Any one using LED lighting?

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FrameMakers

FrameMakers

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 20, 2001
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Powell, OH
I just preformed one of my least favorite tasks. Changing the ballast in a florescent fixture. I swear that I have changed more ballasts then I have bulbs. These buggers are expensive at $33 a pop. I could get new florescent troffer fixtures for $40 but more of a PIA to change.

I know that LED lighting will be the next big thing. It is reported to use 1/2 the energy of florescents have a more controllable color, no UV and last much much longer. Of course the trade off is they are more expensive.
I have 30 troffers in my shop, so we are not talking about a small investment.

Is anyone using LED?
Do they actually save money?
Have you thought about changing?
 
I don't think LED has matured enough yet to replace FL tube fixtures.

They have pretty much perfected replacing the 60-100w screw in incandescent or CFL bulbs with LED, but not much else.

This is a rapidly growing technology right now, and I suspect it will replace both of the old technologies soon.

We have had four LED floods going at home, nonstop for about 2+ years, and they happily chug along. (4 watts each, mood lighting a fireplace and inside an entertainment center as back lighting) They're not bright enough for much else, but these are old. The newest ones are much brighter.

Mike
 
There will be a WORKING selection of LED lighting at the Lighting Lab at WCAF

P398 Lighting Solutions for Frame Shops and Galleries
Sunday, January 23, 2011 : 10am - Noon • Rob Markoff, CPF

How you light your design area and gallery can make or break a sale. Proper lighting in your work area can also ease fatigue and make your staff more productive. This class will examine various types of light sources (incandescent, fluorescent, halogen, LED) and the best uses for each.

You will see the quality of output from these different bulbs and their color rendering properties. Learn about new energy efficient technology and see how retrofitting existing fixtures can save you money. Discover how simple changes in your lighting will make your store look great!
 
Rob, I would love to attend, but I won't be getting into Vegas till late Sunday night.
 
Yep, they have the troffers, but no prices.:(
 
Dave
I had to add a couple new trouffers.
They are hands won much better than the 34 year old ones I have Now.
Lower watts and only one ballast per unit.......
I will be replacing the whole fixture as the ballasts go bad in the old ones.
If things ever slow down maybe next year I am going to put an ad in the local rag to sell the old ones hopefully someone will but all 26 of them. I will even let them remove them....if they want.
If I can get 25-30% of a new one out of them I t would be worth to change over.
 
GUMBY said:
If I can get 25-30% of a new one out of them I t would be worth to change over.
Click to expand...

If these are 34 year old T-12s with magnetic ballasts it would be worth it to just throw them away.

Also, check with your state's energy efficiency department. Many states will pay a bounty for each old fixture replaced with a new, efficient one.
 
That's what we did in 2002. The electric company program replaced all of ours for free. (the whole strip mall). They also replaced outdoor lighting, replaced exit signs, and switched our track lighting from the power sucking incandescent to warm CFL floods. The CFL floods do die after a few years, but not nearly as often as the ones they replaced. The electrical savings more than pay for the difference in price, and there's a huge difference in the heat load. Before the conversion, our a/c unit couldn't keep up with the heat generated by the floods. It would get up to 80 in the gallery some days. Now it maintains with little effort.

The new troffers are brighter, use considerably less power, use 3 bulbs instead of 4, and one transformer instead of 2. We only use troffers in the back room, but we haven't had a SINGLE bulb or transformer fail since the install in 2002. The new ones seem to be pretty hardy!

I think we had to pay 20% of the labor for the crew that came in, but everything else was covered. It only took them a couple hours for each tenant.

If the fixtures are that old, the transformers probably contain PCBs, which have long since been banned. Our fixtures did, and they took them away as hazardous waste.

Mike
 
my lighting stinks horribly in my back room... they are all the lights you guys say are bad.

guess i coudl call a contractor and see whta they would suggest. would probably be worth it. mine lights are from the 80s and they are almost 8 foot long florectent bulbs.
 
When I replaced my flourescents with some ceiling track lights the wire in the cieling space was hideous old black brittle rubber coated wire. Had to replace the wiring as well :) Never know what you'll find when you start doing repairs....

There were some leds I saw a year back that would fit right into the flourescent housings. You didn't even have to take the ballasts out, just replace the flourescents with the leds.They weren't cheap, $149 each, but doing a lot like some of you have to do it might be a good intermediate step... They might be these... but their instructions say to remove or bypass the ballast, which, really, makes sense. And if your ballasts are over $100 to replace anyways you might as well go for these and get rid of the hassle...
 
OK, I give up - what is a "troffer"? I have never heard this term.

I bought two LED flood lights for my house. These were over fifty bucks each and the light they give off is faint and cold. But it had saved me going up and down a ladder three or four times a year and a lot of money on my hydro bill - so when the LEDs get cheaper and brighter I will buy more.
 
A troffer is the 2x4 light panels that fit into a grid drop ceiling.

Bob, my fixtures use 4 bulbs each so it would still be $600 per fixture and $18,000 for the entire shop. I think I will be waiting on making the change till the price drops. I am sure it will.
 
Thanks, Dave.

I have troffers in my shop.

I did not know that!

(Maybe because the bulbs are nestled into trough-shaped metal thingies?)
 
The LED lights I bought for a trial state on the package that they are UV filtered and put out "no" UV.

Conservation bulbs?
 
Puppiesonacid said:
my lighting stinks horribly in my back room... mine lights are from the 80s and they are almost 8 foot long florectent bulbs.
Click to expand...

When was the last time you replaced the lamps? You know their light output diminishes over time, right? After about 20,000 hours of burning time, their light output has diminished to the point that replacement is recommended. However, they will continue to glow for years after they become exhausted. Fluorescent lamps do not "burn out" like incandescent lamps do.

If your space has lighting designed and installed by professionals, then it probably would produce illumination adequate for any typical commercial activities. Increasing the light to an acceptable level in your shop may be as easy as changing the lamps.
 
O... Its not that they don't put out enough light... Its bright as day back there. Its just not the good kind of light... florecent lights give my wife headaches cause they have a slow refresh rate.

I don't know if there is a better kind of lighting for a very dark room other wise... no sunlight gets to it... course i know nothing of lighting. just what is here..

I will be waiting till the cost of LEDs go down as well. not sure if they are birght enough for my shop yet. I see some at Starbucks and its a very dim light around where they have them, and they have a lot on a track lighting system. bright in one spot but dim around it... to many shadows.
 
I picked up a string of 100 warm commercial grade xmas leds that put out a good deal of light. The tree I had to restring I could only use a 1/3 of the lights that were originally on it.
 
Puppiesonacid said:
O... Its not that they don't put out enough light... Its bright as day back there. Its just not the good kind of light... florecent lights give my wife headaches cause they have a slow refresh rate.
Click to expand...

get with a lighting person. Even replacing the old style FL (60cycles) with the thinner electronic tubes will make a HUGE difference. (especially when the hum goes away..... :thumbsup:)

We are probably about 5-7 years away from warm economical LED lighting.

Yesterday I saw a display with two floods pointed at the 18' ceiling. You could turn on both lights, or one at a time... but you couldn't see the bulbs. You had to guess as to which was the incandescent and which was the LED.
To me, with them both on, they looked the same. One at a time, one gave off more ambient light.... so I guessed it was the incandescent..... :help: I've been wrong before, and probably will be wrong more and more..... two of those $45 floods are probably going to be in my stocking this year, headed for the stairwell.
 
ARGHHHHH Just came into work to see another fixture out. This one I have changed since in the last 3 years. :(
 
OK, this brings to mind a question I have.

I want to take out my "troffers", put in a ceiling tile and hang a track system. Can I screw the track right to the flimsy drop in panel or do I have to drop a suspension cable from the real, and probably equally flimsy, drywall ceiling?

I have a room with an 8 foot suspended ceiling. Above that it a really nice 10 1/2 foot ceiling, but between the drop ceiling and the original ceiling is the buildings retrofitted pipes and electrical wires. So the drop ceiling stays :) but how can I replace the ugly flourescent tubes with a better track system?

Dave the tracks will be in the long run cheaper than replacing the ballasts and bulbs as they have failed as well in my space. I am gonna take this opportunity to replace what I don't like instead of fixing the ugliness I want gone :)
 
Bob, I have had shops with 100% track lighting in the gallery area. You electric bill will go through the roof. The shop will have an extremely warm apperance. It did save on our natural gas bill as we didn't turn the heat on during the winter.

I personally would keep the troffers and ad some perimeter tracks.
 
I want to go to LEDs not halogens :) I'm not sure if a lighting system designed for flourescents would have the oomph to take halogens. I fear it might blow the circuit or melt the wiring :)
 
I never heard of troffer either, so looked it up on Webster's -->

trof·fer noun \ˈträ-fər, ˈtrȯ-\

Definition of TROFFER

: an inverted trough serving as a support and reflector usually for a fluorescent lighting unit

Origin of TROFFER

blend of trough and coffer
First Known Use: 1942
 
Daily Deal: MR16 LED bulbs $3.99 each shipped

I seriously doubt how bright these are with only ONE WATT of power consumption, but I saw this as a daily deal today:
80221_es.jpg

artclick.html

21-LED 1W MR16 White Light Bulb for $4 + free shipping

EverydaySource.com offers this 21-LED 1.05-watt MR16 Warm White Light Bulb for $6.99. Apply coupon code "EFWS070533" to cut the price to $3.99. With free shipping, that is the lowest total price we could find by $19. Intended to replace halogen lights, this bulb will work in all fixtures which accept 12-volt halogen bulbs. Coupon expires after 1,000 uses.
MR16 White Light Bulb, 21 LED 1.05W

List price $19.99


  • Replaces your current 12 volt halogen lights to save 95% of energy
  • Safe, efficient and saves energy
  • Eliminates color shifting
  • LEDs do not get hot over time
  • Illuminated by electrons movement in a semiconductor material
  • Low heat and lower power consumption
  • MR16 super bright 21 LED spot light
  • Average life; ~50,000 hours (40 times longer then standard incandescent. Under normal usage you should get over 8 years life cycle
  • Wattage: 1.05W
  • Candelas: 10000 - 12000 MCD
  • Lumens: 25LM
  • Color: White
  • Best energy saving and environmental friendly replacement for all MR16 low voltage (12V) halogen bulbs
  • Fully compatible with all major brand lighting that uses MR16 halogen bulbs
Click to expand...
For what it's worth, if anyone is feeling adventurous to try one! :)
Mike
 
I don't want to give the whole lighting class here on the G - but here is a preview.

NOTE: Thanks, Mike for posting this- and my comments are not a criticism on the offer, lamps, or directed at Mike for posting this - just an analysis of info for comparison.

In the last example that Mike posted - there is a chart of specifications that is very useful.

An average MR16 lamp is a 50 watt EXN. The "brightness" of a lamp is expressed in lumens. The more lumens per watt, the more efficient the lamp.

Most lamp manufacturers do not publish lumen output ratings for MR16 lamps or other reflectorized lamps in their catalogs. Instead, they publish beam angle and CBCP, which provide more accurate information about the performance characteristics of the lamp. NLPIP tested several 50-watt MR16 samples of the same type (EXN) to determine their lumen output, which ranged between 560 lumens to 710 lumens, and averaged 625 lumens.

So an average 50 watt MR16 puts out 625 lumens or 12.5 lumens per watt.

The 1.05 watt LED replacements in Mike's post have an output of 25 lumens or 23.81 lumens per watt. Much more efficient but quite a bit dimmer and in my estimate, not bright enough to be practical by themselves.

One would have to run 25 LED replacements to get the same "brightness" - but the wattage used would only be 26.26 watts, or about half the number used for one MR16 lamp being replaced.

Beam angle and center beam candlepower (CBCP) are performance parameters that characterize the beam appearance and the maximum beam intensity of a directional lamp. According to manufacturers' catalogs, the beam angles of MR16 lamps range from 7 to 60 degrees, and their CBCP may range from about 500 up to 15,000 candelas, depending on different wattage and beam angle combinations.

Mike's example shows CBCP at 10,000 to 12,000 MCD so they are a pretty bright spot. Comparing them to an EXN MR16 might not be very fair since an EXN is a much wider beam spread. The only way to truly tell if they will work is to try them out. And for the price it is hard to resist. I may have to pick some up to demo for the class.

Other things to consider are actual color temperature (not just "white"). If someone says "white" matboard to you, you know what I mean.

That is why the lighting lab at the WCAF will be so useful. We will have color charts colored fabrics and art examples lit by Halogen, CFL, and LED lamps so you can see the difference in output.
 
Here's another example for discussion, with specs. It's still pretty weak in the lumens department, IMO. Your class should be an interesting one!

http://www.eaglelight.com/product/M...tm_content=&utm_campaign=MR16-GU53-6W3-60-DIM

Dimmable LED MR16- 35/40 Watt Replacement 60 Deg. Beam Angle


Fully Dimmable! This new 6 watt LED Bulb is a direct replacement for a 35/40W MR 16 halogen bulb. LED bulbs last much longer (50,000 hours) then halogen bulbs and burn much, much cooler. Advanced heat management system keeps the bulb cool to the touch after hours of use. This green friendly energy efficient light hardly leaves a carbon foot print on this earth.

Comparable to a 35/40 Watt light


  • Bulb Shape: MR16 (2 inches in diameter)
  • Base Type: GU53
  • Brightness: 123 lumens
  • Energy Consumption: 6 watts
  • Comparable to a: 35watt halogen bulb
  • Voltage:12V AC/DC
  • Color: Warm White, Natural White, Cool White
  • Color Temp:
  • 3800k Warm White 113 lumens
  • 5800k Natural White 99.124 lumens
  • 8500k Cool White 123 lumens
  • Beam Angle: 60 degrees
  • CRI: Warm White:77 Natural White:77 Cool White:76
  • Working Temp: -20C to 45C (-4F to 122F)
  • Avg. Life: 50,000 hours
  • Lens types: clear
  • Diameter: 1.93in (49mm)
  • Length: 2.28in (58mm)
  • Weight: 4 Ounces
mr16_gu53_9w3_dim_eaglelight_leds.jpg
 
Update-

The offer Mike posted is only good for ONE lamp at $3.99 - Tried to order more, but the coupon would only work for one discount per order. I am sure if you did it multiple times, it may work more than once, but there is also a 1,000 coupon limit then the offer is over.

I did order one (it was $3.00 plus tax with free shipping) - so if you come to the lighting lab at the WCAF you can see it in action.

Thanks Mike for the source.
 
Dave, it sounds like you have an electrical problem. It could be several things. You could have low voltage or even high voltage (does your strip have a delta high leg?). You could have an unbalanced neutral or poor ground.

It seems odd to focus on the color and brightness of LED lights but ignoring that you could possibly start burning out LED transformers/drivers just as you are ballasts. I wished I were closer so I could come take a look.
 
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