchased rights to that image online in ten minutes? Do you think they got that for $35, including printing and shipping? I think that $35 was for ten whole minutes of surfing, myself.

DTWDSM said:
And I don't know if the artwork would be considered public domain but I sure the h3ll would not copy it, charge for it, and then tell everyone that I did it in a national magazine. Just asking for some lawyer to contact you.
Click to expand...

I think that about sums it up.
 
janetj1968 said:
Page 52 says "Surprisingly, finding the cover was quick and inexpensive online". It never says they purchased another copy. It says on page 54 "Why not acquire another copy of the image and show the front and back of the cover". A copy of the image is not an another original. When it shows the detail it says "Second Killer Tomatoes Cover", online, less than 10 minutes.

Now, do you think they purchased rights to that image online in ten minutes? Do you think they got that for $35, including printing and shipping? I think that $35 was for ten whole minutes of surfing, myself.



I think that about sums it up.
Click to expand...


Well maybe I am wrong Janet, but I don't think so.
  • They already had the front and back cover, if they wanted to make a copy all they had to do was scan and print.
  • I read into the statement that they obtained another copy to be another original, but a copy as in copy of a magazine.
  • Don't know how rare it is, but if not so rare, $35. online including s&h wouldn't be unusual for a magazine of some interest.
  • But again I could be wrong, however if I were them and I scanned and copied it, thus violating copyright laws, I wouldn't have published that fact in a magazine. But then again, I could be wrong.
 
j Paul said:
But then again, I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

I could be just as easily...that's just how I read it. Maybe they didn't have a scanner and just a printer? I don't know.

It could've been written a little more clearly. I hope you're right.
 
At the end of the article there's a box where they ask 'How much would you charge for this piece?', and say to visit their website. I thought maybe there was more info on the website - like maybe some dimensions!!! But, no.

When a customer calls and asks what it would cost for a frame and doesn't tell you a size, you can give them a break figuring they don't know anything about framing. You would think a trade magazine would know that you need to know a size to figure up a price.
 
To me, these types of jobs are not what i make huge profits from. They are fun and challenging and let me show-off my chops, but the Bread-and-Butter-Frame-Mat-and-Glass orders are where the $$$ is!

I just re-read the article. The first time I looked through Decor I scanned and skipped most of it, as I thought the design was "pedestrian."

If this job had come across my design counter? I might have rejected it. I don't "do" lighted frames. Most customers won't pay for the extra effort that I'd have to go through to figure out the engineering.

Maybe this 16 year old is Donald Trump's kid! Or Jack Osbourne!

$285 per foot is a bit much, though. You can get real gold leaf for much less than that!

Wendy
The NEW Art Corner
231 Washington Street
Salem, MA 01970
978-745-9524
artcornersalem@verizon.net
www.theartcorner.blogspot.com
 
Well, I imagine if all the features in Decor and PFM were the "bread and butter" jobs, we'd stop reading.... We can dream, can't we?:)))

Sounds like most of you just want more specific info on this job to make it more clear. Perhaps a call to the editors of Decor is in order. I'm sure they'd follow up.

FYI, I know the framers of this project and they are fair and reasonable,
top-notch framers. The author of the article, Stuart Altschuler, is a pretty well known instructor in the industry.

That said, more information could make this a valuable conversation.
 
wendy lang said:
Maybe this 16 year old is Donald Trump's kid! Or Jack Osbourne!

$285 per foot is a bit much, though. You can get real gold leaf for much less than that!
http://www.theartcorner.blogspot.com
Click to expand...

Wendy, I'm not picking on you, I'm just picking one you because you brought up two things that I find important in this discussion.

First, the frame wasn't "$285 per foot", that was the wholesale cost of the completed frame to the framer. The framer then marked up the frame three times to arrive at the $855. If you look close at the frame (on my monitor) it looks like a oil gilded frame that was airbrushed after the gilding. You can stomp on me, but in my book I would charge $110/ft for something that simple.. so for the 18x24 it appears to be.... my wholesale would be about $940. And if they marked that up three times......

Most of what I'm hearing people say here is that they have a problem with a 16 year old girl spending that king of money. I can't pass judgment, but being related to The Donald, or Paris' best party friend, or Whacko Jacko in drag... you might want to to a personal envy check at the door.
As for the snide comments about the design.... yeah, it's simple... but may I invite you to slap one of your fine designs up on the Frame Design forum and let us take a few whacks at your taste buds.

But lets cut to the bottom line chase here. This article was:

  1. Not an exercise in marketing to Gen Z and their amazing depth of pocket book.
  2. Not about coming up with a "kick a$$", award winning, universally appealing design
  3. Not about getting paid for surfing the net and checking out NSFW videos on Noob.us.
  4. Not about "Our shop rates are higher than yours, and we mark up closed corners more than you do.... so . . neener neener nEEner".
  5. But the article WAS about the steps to take (and not to forget to charge for) on pricing out unusual framing jobs for your shop.
If you never do the unusual or out of the box frame jobs; then you can just skip over this article written by a very respected person in this industry. You won't need this information, you will never use this information so please.. don't read it.

Also, if you are having a hard time getting your head around the price tag on this job..... just keep your head down and stick to those frame, double mat, mount and glass jobs you have been doing all along. You'll do just fine.... seriously. As Wendy said, bread and butter is what puts the bacon on her table (gawd I hope she isn't veeegun.. :D don't shoot me Edie, it's just a figure of speech). And bread and butter jobs are what pay 90% of every framers rent..... but occasionally....and when it does come through your door, having this knowledge is sometimes a lot easier than calling my cell phone when I'm in the Virgin Islands.

But if you are like more than a few of my framer accounts that have called me, to help them walk through pricing and or doing a tough unusual job.... this is good stuff.

Stuart, I'm glad you took my advice and left the third fillet of teeth, and the green stem on the top, off. :D
 
An oil gilded frame that was airbrushed after gilding??????????

Talk about gilding the lily! (backwards analogy!)

And, BTW, in my tiny mind the 16 year old customer is a boy, not a girl.

;)
 
I didn't check the jeans..... :D

and anyway for a while "in my mind" Mar, Terry Scidmore, and Emibubba where guys too. :D Glad they aren't.

Yeah, would that be "Lilying the Gild"?
 
So why on earth would anyone spray paint a gilded finish? Unless it is a Maltese Falcon scenario.....?

And I really would like an explanation of how encapsulation for items that size could run to $140. How big are those programs anyhow???

What really annoys me about this DECOR article is that I cannot seem to get the themesong out of my mind. "The attack - of the killer to-may-toes....."
 
Geesh Baer, if this is a special project that they're showcasing in the magazine, then I would say 90% of my framing is that special stuff, and 10% is the ho hum double mat, boring stuff. I need to raise my prices!

Honestly though, outside the light in the frame, there wasn't much spectacular about it. Even the frame....I don't care if it was wrapped in dinosaur hide, shellacked with the sweat from Jessica Alba's cleavage, and airbrushed in those colors, it's not worth it. The same thing could be accomplished with a little airbrushing, on a less expensive material underneath.

And just for the record, it wasn't until 2 months ago....(I joined September 2006) that I realized Framar was a girl/lady/woman/female! Mar, wasn't the only one I've done that too either. Neven I thought was a guy too. We should have a way to differentiate males and females on this forum.

dave.
 
DLB said:
And just for the record, it wasn't until 2 months ago....(I joined September 2006) that I realized Framar was a girl/lady/woman/female! Mar, wasn't the only one I've done that too either. Neven I thought was a guy too. We should have a way to differentiate males and females on this forum.

dave.
Click to expand...
.What about a nice PINK text? L.
 
My beef isn't really with Stuart, I too know him and he is a very good framer and a great instructor. My beef is with Decor and using this as an example of pricing.

How many here do a framing project that retails over $1600 on a regular basis? How many here actually airbrush frames? It's not that nobody does it but I would guess that very few do.

If Decor wants to do an article about pricing and things that people forget or do not charge for, why not do something like some sort of golf collage with a scorecard, golfball, photos ect. We have all done them and probably did not charge enough since the photo was photo cornered, the scorecard was drymounted and the ball was mounted using tulle, oh yeah there were a few tees and a ball marker that were mounted on the top mat. You retailed it for 500, could have got 575 if you figured it correctly and the customer had a 15% off coupon. How much profit did you make/loose on that project?

I think that more could relate to something like this rather than some spoiled kid spending $1600 on a movie poster with an airbrushed frame.

I could be wrong here but I would guess that with all of the high end framers here you will all prove me wrong.
 
Decor is a hilarious farce of a magazine, IMO. The last issue we got has kept my wife and I in stitches for a whole month. Being kids from Gen X ourselves, we have repeatedly pulled quotes and suggestions from the articles on marketing to our generation from that issue during our marketing discussions for a bit of comic relief.

"UR going to <3 R framez, d00d!"

lmao.

Baby-boomers crack me up.
 
Well this is probably now the most opened issue of Decor in a long time. Maybe thats what they wanted something to get us talking about them. I don't get the pricing, but I also don't feel enough info was given. If the framer can get that for a job then more power too them. So nothing against the framer.

I'm not sure I understand Decor's reasoning for printing an article like this, especially considering the current economic climate. (Which is not IMO a permanent condition). I do agree with what Tim said about Decor...they could have made a better choice to get our opinions on.

I can get a decent amount for a frame job in my area, but I wouldn't say I am high end just because I sell Roma, for example. BIgger concerns should be with the every day "real" concerns and not specialty jobs such as this. This job would have made a better how-to article than a 'how much can we stick this customer for' article.

Decor seems to still function only because of their advertisers...but they have been, for a long time a "Where's the Beef" industry publication. I'll stick with PFM tyvm.
 
DTWDSM said:
My beef isn't really with Stuart, I too know him and he is a very good framer and a great instructor. My beef is with Decor and using this as an example of pricing.

How many here do a framing project that retails over $1600 on a regular basis? How many here actually airbrush frames? It's not that nobody does it but I would guess that very few do.

If Decor wants to do an article about pricing and things that people forget or do not charge for, why not do something like some sort of golf collage with a scorecard, golfball, photos ect. We have all done them and probably did not charge enough since the photo was photo cornered, the scorecard was drymounted and the ball was mounted using tulle, oh yeah there were a few tees and a ball marker that were mounted on the top mat. You retailed it for 500, could have got 575 if you figured it correctly and the customer had a 15% off coupon. How much profit did you make/loose on that project?

I think that more could relate to something like this rather than some spoiled kid spending $1600 on a movie poster with an airbrushed frame.

I could be wrong here but I would guess that with all of the high end framers here you will all prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

How many over $1,600? More than you think. But that is the problem, and why the article... many think not to charge for the "on-line" time, same as many think that if they do the work after hours or on Sunday... it's FREE labor.

If you think there should be an article about pricing corner mount, dry mount, and tulle in a shadow box.... write it yourself and submit it.... or just read a few of Jim Miller's articles.

Erik, I'm glad us old farts amuse you so much. In a few short years this mud ball will be all yours. I love the fact that you txt mssg yr scorn.... who do you think invented that phone, and computer you're using? And framing? Did you figure it out all by yourself?
 
Sometimes all that "extra effort" (airbrushing frames; online research; etc.) is relegated to "customer service" WITHOUT the extra charge! It is like gold in the bank! It is that Extra Mile that makes customers sit up and take notice of you.

In my "situation" with the fire at my former store, I did research on a particular customer's work and found pieces about her order that even SHE didn't know about! She didn't renew her order with us in spite of it, but I KNOW she will be back!

Sometimes you have to NOT charge for the "extras." Or--not so much.

Wendy
 
Baer,

I think you are missing my point, I know there are the $1600+ jobs out there, I just don't think that they are as common as the $500-1000 jobs which I think are much more common.

We both share a former sales rep for a major moulding company, he was my rep before he was yours and moved on to another career. The one thing that he told me that he was amazed with is the craftmanship of the frameshops in the Pacific Northwest, you were one in particular that he mentioned. He told me that many of the reps in your area had a very hard time selling moulding because of this, the framers all wanted to hand carve and finish bare wood instead of buying prefinished moulding. I have no problem with that, and I know it is done all over the country not just the Pacific Northwest. I do think that it is not the norm throughout the country. Most buy a prefinished moulding, make a square and put something in it, the only time they manipulate the finish is when they scratch it in the saw or shoot a nail through the side.

My point is that more people could probably relate to a project like I mentioned because they are not looking at it as "that was a $1600 frame job?" My example was purely hypothetical, I could care less what it is being framed, I thought that the point of the article was to remind people what goes into a frame job and to make sure that they charge for it. I did not say anything about wanting an article about wanting to know how to mount items.

Baer, you know me, and you know that if I were to write an article about mounting or any part of framing an item, I would be the laughing stock of the industry, I have said it here and I will say it again, I am not a framer.

My point is that if Decor would have thought about this a little more, they would have had Stuart write about a framing project at a lower price point that more people could relate to so we would not have had 4 pages on the Grumble, not to mention all of the people who say nothing, talking about what the price of the project was instead of absorbing some good information from a very talented instructor.
 
Tim, the point IS the large price tag. Most are doing the $175 to $350 jobs just fine.... but it's when you get out of that box that they get lost, and then loss their perspective and start charging based on their personal wallet.... but they forget that THEIR wallet needs feeding too.

I remember the first frame job that I quoted that went north of the $1,000. Shar was in the other room and as I nonchalantly quoted the (I think it was about $1,400), I heard a quick intake of breath as she broke the sheet of glass she was cutting. . . . then I asked if the customer wished to pay half or all today....

After they left, having paid half, I peeked around the corner to find Shar sitting on the stool and white as a ghost. Her biggest frame up till them was $700. I've since gotten her used to multiples of the four figure frames...

But the point here is, as you know, I mentally fit the piece in my head and can some what "pull a ball park out of my ****". ONLY because I've done them so many times. But as in Stuart's article, it's not a simple triple opening with double glazing and a deeper frame. It's the engineering and sourcing then fitting in unfamiliar territory. That, if you don't understand how to get to the right price is the same as charging $6 for all mats under 16x20..... just because you have a CMC and a lot of scrap.

If Stuart had written an article about pricing out a triple opening mat with encapsulation slapped in a chop from Studio Moulding with Wall buddies that priced out at $315..... we either wouldn't be having this conversation, or we would all be laughing. But knowing Kristin Stepik-Bashire's taste and level of excellence that she demands of us freelance writers....... she never would have even given that simplistic an article a second thought.

There is a reason DECOR is getting ready to celebrate it's 130th year of servicing our industry; because it has always sought to educate, elevate, illuminate, and get framers to stretch beyond the "thats nice". That is why there is a Top 100, and only DECOR has it.

So yeah, the kids can make all the fun they want about the first and oldest provider of education and information in this industry. But for all the information that is out there on the internet, there is no down to earth experience talking. For that, you need people who have been there before you, and that my friend takes time in grade..... and Stuart has that. It's possible to go from first class in framing to MCPF in 6 short years..... but it takes long years and a lot of framing to have his kind of experience. And if for nothing else, he should be afforded his due that just maybe there is someone out there that read the article, and learned; instead of made fun.

As a writer and teacher, I'll take that "one" over anything else. When I see one of my students lay a perfect fabric mat that is just solidly kick a$$..... It makes me sleep just a little bit sounder. And on a selfish note, I know that the people that scoff and deride others work.... they will never know that warm filling of ones chest that only a teacher (maybe a parent) can know.

The only thing that I found missing in the article.... I would have liked to know what kind of encapsulation they did on the celluloid.
 
It has the break down.

Frame $285 x 3 = $855
Double mat = $126
Mounting $140
MG $240
Fit $175
Lighting = $125
Second cover = $35

Yall are being way to nice about the design. The maroonish (slightly dark red) mat on that bright yellow and red frame is ghastly. Plus the bright (literally) orange filmstrip clashes with the top mat something awful. From what I can tell from the picture, I do like that frame.

I think this story goes south on the frame. If you add up the breakdown minus the frame it comes to $841. This piece is small and I don't sell MG because I don't believe there to be enough value at $240 for that piece of glass. So right away my price would probably be $640. So at this point we are a long way from $1696 in a typical shop. The only inflated fees I see in the story is in materials. Actually the inflated costs are in the frame and glass. The mats were a bit out of line also. Lets be real real honest. It was two rag boards that cost what $16 (total) and he charged $126. God bless him but I coudln't do it with a straight face. So I ask how is this a story on "covering your costs"? I would think any framer open longer than 6 months has the frame and glass pricing down wouldn't you?

Fitting and lighting is $300. Covering costs on things we normaly don't is the story right? That doesn't sound out of line to me. It's probably what I would have charged and I don't write articles.

The design may have nothing to do with this story. Still I think the controversy is because a $1600 job doesn't look like a $1600 job. If I told you that I paid $59,000 for my car, you wouldn't expect me to pull up in a Saturn. The price for this frame doesn't reflect the look of the final product. So if you ask me this was a lesson in salesmanship and that story went uncovered. If you turn out the light in that frame then you are looking at about a $300 frame job. Selling a $300 (looking) frame job for $1600, now that I would like to read about.

Carry on.
 
I hate to frankenthread, but it was mentioned and its peeve of mine. The top 100 doesn;t mean a heck of a lot, and my apologies to those who have won it in the past that are truley tops.

A former company I worked for won this "honor" many years ago. I can tell you this was no top 100 company. I remember the work we did to prepare for the submission( I took the photos for it). I believe it was for advertising for local artist events. If you put together a good submission you can win.

I mean let's be honest here.
 
any way for one of us to get hold of the framer and find out the answers to all these unanswereds????????? would settle the dust on most of this issue.

I am opened-month in amazement:confused: that there were sooo many people sooo 'down' on this framer for getting soooo much $$$ for something soooo mundane(general consensus?)!!!!!!! ???????????????(haven't opened the issue, yet).

they couldn't sell anything to this kid in FLA(minors can ONLY be held accountable for food/clothing/shelter---anything else you 'sell' them is free to them---they do NOT have to pay you for it!).
That being said, the design WAS produced/sold! the $$ collected! If their state/local laws don't care, & kids parents 'don't' object(it's probably been 4-12 mos since the sale-if decor holds true to form on the lead time for the print industry), why should this 'jury' of their peers object, so strongly, to how much $$ it cost????????? As I said--haven't open the issue yet--but based on what I read here, I'm feeling like some "congrats" for a very large 'up-sale' are much more in order than the attitude being shown. and only after THAT should we perhaps proceed on to the question of how much advantage was taken of this 16yrolder---& I am holding onto MY belief that THAT is none of anyone's business other than the individuals involved--the kids either does or does NOT have the authority to contract/pay for this work, &/or the kids parent/guardian either will/will NOT intervene and the situation will be resolved in whatever manner .... certainly nothing to merit this tempest in the teapot!
 
Jay, you keep forgetting KY aint NY, and "Closed Corner" to the rest of us means more than "jus a largar nale inna corner".

And if you paid $59,000 for that beater Saturn, then I sure wish I was your car salesman. :D
 
ai finally got a chance to see the article, and anyone who thinks this is a 'run of the mill' piece just isn't looking closely.

I think it is pretty spectacular, and probably worth darn near what they got for it. Probably not in Hagerstown, but that ain't Hagerstown either.

And I am guessing the photos don't do it justice, either....
 
I'm amazed at the attitude toward a writer and a magazine. What ever happened to live and let live and a sense of fairness?

There are so many different kinds of framing businesses and yes, there are many out there who regularly get $1,600 and even more for their work. Many years ago I got $1,200 for framing a 15¢ rubbing from Thailand and it was worth every cent. Years ago the average ticket price was $150 for framers in the US. It sounds like some of you are still in that range, which is fine if that is your business plan, but most "custom" framers can and do make much more than that and it is usually because they have specialized skills. Baer teaches fabric classes because framers can sell hand wrapped fabric mats if they know how to design with them. Linda Wassell teaches how to make beautiful French mats, because people want to buy them. Many framers sell high end and closed corner frames. I doubt many BB's do, but "custom" framers do.

I learned to frame from the pages of DECOR and still find information in it. DECOR is written for the art market as well as the framing market, so it is different from PFM. Both have value and both are important to the industry. I'm really surprised by such negativity. The economy has affected everyone, DECOR might be smaller than it used to be, but I know Kristen the editor cares a a great deal about providing a good product. If you want different articles, ask for them or write and submit them.

I know I'm setting myself up for attack here but when did the Grumble get so many negative people posting? Are they really experienced professional framers who can't sell for over $1,000 on a regular basis? Sorry, don't mean to insult anyone, but it seems if insults are to be handed out, this is the thread to do it in. Sad.
 
nona powers said:
Are they really experienced professional framers who can't sell for over $1,000 on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

Yes. At least I think I am and no I can't. You may disagree.

Nona, I hope you don't mistake honesty with negativity. They are different. Are we supposed to ohh and ahh over something that defy business as so many of us know it?

If your talking about comments about Decor, then the negativity could either taken as an insult or it could just be market research. I have a long standing belief that customers are never honest to your face. When I hear "well my customers say" or "we hear so often" I don't put much weight into what follows because face to face we are polite to our fellow humans to a fault. I would give anything to sit in on a meeting of my customers discussing me without them knowing I'm listening. I've even thought about customer cards that could be anonymous. Good, bad, or indifferent I think brutal honesty (but polite) is often lacking. That is really all I see here. Would it help if we all praised décor even when it falls way short?

Or maybe we are simply just viewing this differently.
 
I'm wondering if it is "negativity" on our part, or jealousy, or avarice, or just plain ecomonics that has us all in a tussle over this issue.

Just the IDEA of charging someone that much seems so outrageous to me! I've been in this business for twenty years and have done complex shadowbox framing before--just not with a LIGHT source!--and never charged so much!

Who's missing out here? Me, not charging enough? The customer for the Killer Tomatoes piece, who may have over-paid? Or Decor for catching all this flak?

Just wondering...
Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA
 
I'm not crazy about the design, but I have no problem with the price. Just because something seems easy to us is no reason to charge less. We are supposed to get better and make work more profitable.

Some might consider it to be fun to spend an hour of their lives surfing the net for a light to go into a frame. I don't call it fun and it needs to be charged just as any other professional would charge.
 
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