Arrrgh!--Must Vent

Create a Post
C

carladeam

Grumbler
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Posts
49
Loc
Weaverville, North Carolina
I HATE it when a moulding that I have been using for years suddenly changes--the finish is totally different than any previous orders. I simply feel like moulding companies need to keep their moulding consistent.

Example: I have been using a particular Nurre Caxton moulding for an artist for years--and the latest batch looks nothing like it used to. It was a dark, smooth walnut, and it is now a lighter, grainy whatever. This artist sells many different prints that go in to this frame, and their customers do not always by them all at once. Now if they buy a new one it will not match the others at all! I can understand slight differences, but this was not slight. Their answer--"it does happen sometimes". That doesn't do a lot of good.

I don't know anything about moulding manufacturing, but if I had to make a guess, I would think they started using a new wood that takes the stain differently than the original. I am anywhere near on track?

This artist must be jinxed anyways. When Cresent bought out Miller matboard, a lot of the mats she uses were discontinued. (hence the 90 sheets of oversize I bought to have on hand for her) And LJ discontinued one of her fillets.

Maybe we shouldn't be so picky to expect wood to look consistent, but I am.

Well, thanks. I feel better now.
 
It drives us crazy too -but you know what's even worse and I can't understand? How this can be with metal moulding....... there are a few that we consistently have a problem with - and once again - we usually do 10 - 24 of these at a time for a certain customer.
 
Boy do I feel your pain. You work and work with a customer to get just the right colors, that is what we're here to do, right? Then you get hit with a ton of bricks. It's like manufacturers and distrubutors have no conscience, no standards and certainly no will to enforce any kind of quality.:vomit:

It's not only the finish, it's damage on unwrapped sticks, chunks of crud in matboard, terribly joined, warped and twisted moulding that looks like it must surely been resurrected from Katrina. Oh, and never mind the fact that lousy moulding still cost the same or more as the good stuff used to cost.

Believe me, it is enought to make one think it is time to get out of this industry because it's going to #### in a hand basket. :vomit: :vomit:
 
I had that with a Decor moulding that I used a lot. It is now a different color, and very grainy, not the smooth honey color that went with so many things. I don't show that style any more. Pity

But, knock wood, I haven't come up on the chunks of crud, or poorly joined, or twisted moulding. Is this because you buy in large quantities Jo? I generaly don't buy in bulk, and when I get something that I can't use, I send it back.

N
 
Wow, Jo. I guess I'm one grateful framer here, because I haven't run across much in the way of garbagy moulding, and if/when I do, the companies make it good. Once in awhile a warpy one comes in, but not often enough to make me want to get out of the biz! We recently got several lengths of one which were obviously of different wood...some sticks were much lighter in weight than the rest...but no visible differnce in appeareance, thank goodness. And once in awhile the stain is a bit lighter/darker, or grain is a little different than another stick, but we send it back with a piece we need matched, and they (I'm talking about all my vendors here) do their best to make it work.

Who are you getting this junk from, so we'll all know not to go there?? Whistle-blowing time.
 
Oh,... I just gotta jump in here, too. I'm starting to grind my teeth over the moulding we've been getting. (Can't use it for anything else!) We've spent a LOT of time trying to refinish sticks to look like the corner sample. Sometimes we don't have time to send it back.

And another thing that drives us crazy is when multiple sticks aren't even the same size! Different depths, widths, etc... We've got one order in the shop right now where the moulding sells for $28/ft, and the chopped pieces don't match. Sent it back once and got "mismatched" again! I know the guys in the warehouse are pushed to get the orders out and can't be bothered by worrying about that 1/16" difference in the depth of the lip. But I have to worry about it. The customer is spending nearly $1K for this order.

Oddly, Nurre Caxton is one of the few companies that we work with that have maintained consistency with us.

Yesterday we spent nearly five hours with a woman who ordered 160' to wrap around 29 pictures for a one-woman show. Fortunately, we won't have to worry about consistency. The manufacturer discontinued it just the day before.

:soapbox:
 
Really, who are these companies?? This is shocking my sense of order and fair-play.

Nancy
 
Have the same problem with a Don Mar black moulding.
Have a artist who uses a lot of simple black moulding.
Was a matte finish, suddenly went to flat black, then went to a SLIGHTLY different profile. If you get 3 or 400 ft now you have to keep it all separate and you just don't know what you are getting next.
 
Ah yes, consistency, or lack thereof, is getting to be a regular, it seems..:fire:

Once I got a shipment of 6 sticks where the finish was different in 4 of them from the other 2!

Needless to say, that sample made acquaintance with the dumpster.
 
When a moulding comes in that does not match the corner sample chosen by the customer, I notify the customer to see if it will be okay or to chose another. I have always been able to return the unacceptable ones.

On CMI, my problem has been poor quality and lack of customer service. I am slowly pulling their samples off the wall. They seem to have a problem with notifying customers of deletions. After phrasing the question just right, I found that if it is not in the online catalog it was discontinued. I had an intern in January that went through all the samples and checked them with the catalog.
 
In case anyone thinks Carol is coming out of left field about her CMI comment. I named names (CMI being just one of them) in an earlier reply and then deleted it. ....driven by guilt this morning, I guess.

Sorry, Carol, for pulling the rug out from under you. Yes, CMI has been one of our recent problems about matching sizes in the same chop.

About 6% of all our deliveries result in returns, notifying customers, costly refinishing, and dumpster-dumping the samples. That's too much.
 
Blow that Whistle!

Matoaka said:
In case anyone thinks Carol is coming out of left field about her CMI comment. I named names (CMI being just one of them) in an earlier reply and then deleted it. ....driven by guilt this morning, I guess.
.
Click to expand...

Not long ago, on another thread, we discussed the naming names thing and many feel that if you've gone to lengths (pun intended) to correct the problem with the company and still have problems such as these, isn't it in the best interest of all of us, as framers, to talk about it and name the offending vendors?

Because of our numbers here, maybe if enough of us squawk about it, or stop using them altogether, it will make a big enough impact that they might look into it and correct the problem. Maybe not, but how will we know unless we try?

I'm not talking about bashing a company over an isolated incident, or if you just want to complain and not do anything about it, then don't complain! But if you consistantly have problems and have tried, tried, tried to correct them with the company....why feel guilty? You might be doing many other framers a great favor!! Isn't that really what the Grumble is for? Helping each other?
 
We should be thankful that the stuff comes out (generally) as good as it does.
A change in employee will probably result in a different finish. I don't suppose that longevity in this level of employee is very long. What a dirty job!

Different pieces of wood accept stains and paints differently due to grain, hardness, moisture content, and who knows how many other factors.

Unfortunatly, you can't tell how it's going to come out until it has come out.

Wood, depending on its grain, hardness, and moisture content, will often come out a slightly different shape. Unfortunatley, this will only become apparent AFTER it is milled.

So... I'm sure that all these variables (and the returns involved) is why moulding prices are so expensive. I know a guy who is doing quite well selling moulding that doesn't quite match the production samples.

Speaking of price... can you imagine how much it costs to supply "Free Samples" to every frame shop who wants them? And we all know that "Free" costs all of us.

I often wonder how may corner samples you'd have up if you had to pay for them?

Overcoming these finish and shape problems is why you get the big bucks :)
 
I know the most productive way to handle companies that consistently give poor service and/or poor quality product, dumpsterize their samples.

We should all pick 3 companies that we enjoy doing business with and carry a decent quality product and go with them.

Everyone of us will have a different pick of 3.

As for naming the bad guys, this is the Grumble after all.

Name'em and shame'em.
 
No reason to name names, just pick one. The general state of the moulding we all use has gone way, way downhill.

Yes, we send them back. I just repacked a package for the third time today. The first time they were just supposesd to send a replacement for the amount that was damaged. So I packed the damaged stock and waited for the call tag. But noooo they sent the entire order again. Had to unpack and repack it with the remainder of the stock. Then the tag came and it said all sticks must be cut for shipping so that the box was no longer than 72". So I open it and cut it and repack it. for the 3rd time. Yes, I'm grateful that they replaced it. Wouldn't you think it would have been just as well to send it correctly the first time?

Next week I have to do the same for another moulding that was supposed to have, clearly have bright RED on it. The replacement order has one stick like we first order we got which had gray on it, NOT red, and other stick, the short one, has the red on it. Totally unuseable.

This moulding doesn't state that it may or may not be close to the color ordered. So, one must assume that you get what the sample looks like, that is what samples are for, right? We're not talking about cheap but consistant foil stamped OEM stuff here. These are big bucks and mid bucks companies. I'm not just talking about the expected minor flaws here and there. This is C#$% that CANNOT be used.

Another example is two sticks that come wrapped together. You take off the wrapping and they pop into a boomerang/rainbow shape. They are so adept at wrapping to make them look perfectly straight coming out of the factory. On a small moulding from one of the incredibly soft woods I can hold it in the saw and manage to force it flat. But on the larger ones 2 of us can't even hold it in the saw so that it can be cut. You all know how far back that will set you getting an order out.

The h@** of it is, it's not the fault of the warehouse/office manager they are powerless to fix the problem all they can do is listen and try to replace it and don't you know they receive a bunch of flack over it from both the customer and the top (for not trying to pass off the junk). When the stock being recieved from the factory is not up to the standards advertised, that means the problem stems from top management, better yet, ownership.

And Greg, when I first started framing moulding was definitely not as unstable as it is now. I don't buy the hand finished excuse for most mouldings, the vast majority are stamped finishes now. Yes there are some framers who finish their own moulding, take more time to produce a very original look and do lots of onsies. If you are a shop that is prepared to do multiples with very quick, less than a week turnarounds then you MUST be able to rely on your suppliers ability to supply a consistent product.

Framers are NOT making big bucks when they spend hours "overcoming" problems to match finishes, replace "mishappen" moulding, apologizing to customers and calling reps because they can't get anywhere with customer service.

I know you framers have all had this experience. Framers in general don't like to rock the boat, complain and come off as the bad guy. But let me tell you the end product will have your customers thinking YOU are the bad guy and they will be complaining and rocking YOUR boat if YOU don't give them what they order in a timely fashion.

One of our famous Texans, Eddie Chiles, once said, in reference to politicians, "Fire the Rascals!". Well, you can't fire your suppliers any more than you can fire a politician, but you can sure GRUMBLE about it and hope that somebody gets the heads up and starts a campaign for quality.
 
On the other hand, I have been very happy with the stuff we get from our suppliers. We have Big Guys and Little Guys on the wall, and the stuff almost always comes in consistent and of good quality. If it doesn't, it is usually 'made good' quickly. Maybe I am too dumb to know that what I am getting is really garbage...
 
I agree with Jo. The amount of damaged, mismatched, and warped moulding we get in is more and more common. Our shops are in the same region, and I'll bet most comes out of the same warehouses. I'm wondering if the warping is not somehow linked to all the hurricanes....does our moulding here in the south/southwest come through the Gulf Coast ports (New Orleans, Houston, etc.), or does it all come in through New York? Could the prolonged dampness and humidity while sitting around so much longer waiting to clear customs have anything to do with it? We have been trying to figure out this issue as well.
 
Ellen, you'd know!

When you get a joint with a space big enough to drive a truck through, no matter how many times you chop it , and when you've gone through 40 feet to get a 24x36 frame and it's still awful (that happened last Friday!), and when you've used up a can of wax in 2 days , and when the joined frame is on the table and you push down on one corner and the opposite corner hits you in the face, and when one side is four shades lighter than the other three sides, and when a stick of moulding looks like a snake....you'd know (exaggerations, yes but...not far, except the first and second ones. And the last, and...!)!

And why do I get these when it's for a rush job on Friday?
 
In China and Malaysia, it seems that a stick of moulding can actually cost $.02 cheaper a foot, if you don't require kiln dried lumber.
Their idea of air dry is 12% moisture by weight.
They are betting on the heat generated by pushing moulding through rough splitters and moulders at 900'/minute to dry and case harden the moulding; And some does.

Then from the moulder (no sanding or staining or human needed) the moulding shoots straight into the hopper that loads the "shell" machine.

Out of the plaster shell to the finishing MACHINE, maybe to a dryer, but most likely straight into the wrapper and into a box.

Later the box is packed in a container that is hoped to be airtight and loaded onto a container ship that is headed for SF, LA, or through the Canal to NO, or NY. Where it sits waiting customs in the hot sun (LA & NO) which turns stuff to steam.....

Then that fine dried, then mangled, then shipped, then steamed moulding is shipped to us.

At a savings of $.02/ft.

75%+ of your wall has a shell. You get to decide how many of these will be problem children. All year long, if you have a problem of twist, warp, bow, shake, shear, seperation, snotwood, crush, wax, mould, silverfish/weavel/mites/borers/etc . . . pitch the sample. Then during Nov/Dec, you limit your surprises.

Finishes that are sampled "Red" and ship "Grey" or "Acid washed Green" are absolutely no excuse. During the sampling process, the vendor should have QCed the moulding. If they are the importer, they brought in at least 5-10,000'. Sampling from random boxes in the production run will give a good over view of what was shipped.

[Imagine what its like trying to return 10,000' to a mfg in Taiwan or Bejing....:help:]

I won't slam anyone here but I will give credit to a few that maintain a good QC before they ship. Nurre has done an good job with the stuff they bring out of Italy and Spain, as does AMPF. Gryphon is always on the lookout for anything that "could become" a problem [Philip learned well from his Grampa]. He also learned about customer service.. if you order a chop of one of those "hard to match in the corner" mouldings, they will "corner match" free of charge if you ask. [Something a couple of the BIG BOYS just laugh at you, if you ask.]

I think for hardwoods, Vermont, Garrett, and Picture Woods produce domestically and buy with the control of certified woods that are Kiln dried to a 4% and graded under the Standard Code for Hardwoods, as to Moulding grade lumber. This allows them to mould stock to uniform profiles that don't change perceptably. The choice of finish is the major difference of the three besides profile.

As for grumbling.... I know for a fact that "THEY" are listening. Not out of fear, but because the care about what you care about.

Afterall, MFG, Vendor, Distributor, Chophouse, Delivery driver, and framer all work for the same person: the customer who hangs the finished product on their wall.
 
Very well stated, Baer, and a good perspective on what's really involoved in getting those "4 sticks of wood" onto our customers' walls.
:cool: Rick
 
On a positive note. My grumble about CMI resulted in a letter from Chris, the GM of the Las Vegas office... asking me what they could do to make things "right". Just hearing from CMI made my day. All problems have been resolved to my satisfaction. This is also a plug for their customer service people in Arizona. Even though we had a problem with quality, we have never, ever, had a problem with the staff. They are super-focused on serving their customers, no extra charge!

Thank you, Chris!

Also a big "thank you" to Baer for all the good information on manufacturing and distribution. You are a boat-load of knowledge... give yourself a pat on your aft.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top