Anyone traded up from Wizard CMC to Fletcher CMC?

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
Founding Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2000
Posts
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San Diego, CA
I'm about to do that, and I'm wondering if any of you other Grumblers have done it, and are there any regrets?

John
 
OK, now that Mike(TNframer)has got me all hyped up over this CMC thang... (30 minutes to lay out a 26 opening mat, 13 of them different sizes, and <10 minutes to cut it! And before yesterday I had never even touched one.) What's the difference between them. And I WILL be going back and reading the Decor comparisons of them.

UGH, I knew this would happen.

Betty
 
Oops, I hate it when someone works on my computer and clears all the important stuff.

No Regrets. Best decision we ever made

Rick Bergeron
 
I just acquired the Wizard in July and love it. I would have compared the Wizard and Fletcher more closely except I was able to pick up a lease from someone going out of business. That's certainly the way to do it if given the opportunity. I was also fortunate that my assistant already knew how to operate it and her husband set it up for me. I know we couldn't have completed all our December jobs (and we guarantee completion no matter when they're brought in) without the W. This year we had many more complicated December jobs than in years past...
 
is it just me and my computer stupidity, or am I the only one who thinks Wizard is horrendously difficult to learn in the CAD program.

I posted privately to another forum user who loved the Wizard, andhe said he had to put all his designs into Corel then put them into Wizard.

I'm also mystified: if it's so easy to use, why does Wizard offer classes around the country to teachusers how to use it? Does Fletcher do that?

Now I've had my Wiz for 4 years, on the rental program, and am not about to get rid of it but only because I can't replace it with something else for the same rental rate I'm paying now,.

But if I could I probably would.,

Again--I'm really really really computer stupid so maybe I need tospend hours learning Wizard proerly.

Just don't think that shold be necessary given the cost of the machine.

Plus, I once had on board a student who knew CAD backward and forward and even he gaveup on the instruction manual--thought it was quite erroneous and too complicted to be of anyhelp.

------------------
Michael LeCompte CPF
The Great Frame Up
 
I have had my Wizard for around four years. The machine works fine, it is not without problems. Some of the stock designs won't cut properly, some won't cut at all, however that is not all that important since I rarely sell "cutsy" designs. It does bother me that Wizard never fixes them though, or maybe they have & I just havn't bothered to look.

I'm sure the Fletcher will have it's own set of problems, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't. I have never purchased any equipment that did not have problems from time to time, it's just part of doing business.

I feel the Fletcher is a better built machine & it should be for the price difference between the two of them.

I spent about a month trying to learn V Cad designing and cutting on the Wizard. The experiance was not one I want to repeat any time soon. Many times the instructions would be followed to the letter, then after phone calls to teck support it was discovered that there where software problems and that paticular function would not work. After about a month of spending one hour a day and many phone calls to tech., trying to learn the V Cad program, my crowning achievment was to cut the "star" in the instruction manual. I never bothered with it again.

I'm hoping the Fletcher will alow me to design my own mats, problem is, I am a computer dummy and a lot of things that are as easy as turning a computer on to some people, are totaly Greek to me.

I have discovered with computer programs, any one can learn them following the instruction manuals, but unless you actually use the program daily, you have probably wasted your time learning them. The V Cad program in Wizard just does not get used enough in my shop to try and remember all the complex steps to designing and cutting.

John

OH NO! Spell Check is gone, now every one reading my posts are going to have to become code breaking experts.
smile.gif
 
Michael

Join the club, I do not have a CMC yet, I'm seriously starting to look at them now with the intention of trying to buy within the next eighteen months, it won’t be a Fletcher or Wizard (no support at present in Europe) I will most likely look at the Gunner, Zund or from what I can gather the Alpha Trucut is the CMC of CMC's though it will cost lots of Euros, a close friend is on his second Alpha his last one went up in the fire which burnt his workshop to the ground Christmas week, he has his new Alpha in and running already first piece of equipment he replaced, I think that say’s something about the Alpha and CMC in general.

The part that scares me is the "software" end of things, despite having access to some very heavy hitters in the computer world and having taken all sorts of computer training I cannot get my head around the whole computer/software thing (why do you think I keep on such good terms with Ron, I hoping he will be coming to Ireland when I get my CMC "he will have a great holiday")

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Dermot
"May you never forget what is worth remembering, or remember what is best forgotten"



[This message has been edited by Dermot (edited January 18, 2002).]
 
My apologies to Wizard they do have distribution in Europe, Framers Corner in England a manufacturing and distributors of picture framing equipment and supplies owned by Mr. Alistair Cook provide training and support for Wizard CMC.

So I won't get in trouble with Fletcher they also have distribution in Europe, my understanding is that they are not (or not yet) distributing there CMC in Europe.


------------------
Dermot
"May you never forget what is worth remembering, or remember what is best forgotten"

[This message has been edited by Dermot (edited January 18, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Dermot (edited January 18, 2002).]
 
A corollary question to this thread:

Regardless of what you're doing on Wizard/Flether/whatever--how many charge a design fee for these matcutting designs?

I mean anything from a tricky CAD design to doing multiple openings, stairstep-type thingies, etc etc. Or the openings in a Wizard=type template program.

We charge by the hopur and it's built into our Lifesaver database.

Just wondering--not what you charge (don't care) but if you charge at all for your time to do the design.

------------------
Michael LeCompte CPF
The Great Frame Up
 
I make it a practice to avoid posting replies that have a “sales pitch” approach, so if this reply comes off that way I apologize ahead of time.

I want to point out that the CAD program that is include with the Wizard CMC system is an off-the-shelf product. CAD by its very nature is a difficult program to master, developed by engineers for engineers. Our most recent customer survey indicates that less than 5% of our customers ever try to use it. Whether that is an indication of the difficulty of the program or the limited computer experience of our customers is not clear.

Having said that, it was mentioned on a previous post that the frequent trainings Wizard offers around the country is a possible indication of how difficult the program is. Actually, the trainings we offer are almost exclusively for people who want to learn our standard software. Wizard places nearly 600 new machines in the field each year. The majority of these are Rental systems. Typically our rental customers do not opt for initial training (probably because there is a cost), consequently they are left to learn the program on their own. I am not sure about most of you, but since I am a guy, I rarely read directions, I just try to plow my way through. This being the case, I don’t learn all the shortcuts, hotkeys, quick steps, etc, unless someone actually shows them to me. Like Fletcher and Eclipse, we offer free training when someone purchases a system, but it is no secret that more than 75% of our placements are rentals systems, consequently only a fraction of our customers start out with formal training.

I personally believe that we have the most user friendly software (no bias here of course), simply because we have several thousand customers letting us know what they like, need, and want, and we update our software frequently to address these things. I know that Fletcher and Kaibab both offer free trial software or demo software. I would encourage anyone thinking about “trading up” to try them out and make an informed decision as to whether the Wizard software is more or less “difficult”.

Finally, because we recognize that custom designs open up tremendous sales opportunities for our customers, we offer design service for $50 per design (regardless of how long it takes us to create the design). We then send you the file so that you can use the design over and over again. This way, regardless of whether or not someone learns the CAD program, they can sell custom designs.

I am sorry this post is soooooo long, but I wanted to address all the issues I saw popping up. Please feel free to correct me if I have misstated anything, or call me if you want to disagree (or agree) personally.

Edd Pratt
Sales & Marketing Manager
Wizard International
888 855-3335
(Notoriously bad at CAD)
 
I'm going to weigh in with Ed on this subject. CAD is a different animal. I have two Eclipse customers that have mastered it and do an excellent job with it. I have several others that have tried and failed. Eclipse does offer some CAD training when you take an advance course, but in reality you should go to a local trade school and learn AutoCad if you're really serious. Ninety nine percent of my customers use the software that comes with the Eclipse. For those that have special needs, Eclipse will design the mat for them for a reasonable $25.00 for most designs. If it is clip art and you're willing to have them put it in the general library, they often will do it for free. I myself have tinkered with CAD and if it is a really simple design I've been able to draw it and it will cut. More complex designs are another matter. A DXF file, if straight cuts, done in Corel or Illustrator will sometimes cut fine with an Eclipse or Wizard. If you have curves, that's another matter because a regular DXF file sees curves as a series of little tiny segments that the machine will attempt to cut but it will not do a good job. In CAD these little segments become a continuous arch and will cut clean as a wistle. Keep in mind that all CMC's have some cutting limits and the size that you may need a corporate logo or a detailed clip art may not be attainable due to the limits of the blade width, point and machine action. Never-the-less, customers who have dedicated some serious time to CAD have been able to cut some truely incredible mats.

John
 
I OWE WIZARD AN APOLOGIE, THE TITLE FOR THIS THREAD SHOULD HAVE READ " TRADE ACROSS" NOT "TRADE UP"

John
 
My two cents.......

I've been on the Wizard Jr. Program since August of 2001. I additionally purchased the VCADD software, because one of the things I really want to do is Logos and specific designs.

Now, I am far from computer illiterate, in fact I just received my A+ certification for windows and hardware, and run a Novell 5.1 network at my other job.

I've had difficulty with the VCADD manual which I down loaded from Wizard, the instructions that come with the Wizard are pretty bad for VCADD. The downloaded manual is better still hard. I've not had all the time I would like to work with it, plus experimenting takes CORNERS. When you only get 1000 with out buying extra that's hefty.
So as Mike said in an earlier post I use Corel and work with my images then transfer them to VCADD and finish them. Still haven't actually cut my first major design because I need to talk to the help desk first. Now I would if Wizard would give me about 500 extra corners now to try it (HOW BOUT IT ED)? Then I could report to y'all on the results. VCADD says it's ready to cut.

As far as the normal software, it's a breeze, for me, it takes me no time to set up what I'd like. To this end I have not charged a design fee unless it's for a wholesale customer. I let Lifesaver figure cost based on multi-openings and use the database for specialty mats. If I'm cutting clipart I charge by the corner usage.

I am using version 4.7 and I like it alot, There is still things that need to be added and changed, but that's for another marathon typing spree.

My fingers hurt......


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Jerry Vandergriff, CPF cm
McCue and Blanford Frame Shop Supply
Crestwood, KY
 
I have used both machines and if I were going to open a shop of my own I would choose the Fletcher. Among my reasons are that the Fletcher can cut 8ply, which I sell daily, and that I, personally, find the clamping system and better visibility easier to work with. Does that make the Fletcher a better machine? Not necessarily, it's just that I prefer those features.
 
Please don't misunderstand me, The Wizard is a damn good machine that has served me VERY well. It is a dependable workhorse that cuts a great custom mat. The reasons I want to change are for some extra capabilities that are mostly addressed above and the fact that I would be adding an asset to my business.

I will probably be wanting to retire in about ten years and having that will help the saleability of my business. Also I like to own my own stuff. I don't even take artwork on consignment, I purchase it outright from the artists.

John
 
We have a Wizard. It's ok. It makes life in the shop easier. I don't know anything about the CAD program. I just wish it would cut 8-ply matboard. Why won't it? Tech support once said it's because the motor isn't strong enough. Can't it be upgraded? Sure would be nice. How about it Edd?
 
Wizard can cut an 8-ply mat, even though Wizard tech service sez it won't

On the HHer's forum I posted something about this and Margaret Test CPF responded to me how to do it.

First, remove one of the backing sheets on your Wizrd. That allows the 8-ply to fit into the "slots"

then crank the blade all the way out, as shown in the instruction manual. Check blade depth wiht a scrap piece of 8-ply and you're ready to rock and roll.

Now thebad news. It doesn't cut it completely without changing the blade configs, which I refuse to do. Margaret also suggested to precut the outside, since Wiz doesn't like to "cut theoutside" on an 8-ply.

Still, it cuts 8-plyand you gotta "razor" the corners a bit.

But, like some of you, I love selling 8-ply, esp. that Crescent graywith the black core for black and white photos.

I'd suggest gangingup all your work on 8-ply and cutting them at the same time. That way, you onlyset the blade depth once and do a bunch of them.

Hope this helps you 8-ply users

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Michael LeCompte CPF
The Great Frame Up
 
Thanks Michael. I'll have to try that 8-ply trick. Does Wizard know this? Seems like they could promote it more.

Please reassure me that it doesn't do permanent and irreparable damage to the Wiz!

Are the corners real good after you've razored them?
 
Perhaps that old hand cutting trick would work. Set the blade for a regular cut, make the cut, then without moving or touching the board, make a slightly deeper cut. Keep doing that until your all the way through. That way, you can keep track of the number of turns you make on the depth screw, so you can return to your original setting without going nuts. Maybe I'll try that when I get to work.

John
 
All I can tell you is Margaret Test said this is how she cuts them. I tried it and it worked.
If anyone has her e-mail address, contacther as I understand she'sbeen doing it for awhile now.

Maybe the Wizard folks who are reading this thread can pipe in. Any recommendations?

Yeah, the coorners looked OK--as well as I can cut them by hand on my Fletcher manual cutter.

------------------
Michael LeCompte CPF
The Great Frame Up
 
About cadd feature It is a level of practice. Just as just because you have a C&H mat cutter does not guarantee you can cut a v-groove mat or an inlay. These are things you have to practice Cadd is something one you have to want to do you have to want to be different than the other frame shop that does not want to take the time learn the tool they have. learn it us it you will be rewarded if you show it. i just took in two $400.00+ jobs because the framer down the road could not cut a multi opening with stars Mon the mat.
jim :cool:
 
Sorry I didn’t post a response sooner, like many of you I was in Las Vegas (certainly one of the most exciting and successful shows I have attended, in any industry).

First, thank you John for the back-up, it’s nice to know I am not the only one who recognizes the inherent difficulties associated with CADD.

Jerry, I wish you good fortune with your CADD experiment; let’s talk off-line about the corner issue. I’ve been known to invest in research before.

Okay, now for the 8-ply debacle.

Does Wizard International (as a Company) advertise that the equipment will cut 8-ply? BIG NO!. The machine was not designed to cut it, and the stress placed on the drive system is significant enough to concern us. Have we seen our systems cut 8-ply? BIG YES! However, we have specifically told our Help Desk personnel not to teach this. I liken this to someone who removes the governor from a car engine and makes it go faster. The manufacturer doesn’t advertise the new top speed nor do they teach you how to achieve it. There are always a few individuals who “think outside the box” and come up with a way to make equipment out perform the manufactures specifications. For those of you who are doing it, good for you I am happy you’ve found a solution for your machine. Please remember however, that all of our machines are not the same, some of the older models may not accept the strain.

Please believe me when I say that 8-ply is such a frequent topic here at Wizard, I have dreams about it (nightmares?). Also, please believe me when I say we don’t have cotton in our ears, nor blinders over our eyes. As our Seattle icon Frazier would say, “I’m listening”.

Edd Pratt
Sales & Marketing Manager
Wizard International
 
Thanks for answering Edd. Our Wizard is about six years old. I have a feeling that would be considered an older model. I'd be afraid to strain its innards.

Please let us Grumblers be the first to know if and when you solve the 8-ply dilemma.
icon21.gif
 
Back to the CAD thing....

I've decided that I will cut my first image from VCADD and after an email from Edd, to do it honestly and openly, which I would anyway, but it was nice to be asked to from a Sales person.

I went as far last night as to take the image I created into the cutting screen and look at the number of corners it would take to cut. I about S*** (sorry) when it said 837! So I am going to go back and probably just cut the outside part, which will still show the image I was trying to convey. After I cut it or not, whatever the case may be, I'll let you know what I did and how I did it.

Jerry AKA
 
A few issues in a very good thread:

I agree that CAD in itself is not designed to be the most user-friendly of programs, but I do think that we (the industry) are going to receive the second major benefit of CMCs when we learn to use it. It's sad that Wizard's research shows that 95% of us simply give up for whatever reason. I have to admit to being part of that and resolve to teach myself the system.

I must apologize, Edd, for not getting over to the Wizard booth at the LV show and hanging out. It was certainly my intent and I ran out of time with my one abridged day of attendance. I wanted to talk about the successes we've had with the bold Jr. Rental program and the CAD issues, as well.

Getting the Wizard into our shop has been the real boon of efficiency and capability that I hoped it would be. The rental program has its advantages and disadvantages. The real advantage is that Wizard fixes things, and by having so many units out there, the company knows what needs work and what really is working. The disadvantage is that custom designs with lots of corners could really add up in costs, and that one never adds to their asset base by renting.

The corners thing is just an issue which someone needs to dynamically fit their business; if you need more corners, go to the full rental program. If you find yourself buying more corners yet, it's time to own a machine. (And if you're not charging for corners anyway, you're letting dollars out the door which are rightfully yours)

This will become more of an issue only when people become more familiar with CAD capabilities and begin to use them more extensively. Remember the above design which had 837 corners. Regardless of what I said, it's tough to charge someone $84 for an opening. I suspect that we're going to have to follow the lead of the vendors in this issue; charge a flat (or hourly) fee for the design and become proficient enough so that it doesn't take a week to design something.

The thing which strikes me about CAD is it really seems to me to be a matter of drawing arcs and lines, then telling the computer that you want to hook them together. Having watched a DeltaCad demo and not having followed up on the Wizard's VCad, I can't see whether it's as simple as it seems. I'll try to follow up on this.

With all this training going on at trade shows, software managers, would it be possible to distill some CAD training into a 3-hourish seminar at a trade show? The people who do the training are critical; they need to understand the core of the software and the ultimate product of a cut mat. Probably not that many of you out there.

Sideline issue of not having time to talk with key vendors: Being at shows is very expensive and certainly tough to justify for all the vendors. On the other hand, we framers pack in all the classes we can and have been conditioned to think that we're not getting all the benefit of the experience unless we're getting to a class.

The last day of a show is just a bad time to try to visit with people, especially with shortened hours of 10-2; yet this is all the "pure floor" time we're given. I was talking with some folks who were trying to pack up the booth, give me a little time and were clearly (and justifiably) worried about making a 5:00 flight departure time.

I guess, as a business owner, I need to go into a show with a more tightly outlined structure. Perhaps missing a class is the cost of talking to a key vendor and I was unprepared this time by not already making those decisions. On the other hand and knowing it's already an expense, what would be the potential benefit to everyone if vendors "left behind" a certain number of representatives who were flying out the next day? Besides the benefit of being able to line up consultations even into the evening, there'd be someone there to handle the logistics nightmares which inevitably result in the late rush of getting everything out the door. (The Myers-Briggs folks tell me that sales types thrive on this stuff, but that's another issue and somebody still has to clean up the mess). I can tell you that I was personally ready to commit to a couple of things which I ran out of time on, and now I'll wait until the next opportunity for face-to-face talks.

Now. Back to the CMC. I know that Wizard is very sensitive to the idea that having another machine is "trading up", and I agree that, for most businesses, the Wizard definitely will meet their needs perhaps in perpetuity. Having said that, however, I do believe that Wizard has positioned themselves as THE entry-level system, which implies, due in no small part to Wizard's own success, that there is such a thing as moving up. Edd's job is to work and overcome those issues so that the Wizard won't ultimately be left behind by businesses "moving up".

The Wizard does have limitations which can be worked through, such as the 8-ply issue or the distance to the edge, that other machines don't. It is noisy and wheezy, whle the other machines seem "stouter" by their smooth, silent operation. Only in certain cases, however, are these really breadnbutter issues, which means that the Wizard, unless your economics or particular business positioning points to something else, is really the system of choice for most of us who need to get something into the shop right away. As framer said a long time ago, whatever machine you choose, get one now! And you'll never be sorry that you did. Having crossed that line ourselves this past year, I'm really glad that we took that advice.

and also sorry that this was another long post.... forgive!
 
Po'framer, sometimes a truly great post has to be a long one. Thank you for your input.

John
 
I read this on the HH and thought some of you who were debateing the 8ply question might like to read it especially if you aren't a PPFA/HH .
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF (CM)


Reply-to: hitchhikers@ppfa.com (PPFA's Online Exchange)
To: hitchhikers@ppfa.com (PPFA's Online Exchange)

Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:38:44 -0800
From: "Ruth Yheulon" <framingcorner@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 8 ply mats

We use the Fletcher 2100 and with the 8 ply mats I use .015 blades. I take
several passes thru the mat and get a very clean cut. I will change my blade
with each turn of the board which may be a little excessive but those boards
are more expensive and I would rather pitch a blade than a board. I always
wipe clean the blade (any) before use because of the packaging oil that they
have on them.
Ruth
Framing Corner
Southeast Michigan
 
OK, I did it. I sent off my one third payment to Fletcher on Friday.

The input & feedback I got from The Grumble helped a lot in my decision, Thanks to all of you.

The machine I purchased is a factory re-built. My cost was $15,750.00. Fletcher asssured me that the machine is 100% as good as brand new. They told me that the only thing wrong is a few minor cosmetic problems from use in the shop that had it. The waranty they gave me is one year on mechanical parts & labor, six months on electrical. They told me all the drive belts had been replaced.

When I get the machine, I will give you guys my assesment of it.

Any one who is interested in taking over my lease on my Wizard let me know within the next week, before I ship it back to them.

The cost is $200.00 per month, and they want a $250.00 or $385.00 transfer fee, I was quoted both numbers by two different people. Also I purchased the computer new from them about three months ago, my cost was $700.00, you can buy that from me or use your own computer. Wizard will help you get started and maintain the machine for you.

You can also purchase the machine outright through me for $11,000.00. That includes a brand new computer, with a 17" moniter.

All deals are FOB, San Diego.

John

One other thing I forgot to add. The Wizard is loaded with over 100,000 corners, bought and payed for, if your thinking about taking over the lease. If your thinking of purchasing it, that would not matter, corners would be free.
 
I am very happy with our Wizard. It's like having a part time employee that does not need a break or take time off. The Wizard really has increased the capicity of our shop to be able to produce more framing. We have successfully used and marketed the CAD feature. I think Cad is like any other software, You have to use it often to get good with it and develop speed. The one thing that has made me consider changing machines is that the Wizard is not designed to cut 8 ply. I looked at the Fletcher and the Eclipse Pro as well as the Gunnar in Las Vegas. The Gunnar is more machine than I need for my shop. The Eclipse Pro looked pretty good though.
 
Well, it's been over ten days since I started trying to get rid of my Wizard. I've posted it on The Grumble, called many frame shops in San Diego & Los Angeles.

I have not had one person, even remotly interested in taking over my Wizard lease or purchasing it. It appears that The Wizard has little or no resale value at all. It could just be the wrong timing, I know things are slow right now for a lot of shops. I hope it won't be the same with my Fletcher if I ever decide to sell it.

My Fletcher will be ariving on the fouteenth of March, so I've still got a little time left. I will let you know if I have a taker or I have to ship it back to them.

John
 
Originally posted by JRB:
Well, it's been over ten days since I started trying to get rid of my Wizard. I've posted it on The Grumble, called many frame shops in San Diego & Los Angeles.

I have not had one person, even remotly interested in taking over my Wizard lease or purchasing it. It appears that The Wizard has little or no resale value at all.
John
I think there is a lot of room between $ 11,000 and NO resale value. As for taking over the lease, is there any advantage to doing this over getting it directly from Wizard? Perhaps all your prospective customers are victims of Wizard's Integrated Framer program :(

That being said, we advertised a Zund for several months before finding two interested parties in the course of two weeks, one of which bought it.
 
Sefuller, thank's for your response. The lease is paid in full on my Wizard, the only thing you have to pay is the minimum corner charge of $200.00 per month. The lease is $150.00 per month additional for a period of two years if you start with a new one from Wizard. You also will be required to pay your states sales tax on the $150.00 per month. Your set up fee for a new one is $500.00, on mine you have to pay the transfer fee of $385.00. A new one has to be tweeked in by you, mine is already done. A new one comes with one thousand corners, if you purchase my computer ( it's brand new ) you get over one hundred thousand corners with it, aproxmatly five thousand dollars worth.

A brand new one purchased from Wizard will cost you $15,000.00, mine will cost $11,000.00 and you will still get a brand new computer with a 17 inch moniter directly from Wizard.

John
 
We've had a Wizard now for a little over a year, and I would never trade it for anything! I tell my boss that if he ever decides to get rid of it, I'm going with it!

We just recently bought the CADD program, and using the wizard manual I learned how to use it in one afternoon, and have already been designing mats for customers with it. Now we just need to come up with a way to price the special cuts.
smiley.gif

Keep Framing!,
DPattullo
 
Originally posted by DPattullo:
Now we just need to come up with a way to price the special cuts.DPattullo
Go look at the post "One up for Wizard" Pricing help is on the way!

Betty
 
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