Arlo spacers yellowing prints?

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thedarkroom

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We've just reopened a photograph we printed (pigment inks on 100% rag watercolor paper) and framed a year ago using Nielsen metal moulding and Arlo spacers (no mat). The spacers were in contact with the print. There is now a long linear yellow stain on the paper along the edges of the print underneath the spacers and I suspect that they are the culprits.
Has anyone experienced this and what are your feelings on the cause ?
 
a very disturbing revelation!!!!!!! were they clear or black??? is it possible that the spacers got 'contaminated' while sitting around your workarea? not a usual event that we can see the results of our work within a short time frame....hope someone has an answer(pro OR con).
"I suspect that they are the culprits" ... if thats all that's in the package, there is NO other solution to the situation. hate to stop using the arlo stuff(really LIKE it) but if thats the end result I will drop it like that hot rock! anyone have trouble akin to this with arlo's competition????
 
How and to what was the photo mounted? To what environmental conditions was the framed piece exposed? What kind of glazing was used?

I thought that Arlo spacers were acrylic. Perhaps the dye in the black is unstable.
 
I thought that Arlo spacers were acrylic. Perhaps the dye in the black is unstable.[/quote]

A one point I worked in the semiconductor industry.
Much testing was done and NOTHING Black was allowed in clean rooms.
Not black acyrlic, not black anodize not black nylon or delrin.
Black comes from coal and it does outgas.
We try to stay away from any black in our framing packages.
 
These were clear Arlo spacers. We dry-mounted to bienfang acid-free foam core with Bienfang Buffer Mount. Glazing was conservation clear glass. I am unsure under what conditions the client stored the artwork, but if the environment were somehow particularly unfriendly to the art, I suspect the yellowing (which is rather bright, btw) would have spread throughout the piece, not just on the edges underneath the spacers, no?
Larson tech support stated they believe it is somehow the paper (Hahnemuhle rag 308) but nothing we have ever printed on this very fine stock has ever discolored.
 
How "fresh" was the print itself before being framed? Some paper/ink mfrs. recommend letting the prints "air out" for a certain period before enclosing them. I wonder if this was some kind of outgassing of the print itself happening in the visible area but being blocked along the edges by the acrylic, thereby color-shifting the blocked area. Just a guess.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
How "fresh" was the print itself before being framed? Some paper/ink mfrs. recommend letting the prints "air out" for a certain period before enclosing them. I wonder if this was some kind of outgassing of the print itself happening in the visible area but being blocked along the edges by the acrylic, thereby color-shifting the blocked area. Just a guess.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
Click to expand...

I can't remember exactly but since these prints were for a show, there probably wasn't much time between the printing and the framing (a few hours to a day?). That being said, I am unaware of outgassing of any kind from cotton rag but I will check with the manufacturer - thank you. Outgassing also likely doesn't come from the pigment as the discoloration is along the border, 4"-5" from the edge of the printed image.

anyone have trouble akin to this with arlo's competition????
Click to expand...
I spoke with a gentleman from FrameTek (sp?) who indicated their spacers were made from mylar and wouldn't produce this. Definitely worth a shot.
 
Are you sure that the spacers in question are 'ACRYLIC' ? There are many many types of plastic and acrylic is only one type. Also only domestic acrylic has NO outgassing. Because the discoloration occurs at the sight where there is pressure from the strips they almost certainly have to be the problem. I'd like to have more information on the product in question since I don't have any specific information about Arlo spacers. Good luck with the problem. If I can be of any service please call.

Lois
Superior Acrylic Frame Co.
Toll Free 877-422-7954
 
thedarkroom said:
...the discoloration is along the border, 4"-5" from the edge of the printed image..
Click to expand...

Aha. That's a horse of a different color. (No pun intended.) Then I'd be inclined to go with Lois's assessment. I think we need to find out some technical specs on the Arlo spacers.

:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick

I just tried their web site arloinc.com, but it is "under construction", so I was unable to link to any information.
 
I am going to say if it was Arlo then maybe this might have happened before? I am thinking it might not be the company. It might have something to do with the prints. Chemicals are chemicals, something could go wrong with that first is my guess.

PL
 
If the discoloration is just at the edges of the print, and underneath the spacers, I think Framing Goddess has nailed it. Likely something to do with outgassing of foamboard (from the cut edge) and gasses being trapped by the spacers.

I think that there is something in the paper or paper coating that is solubilized by the outgassed vapors (maybe blowing agent, maybe unpolymerized monomer) and migrates to the surface of the paper. It's also possible that the vapors affect "whatever" in the paper, causing it to discolor.

If one had $ and samples, the CCI could very likely do analysis to find reasons for this reaction.

Rebecca
 
Thank you

Thank you for the feedback - to summarize, this is caused by one of two things: the Arlo spacers themselves are made with PVC or other non-neutral material, or the (acid-free) foam core has degassed and the gas was trapped by the spacers. We have framed quite a few pieces this way and
I fear this first incident is only the tip of the iceberg and that some liability issues may eventually come up. Who is liable in this case and how should claims be handled ?
Also what is the CCI ?
Thanks again for the input.
 
thedarkroom said:
I fear this first incident is only the tip of the iceberg and that some liability issues may eventually come up. Who is liable in this case and how should claims be handled ?
Click to expand...

This may depend on whether or not you were selling this as conservation. I veiwed your website, nice, and under FQA, I didn't see framing with just the spacers as a recommendation for conservation framing. Just my observation.
 
Chris Paschke

Rebecca said:
If the discoloration is just at the edges of the print, and underneath the spacers, I think Framing Goddess has nailed it. Likely something to do with outgassing of foamboard (from the cut edge) and gasses being trapped by the spacers.

I think that there is something in the paper or paper coating that is solubilized by the outgassed vapors (maybe blowing agent, maybe unpolymerized monomer) and migrates to the surface of the paper. It's also possible that the vapors affect "whatever" in the paper, causing it to discolor.

If one had $ and samples, the CCI could very likely do analysis to find reasons for this reaction.

Rebecca
Click to expand...


My guess is Rebecca is definitely on the right track. I doubt this is any kind of outgassing but rather a reaction of the receptor coating on the surface of the digital paper for pigmented inks reacting to...something in the spacer. I am sending this on to my scientist contacts from my International Standards Organization committee to see what they have to say.

Chris Paschke, CPF GCF
Designs Ink
 
DesignsInk said:
My guess is Rebecca is definitely on the right track. I doubt this is any kind of outgassing but rather a reaction of the receptor coating on the surface of the digital paper for pigmented inks reacting to...something in the spacer. I am sending this on to my scientist contacts from my International Standards Organization committee to see what they have to say.

Chris Paschke, CPF GCF
Designs Ink
Click to expand...
I sure should have reread the above note before sending...a few gramatical errors, but hopefully you get the idea. Try: "I doubt this is any kind of outgassing, but rather a reaction of the receptor coating on the surface of the digital paper. The porous coating for receiving pigmented inks seems to be reacting to something in the spacer."

Sorry
Chris Paschke
 
Would you possibly have access to any other pieces you did ...with this paper as well as other printing paper you might have used?
If so, then you should get them and open them up and check them as well. Might help confirm or reject the theory.
 
This is getting increasingly strange.

Things took a confusing turn: the original yellowed image was part of a show, most of which was dry-mounted (bienfang buffer mount) to archival foam core, and the rest (92"x30" prints) was spray-mounted to acrylite plexi. I asked the artist to open all the unsold frames (12 of them).

The 2 prints spray-mounted to plexi do not exhibit any yellowing.
All the dry-mounted prints show some yellowing.
In all cases the yellowing is noticeable around the edge of the print.
In most cases, there is also yellowing around the edge of the image itself (3" away from the border - and the spacers).
The yellowing is only on the print itself, not on the foam core.

At this point, I feel strongly that we need to send this off to a conservator that might best be able to establish what sort of chemical reaction is taking place in the enclosure and identify what component of our workflow is causing the problem.
Who is best able to handle this in the southern USA?
 
Oh great! Has anybody seen anything like this with Framespace spacers, the "S" shaped ones without adhesive?

I just expensively built a bunch of big frames exactly sized to images to mount with the Framespacers that will arrive here tomorrow. Prints are pigmented inkjet-on-cotton rag (Silver Rag).

Avoiding mattes sounded like such a smart idea. I thought framing was going to be easy, what happened? I even printed 1/4" black borders where the spacers will contact, maximum ink coverage there, duh!

It's all going to be OK, I should just keep going, right?
 
Eureka?

I spoke with a conservator over the phone today. They think that this is likely caused by moisture from the inks in the press. This would make good sense: shows are always printed and framed down to the wire and there might have been very little time between the printing and the dry-mounting so that the inks didn't have enough time to cure. We also didn't have a vacuum press back then, and used an mechanical press with an unreliable thermostat. There is a good chance the prints we wanted rare got well done instead.
I am sending samples off to the conservator for a forensic test and will report on their findings when I get them.
Thanks all for your time, concern and input. Much appreciated.
 
Experiment

We were able to reproduce the yellowing around the image by dry-mounting a print fresh off the printer at 300 degrees for an hour. It is looking like the spacers have nothing to do with this issue. Still waiting on the conservator's word.
 
thedarkroom said:
We were able to reproduce the yellowing around the image by dry-mounting a print fresh off the printer at 300 degrees for an hour.
Click to expand...

And it was only yellow? Sounds like a recipe for brownies, ah those were the days. I assume foam core and RC papers were not involved here.

Bought a cheap 24"x30"x72" Melamine / particleboard clothes closet, plan to turn in into a mildly heated drying cabinet any day now. Light bulbs at the bottom and vent holes drilled in the top, alligator clips on a hinged wire grid to hold the prints. Sort of like an old-fashioned negative drying cabinet. Should be a vast improvement over walls and hallways lined with big prints clipped to foam core for drying. Maybe I'll put a chicken-wire grid over the lightbulbs to avoid burning the place down if a print drops.

Have had absolutely no trouble with drymounted prints since I started air drying them for a week and pre-pressing the print against the mountboard for a minute, minus tissue of course. Besides merely flattening the print I like to imagine pre-pressing drives out the last smidgins of glycol solvent, and so apparently does Bienfang. Too bad service companies don't have the luxury of the long delay time.
 
bill t. said:
And it was only yellow? Sounds like a recipe for brownies, ah those were the days. I assume foam core and RC papers were not involved here.

Bought a cheap 24"x30"x72" Melamine / particleboard clothes closet, plan to turn in into a mildly heated drying cabinet any day now. Light bulbs at the bottom and vent holes drilled in the top, alligator clips on a hinged wire grid to hold the prints. Sort of like an old-fashioned negative drying cabinet. Should be a vast improvement over walls and hallways lined with big prints clipped to foam core for drying. Maybe I'll put a chicken-wire grid over the lightbulbs to avoid burning the place down if a print drops.

Have had absolutely no trouble with drymounted prints since I started air drying them for a week and pre-pressing the print against the mountboard for a minute, minus tissue of course. Besides merely flattening the print I like to imagine pre-pressing drives out the last smidgins of glycol solvent, and so apparently does Bienfang. Too bad service companies don't have the luxury of the long delay time.
Click to expand...
Allowing an inkjet print to dry is referred to as "dry down", which as been recommended at a minimum of two weeks. Some manufacturers (Epson) who claim instant dry only think a week is necessary. The thing is, that this moisture ususally causes clouding on the inside of the glazing, not yellowing.
Interesting you were able to reproduce the yellowing. This adhesive triggered yellowing thing has been around for a few years with BufferMount. Ilford scientists found the yellowing was occurring on the white layer coated under the ink eceptor coating, not the actual image or the paper itself.

Chris A. PAschke, CPF GCF
Designs Ink
 
I want to bring this topic back up as I just had a photographer bring in a panorama shot he had printed on a watercolor rag paper and it is SERIOUSLY yellowed... not only around the edge of the print but in one area it has bled a ways into the image.

Was there any more info gleaned about the Beinfang buffered mount being the culprit or has there been anything about some other source.

Thanks for any bits of info.
 
Conservator's evaluation

Sorry if I zapped a follow-up on this. Right off the bat let me say that the spacers had nothing to do with the problem.

As a reminder of the sequence of events, most of a show which we printed on rag paper with ultrachrome inks, mounted, and framed showed significant yellowing around the image, around the border of the prints, and in both places. Because of time constraints, the prints were mounted shortly after having been printed (probably minutes in most cases). Some images (92" long) were spray mounted to acrylic and the smaller pieces were dry-mounted on a mechanical press. Only the dry-mounted prints exhibited the problem.

We sent the yellowed prints over to a conservator who believes that the thermostat on the mechanical press was off and that we mounted at higher temp than we thought we did. Because the inks hadn't had time to cure, the heat from the press caused a migration of the inks through the paper fibers. up to the edge where they could no longer migrate.

We verified that this hypothesis was correct by replicating the conditions: we mounted at 300 degrees freshly printed images and observed the same yellowing after a day.

We then performed the same operation but on our 4468 vacuum press at 180 degrees and saw no yellowing.

I hope this helps.
 
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