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Beauty, Brawn, and Brains: Wizard Z1 CMC

Attaching Canvas In Float Frame

shayla

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We usually make our own strainer frames and attach to float frames with metal offset clips. This customer's stretched canvas doesn't come out that far, and from the back, is flush with the inside of the float frame. Would you attach it by screwing angle brackets into both, or by running screws straight through the frame into the stretcher back, with no extra metal helpers framing mindys float canvas july 17, 2020 IMG_1139 (2).jpg ?

Extra Metal Helpers sounds like a band name.



framing mindys float canvas july 17, 2020 IMG_1139 (2).jpg
 

neilframer

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I would pre-drill and counter sink holes in the back of the frame. Then S/R screws as long as needed. View attachment 34893
This is exactly what we do using drywall screws.
It's much easier than using brackets and with the screws countersunk, the back is smooth with nothing sticking out.
Always make sure that the screws are not too long.

The design company we work with likes to have the canvas with about a 3/16" to 1/4" reveal around and about 1/8" to 1/4" recessed from the face of the floater.
I stretch the canvas, cut and join the floater and then set the canvas in the floater.
Sometimes we have to shim the canvas up with 1/2" gator strips or wood strips to get the proper height in the frame, usually between the sometimes fatter corners of the canvas.

If the canvas is folded over on the back in the corners, we put mat board strips, 4 ply or 8 ply as needed in the sections between the corners to level the center areas with the fatter corner areas.
I just ATG the strips to the frame so they won't show in the reveal area.

To center the canvas in the frame, I just shove pieces of Fome Core as spacers between the canvas and the floater near the corners and then drill/countersink in the back near the corners and put in the 8 screws in the corner areas. Then pull out the Fome Core spacers.
Then once it's in the frame and centered, I put screws in the middle areas as needed, 2 or 3 as needed based on the size of the canvas.
The canvas and frame become as one and the frame is reinforced like this.

We have a special drill bit that drills and countersinks at the same time using a short bit.
Screen Shot 2020-07-17 at 3.32.42 PM.png
You don't want to drill thru the front of the canvas..:shutup:
We stretch and frame about 40 canvases a week in floaters, most of them huge.
62" x 86", 52" x 110", etc. etc, every week.
On some of them we have to paint the sides of the canvas to cover the white.
 
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shayla

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This is exactly what we do using drywall screws.
It's much easier than using brackets and with the screws countersunk, the back is smooth with nothing sticking out.
Always make sure that the screws are not too long.

The design company we work with likes to have the canvas with about a 3/16" to 1/4" reveal around and about 1/8" to 1/4" recessed from the face of the floater.
I stretch the canvas, cut and join the floater and then set the canvas in the floater.
Sometimes we have to shim the canvas up with 1/2" gator strips or wood strips to get the proper height in the frame, usually between the sometimes fatter corners of the canvas.

If the canvas is folded over on the back in the corners, we put mat board strips, 4 ply or 8 ply as needed in the sections between the corners to level the center areas with the fatter corner areas.
I just ATG the strips to the frame so they won't show in the reveal area.

To center the canvas in the frame, I just shove pieces of Fome Core as spacers between the canvas and the floater near the corners and then drill/countersink in the back near the corners and put in the 8 screws in the corner areas. Then pull out the Fome Core spacers.
Then once it's in the frame and centered, I put screws in the middle areas as needed, 2 or 3 as needed based on the size of the canvas.
The canvas and frame become as one and the frame is reinforced like this.

We have a special drill bit that drills and countersinks at the same time using a short bit.
View attachment 34895
You don't want to drill thru the front of the canvas..:shutup:
We stretch and frame about 40 canvases a week in floaters, most of them huge.
62" x 86", 52" x 110", etc. etc, every week.
On some of them we have to paint the sides of the canvas to cover the white.
Thanks for your detailed reply. It'll likely help framers doing future archive searches, too.

I do the same thing with foam core, to position it in the frame, and we have these bits for counter-sink drilling, so will go the way you and Ralph suggest. Thanks for describing how you create space to push the art up toward the front of the float frame. This is set back a bit more than I'd like, so will do that with gator strips to shim.
 

Woodworks by John

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We usually make our own strainer frames and attach to float frames with metal offset clips. This customer's stretched canvas doesn't come out that far, and from the back, is flush with the inside of the float frame. Would you attach it by screwing angle brackets into both, or by running screws straight through the frame into the stretcher back, with no extra metal helpers View attachment 34892 ?

Extra Metal Helpers sounds like a band name.



View attachment 34892
 
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Woodworks by John

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I use sheet metal screws with washers. My preference is to drill oversized holes for the screws to give some adjustment. You're kinda of working upside down and backwards so I'll get the canvas snug then flip the frame/picture over to adjust spacing equally in the frame. Once satisfied I'll tighten them down and you're good to go!
 

Frances M.

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When we need an oddly shaped bracket, I remove the hanger part from the smaller 2-hole strap hanger and use the flexible strap part to make the shape we need. Sometimes it is easier to use that over drilling, especially if we have had to lift up a shallow painting for a deeper floater.
 

David Waldmann

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I would pre-drill and counter sink holes in the back of the frame. Then S/R screws as long as needed.
Substitute some more relevant type of screw and I will agree. S/R screws are for S/R!

Get thee to McFeeley's (many others out there I'm sure) and buy some Torx/Star drive screws.

Screenshot 2020-07-29 18.53.16.png
 

wvframer

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But they make such a lovely noise when they snap! :rolleyes:
 
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Larry Peterson

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I love McFeely’s. It is where I get all my screws for framing.
Ditto. I use their combo and square drive #4 and #6 screws, mostly 1/2"
 

Ylva

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I do too. I have three sizes, use 1/2 mostly, but also 5/8 and 3/4
All combo/square

They are the best. Most times I don’t even need to pre-drill either.
 

Woodworks by John

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Interesting hearing everyone's opinions so will add this: I don't like to use a power drill around art work and going into the back of someones canvas with one to mount in a float is just downright scary! Not pre-drilling could lead to cracking an old stretcher too. I'm pretty old school and use gimlets only for those purposes, plus a bit of beeswax on the screw just to be safe. What's a gimlet you ask? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimlet_(tool)
 

Larry Peterson

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Interesting hearing everyone's opinions so will add this: I don't like to use a power drill around art work and going into the back of someones canvas with one to mount in a float is just downright scary! Not pre-drilling could lead to cracking an old stretcher too. I'm pretty old school and use gimlets only for those purposes, plus a bit of beeswax on the screw just to be safe. What's a gimlet you ask? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimlet_(tool)
It can be scary but that's why we get the big bucks. (I wish). ;)

I use a drill bit stop when pre-drilling.
 

Larry Peterson

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I do too. I have three sizes, use 1/2 mostly, but also 5/8 and 3/4
All combo/square

They are the best. Most times I don’t even need to pre-drill either.
I forgot about the 5/8's that I use. Here are my screws.

This is the one I use the most:
6 x 1/2 in. Wood Screws, Truss Head, Black, Combo Drive
https://www.mcfeelys.com/6-x-1-2-in...ad-black-combo-drive-qty-1000-0604-trb-m.html

I use this for most sawtooth hangers and turn buttons. I use a combo drive here as the CX will need to partially unscrew turn buttons.



I use this one on frames that are too skinny for the one above. I Also carry this one in a #4 x 3/8 in. for those really thin frames.
4 x 1/2 in. Wood Screws, Unplated Steel, Flat Head, Square Drive
https://www.mcfeelys.com/4-x-1-2-in-wood-screws-unplated-steel-flat-head-square-drive-qty-1000.html




I use these on heavier frames both for sawtooth and Wall Buddies.
6 x 5/8 in. SPAX Interior Wood Screws, Pan Head, Clear Zinc Plated
https://www.mcfeelys.com/6-x-5-8-sp...d-clear-zinc-plated-combo-drive-qty-1000.html



The first one I use many thousands a year. The other 2 less than a thousand a year.
 
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CHolt

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Use a piece of tape to make a flag on the shank of your drill bit to gauge the depth of your pilot hole. Many of you probably already know this trick.
 

Attachments

wvframer

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I use that tape trick. I thought I was brilliant but discovered people have been doing it as long as there have been drills!:)

I actually have a drill accessory for that, but it is in the drawer and the tape is right there.

Larry, I surely must have seen combo drive screws before, but didn't know what I was looking at. I can shut down now, I learned something new today!
 

Larry Peterson

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I use that tape trick. I thought I was brilliant but discovered people have been doing it as long as there have been drills!:)

I actually have a drill accessory for that, but it is in the drawer and the tape is right there.

Larry, I surely must have seen combo drive screws before, but didn't know what I was looking at. I can shut down now, I learned something new today!
I prefer the tape. Its easier to move it up or down depending on the moulding.

I prefer the square drive over the combo. The square drive stays on the drill bit better but most folk don't have a square drive bit at home so I use the combos. I drive it with the square drive bit and they can loosen the turn button using a phillips.
 

wpfay

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What's a Gimlet you ask?

Dry Gin and Rose's Lime water.

As far as pre-drilling, is use my father's old hand crank Stanley drill. It was part of a kid's tool kit he got at age 12 in 1931. I have the torpedo level that came with the kit as well.
I put a wrap of tape on the the bit for depth measurement.
 
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wvframer

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I would rather drink one than use one. Those Stanley hand drills are probably pretty valuable now.

I have a cheapo gimlet that came in a kids tool kit when I was 8 or 9 yo. It is about 4 1/2 inches long and has a nice threaded end and a cast red plastic handle. I keep meaning to buy something new that seems more appropriate for a professional.
 

wvframer

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So, Ylva are those things sharp enough that you don't need to drill pilot holes?
 

Ylva

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I usually poke with awl. But sometimes I use the screw itself for the poke. (Very professional lingo here)

Hardwoods I still predrill. Anything else, I have yet to see any split wood without really predrilling
 

wvframer

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Frankly, I am seeing so much snot wood that I can practically push the screw in sometimes. I do use an awl for those.

But I do pilot holes for any hardwoods. I still do a fair amount of maple and the occasional walnut.

Those screws look like they would just drill right into most woods.
 
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Ylva

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They do! If I’m lazy...which of course I’m never. Ummmm, I use awl for hardwoods and use those screws.
I have a hand drill or three somewhere.
 

shayla

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The first place I worked at used tape on the drill bits. We use drill bit stops we bought from a marine supplier.

I've hesitated to use screws requiring special bit shapes to remove. It seems like most customers would be likelier to have a Phillips head around the house. But maybe that's not so big a concern? What say?
 

neilframer

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Here is a small group of canvases that we stretched and some floaters.
Screen Shot 2020-07-30 at 7.15.17 PM.png Screen Shot 2020-07-30 at 7.14.59 PM.png Screen Shot 2020-07-30 at 7.14.40 PM.png Screen Shot 2020-07-30 at 7.14.21 PM.png
We have about 100 in the works now with another 400 canvases coming in the next couple of weeks.
This is separate from our regular retail and other commercial framing.
This goes on and on, week after week with no breaks.
All from the design company run by my longtime friend.
I used to work with her before she opened her own design company in 2001.

Corporate designers come to her company.
She has the samples and 5 designers work at her company.
The designs are agreed upon, we get the work and then go to work.

I've explained how we do it in a previous post, it's not that complicated.
Our results are excellent and nothing comes back.
There are other ways to do these things, I like to stick with what works for me/us and what moves the stuff along successfully.:thumbsup:
 
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wpfay

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The idea of drilling a pilot hole before inserting a screw is to relieve some of the wood so the threads get a better bite and the screw doesn't force the wood fibers apart.
In theory it is just as important to drill in soft wood as it is in hardwood.
 
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Ylva

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The first place I worked at used tape on the drill bits. We use drill bit stops we bought from a marine supplier.

I've hesitated to use screws requiring special bit shapes to remove. It seems like most customers would be likelier to have a Phillips head around the house. But maybe that's not so big a concern? What say?
I honestly don’t want customers to remove the screws. So if they can’t find a special screwdriver, that would be more of a plus.
 

Larry Peterson

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Here are my drills. The first is a #2 Square Drive. The second is a taped drill bit stop and the third is a #0 square drive.

drills.jpg
 

wpfay

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I also use cabinet screws when screwing the floater to the back of the stretcher, following the general pattern of shimming and building up the back of the stretcher to get it into proper position before drilling and screwing in place. The cabinet screws I use look like drywall screws, but have a true beveled head for countersinking as opposed to the bugle bell shaped head of a drywall screw.
 

shayla

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The idea of drilling a pilot hole before inserting a screw is to relieve some of the wood so the threads get a better bite and the screw doesn't force the wood fibers apart.
In theory it is just as important to drill in soft wood as it is in hardwood.
I generally don't, either. It just seems like, if they ever needed to, something they have around would be easier. That said, if these others work better, why not?
 

David Waldmann

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So, Ylva are those things sharp enough that you don't need to drill pilot holes?
Probably not available in that size, but look for screws with a type 17 point (self drilling/tapping).
 
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tedh

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Here are my drills. The first is a #2 Square Drive. The second is a taped drill bit stop and the third is a #0 square drive.

View attachment 35024
Grrrrrr! Every time a Canadian hears “square drive” they get mad.

Why? Because it was invented by P.L. Robertson, the guy who told Henry Ford to take a hike.

The Robertson screw was invented to drive Americans nuts. Every time I build a shipping box headed for the USA, I give a Jack Nicholson cackle, knowing the recipient has to find a Robertson Number 2 screwdriver.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
 

tedh

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Now wasn’t that just fun?
 

Larry Peterson

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Grrrrrr! Every time a Canadian hears “square drive” they get mad.

Why? Because it was invented by P.L. Robertson, the guy who told Henry Ford to take a hike.

The Robertson screw was invented to drive Americans nuts. Every time I build a shipping box headed for the USA, I give a Jack Nicholson cackle, knowing the recipient has to find a Robertson Number 2 screwdriver.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
We know, we know. Isn't it enough that we are using the durn things. We categorically ignore the Robertson designation because Square Drive is easier on the tongue than Roberson Screw and because we just like pi$$ing off you Canuks. 😜
 

Larry Peterson

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FWIW I have been using Square Drive (take that Robertson) screws for about 30 years. I built a new house in the 90s and have used them on many DIY projects since that time. I very seldom ever use a nail; screws rule. Shelving, framing(house, not picture), finishing the basement, a 20' cherry bar, a 12x18 2 story shed and just about any kind of DIY project. When I built the house I bought maybe 20 different types and sizes. My most used is a #8 x 3". I have probably bought and used 10-20K of those over the years.

I have single handedly propped up the economy of Canada for the last 30 years. 😁 You're Welcome. :thumbsup:
 
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framah

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I helped prop them up with the enormous amount of Canadian bacon I have eaten over those same 30 years!!! :thumbsup:

Tho, it did slip a bit when I stopped drinking Molson's.:beer:
 

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Screwing has always caused some strong emotional reactions, even across international borders. :rolleyes:
 

wpfay

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Sorry Ted, you are not making it any harder to take apart using square drive screws. All sizes 0-3 are in my tool kit. You are actually making it easier.
Now, if you wanted to be cruel, use brass slotted screws and bugger up the slot.
Just in case someone doesn't know where to get these, they are available at most home shelter stores and one of my favorite resources for all things toolish.
 

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Wally is right. Nothing like a damaged brass slotted screw to mess up the day.

I don't do much woodworking that needs brass screws. But I figured out (without guidance) that if I was going to use them, they had to have big pilot holes. I learned so many things the hard way, and not always the first time.

They have their place and when they are visible in a project they are nice, but I hate working with them.
 

shayla

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They have their place and when they are visible in a project they are nice, but I hate working with them.

This also applies to some humans. :cool:
 
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David Waldmann

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Wally is right. Nothing like a damaged brass slotted screw to mess up the day.

I don't do much woodworking that needs brass screws. But I figured out (without guidance) that if I was going to use them, they had to have big pilot holes. I learned so many things the hard way, and not always the first time.

They have their place and when they are visible in a project they are nice, but I hate working with them.
To ease driving of ANY type of screw, lubricate:
  1. Beeswax (may cause problems some types of finish)
  2. Paste wax (may cause problems some types of finish)
  3. Dish soap (may cause rusting/oxidation over time because it's water based)
  4. Grease (will cause problems with most any type of finish other than motor oil)
  5. Spit (least effective but will cause no long term problems other than dry mouth)
 
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