Archival framing

Bharat Mirchandani

True Grumbler
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Posts
66
From
Mumbai India
I sell framed Black & White prints. I use archival materials and print them on archival paper, and assure my customers that it can hang on your walls for 2 years without showing any signs of ageing. My question is How far am I responsible ?.I am new to framing-not to photography.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Vendor
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
4,665
From
Worcester, MA
I suspect it depends on local laws more than anything else.

Here, with your two year warranty, and no other data or disclaimer, I would guess that every sale you made could legitimately come back for a replacement within two years.
 

Framerguy

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
7,261
From
Destin, Florida
Are you using UV inhibiting glass on your photos? If not, how can you have any control over where the piece is hung?

I would imagine that a black & white photo hung in direct sunlight or under strong fluorescent lighting would fade to some degree in the span of 2 years if regular framer's glass was installed on the piece. The problem in my opinion would be proving the degree of fade. The average person would be hard pressed to see any amount of fading in that short time and the equipment used to measure how much a print has faded would be above the access of the average consumer.

If they are injet printed photos then I would say that all bets are off on the fading or the claims of the customers. I haven't seen concrete data to prove to me that any grade of injet print is going to last for the claimed life of the inks used.

If the photos and the framing were good quality I would sell them on their own merits. It sounds to me that a person bent on holding you to a guarantee like that would be able to find some way to get the legal opinion on their side of the argument if the guarantee were not specifically spelled out.

Just my personal opinion on the subject.

Framerguy
 

Jay H

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Posts
9,908
From
KY
In a hallway or bedroom I could see it lasting forever. In a sunny window, I could see it fading in a few weeks. How can you control where it hangs?

I would love to give a warrenty. However there is just to many variables. I guess your claims are rather safe and eating a print or two probably won't kill you. I just wouldn't make that claim.
 

Ron Eggers

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Posts
16,932
From
Wisconsin
Two years is pretty conservative for B&W pigmented inks on good paper. UV glass will help, but would be secondary to the quality of the pigments used.

If you imply a warranty, I expect there's a warranty and you must stand by it. Honestly, though, if I were buying fine art photography, I wouldn't be impressed by a 2-year warranty.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2000
Posts
19,082
From
Suburban Central Ohio
Most Grumblers are in the United States, and probably have no idea about the laws of India. I doubt that Grumblers from Australia or the UK would know, either.

If you want to know about your legal liability, I suggest you ask someone who is familiar with the laws of India.

If you want to know how long a digital photo will last, then that information may be most dependably obtained by analysis of the components of the print and the machinery making it. The Henry Wilhelm Institute is the foremost authority on those tests, I believe.
 

Bharat Mirchandani

True Grumbler
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Posts
66
From
Mumbai India
State-of-the-art image stability* (100 years in typical home display, 200 years in dark storage, 1 to 5 years for commercial display)
Yhe above is from "Kodak.com" and refers to Kodak endura mettalic paper-the one I am currently using.i have no issues with the print, since most grumblers have been framing for ages I want to know-when you say archival framing-how soon would I see the effects of ageing on the mat, moulding etc.
 

Baer Charlton

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
May 24, 2004
Posts
21,029
From
On FB
It might depend on whether you shipped it by FedUp or not... sorry couldn't resist.

Even in a strong lit window.. the glass and frame shouldn't show any signs of ageing.

The mat is a completely different elephant..

Go with solid core cream rag... and you will probably never see a come-back.

If you get 1 comeback for every 1,000 you sell, it that too much?
 
D

Dermot.

Guest
I’m presuming that you are supplying to a consumer (general public) rather than selling B2B (business to business)

In general consumer law in most parts of the world are very similar as they would have there roots in some of the old British laws that were left behind in various countries by the old British Colonial rulers countries likes of Ireland, India, Australia, Canada, USA, Pakistani, New Zealand, Jamaica, to name but some of the locations around the world remember they used to say that “The Sun never set on the British Empire”

The main differences around the world that you will get for consumer law is where old British legislation has been tweaked to suit local conditions and remember that that tweaking can have been dramatic in some countries.

I would suspect that if you can stand over your two year guarantee you have little to worry about…….do keep in mind that if your guarantee is ever challenged in a court in India you will need to be able to prove your claim that your guarantee is good for two years and there in lies your difficulty can you prove your claim of no damage for two years.

Here is one link to Indian consumer rights http://www.indiainfoline.com/lega/cptc/ch01.html

Check it out with your own area consumer agency; I think you will find that there will be some very helpful people there who will talk you through Indies consumer requirements.
 

Bill Henry-

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Posts
20,902
From
Boondock Bowerbank, ME
Business
Retired from the grind
If you’re providing a warrantee for a real B&W <u>photo</u> that has been properly processed with a sufficient rinse time of at least an hour, you should be able to give them a lifetime warrantee providing that the materials are as “archival” as you state.

If, as others say, the prints are ink jet or laser or offset, then all bets are off. There is too much variability with inks, dyes and papers to be able to count on anything lasting through next weekend.

But, I would be reluctant to provide any type of guarantee. There are enough people who, through their own mishandling or ignorance, may try to take advantage of your generosity. Inform them on it’s proper handling, but don’t bail them out if they screw up.
 

stud d

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Posts
2,382
From
next too you
Got to remeber ink A is archival, paper 1 is archival, but together it is anyones guess. Many of these new fangled whachamacallits have never been fully tested. What I mean is there are many paper makers many ink makers, but it could take months to combine the two and test. So they test say three or four combos. Mostly there own brands ABX ink and ABX paper-they work great together and are archival. So separate they must be the same!? Not the case, there have been a fes instances where this has not worked.


So if you are talking real photography it is a different story. Less variables. If you do the standard times for all chemicals and rinses you should be able to say 75 years. But of course that is if all is right. Every measure used in conservation framing makes the 75 years more possible.


PL
 

Ron Eggers

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Posts
16,932
From
Wisconsin
Sorry Patrick (and some other inkjet nay-sayers) but some of the pigmented ink and paper combinations have been tested to death by independent services and the results are published and available to anyone who's interested.

I would contend that there are as many variables in a darkroom print - maybe more, considering all the steps and wash cycles they go through.

If we call them giclee, would that sound more permanent?
 

stud d

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Posts
2,382
From
next too you
Ron, this is by a printer who prints images for Chuck Close, Cindy Sherman, Annie Liebowitz and too many others. He is sent many different papers, printers, inks, and all that too run everyday operational tests for large companies. This from my understanding was something that happened about five years ago.

Hey I don't give too hoots about digital. I do not need too. I am saying this because it was told to me by someone that has been in a situation that has proven this information to be incorrect. That was a few years ago so they may be doing better now!?

PL
 

Bharat Mirchandani

True Grumbler
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Posts
66
From
Mumbai India
Assumingthe print is archival and will not show signs of ageing in the next 5-10 years.What about the rest of the frame? Since most of you on the G have been framing for more than 10 what is your experience-of life expectancy of the frame-mat-moulding.
 

Bharat Mirchandani

True Grumbler
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Posts
66
From
Mumbai India
"If you imply a warranty, I expect there's a warranty and you must stand by it. Honestly, though, if I were buying fine art photography, I wouldn't be impressed by a 2-year warranty."

Ron-neither would I.This job is foe a Hotel and I assume they change the decor in their rooms every two years, that's why the two year guarantee.I am pretty confident of going ahead with the job-Thanks for all the advise-if I do have to replace a few prints-no sweat.
 

Ron Eggers

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Posts
16,932
From
Wisconsin
Bharat, the life expectancy of the frame/mat/glass will certainly be longer than two years.

Hotel framing is a special issue, though. I was doing a lively, though tedious, business a few years ago repairing hotel framing. This hotel had identical frame floral posters in every single room. They were bringing them in, one-at-a-time, for various repairs. I offered them a better price if they'd bring a bunch at once, but they couldn't 'cause they only had one extra.

Most of the damage appeared to be from cleaning staff spraying the glass with glass cleaner and allowing it to run down into the frame. I'm quite sure I charged more for "repairs" than they did for the original framing.

Funny things happen to hotel art and they are often beyond your control.
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2000
Posts
16,195
If I had a proposal that required the same conditions as you (with a two year warranty), I would jump in a heartbeat

Most framers would probably stand by their work forever. Two years? That's a no brainer

We tend to micro-inspect the minutae on this site, but I can't imagine that a single framer wouldn't suggest their work wouldn't last two years

Personally, I would be tickled to death to have a "only two year" liability
 
Top