Any one else having problems with IVY INDUSTRIES ?

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JRB

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
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Aug 12, 2000
Posts
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Loc
San Diego, CA
I just got put through all kinds of hassle trying to place an order with IVY INDUSTRIES. They have a great line of cherry mouldings and we have been selling a fair amount of them.

I just called in an order for two different mouldings that needed to be cut for shipping. With every company I have delt with over the years, all I had to do was give them the moulding number, the footage I needed and if it needed to be cut for shipping purposes, the size of the frame I had to get from it.

Ivy industries insists that I figure out how it has to be cut, even though I have no clue as to the lengths of the moulding they will be starting with.

The lady I was talking to insisted that I had to figure it out. I asked to talk to the owner or manager, she said she was a manager. I asked to talk to an owner and she said, I swear this is exactly what she said, " The owners are not in the building, but if they are, they are in a meeting." I asked her to suggest to them that I would slam them on The Grumble about this issue if they didn't wish to talk to me about it . She put me on hold, came back and said they were on the phone, and would I like to place my order or not? I placed the order as I had originaly done it, moulding number, length of moulding to do the project, size of the frame I needed for cutting purposes, I told her it was a length order, not a chop order. She replied with, " are you giving me a chop order?" I made it very clear to her it was a length order, not a chop order, and to please fill the order and ship it. I thanked her for taking my order and she did a slam job with the telephone. She had also insisted that I am the only framer that did not want to figure out how to cut random length mouldings for shipping purposes.

My question to my fellow Grumblers is, is that true?

I guess I'll just pull the samples and be done with it.

John
 
You know John, I am new to ordering length from out of state. I didn't have a clue how to figure this out either. The people at Roma are the ones who told me to say it was length and then give them the cutting dimensions so they can figure it out. They said it was standard to do it this way since we don't know how big the stick is. I tried this with Studio and they acted like I was asking for something unusual. But with them it depends on who I get when I call.

I'd pull the samples. I hope whoever has put this person in charge of their company is aware of how she is treating their customers.

While we are on the subject is there any reason why it isn't advisable to just say to cut them in half? Like I said I am used to getting my length locally and haven't been faced with this problem til recently.

Good luck with your problem.

[ 03-19-2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: emibub ]
 
I will place Ivy Industries on my "not to order from" list. It is a short list but it only takes one response like you received to place a name at the top. Thanks for the heads-up.

Jack Cee
 
While I certainly wouldn't like the sort of service you received during that call I feel duty bound to chime in on these sorts of threads. I spent a couple of years taking orders for a moulding distributor. We had a policy of only accepting cutting instructions from the client and if any of us were caught figuring it from a frame size there's be a "talking to" from our supervisor. The instructions could not be "Cut 5' & 3'" very few of the mouldings were in even 8' sticks. Instructions had to be along the lines of "Cut 6' + Balance to ship"

If I had figured the cutting instructions and the customer approached it differently and couldn't make his frame there had to be a replacement, and we woudn't credit without the first mdse being returned, which was another unpopular policy, and on and on.

In my retail life I have only ever ordered chops for Ivy so I don't know if this is a new policy for them. Policy is not an excuse to be impolite to customers. There is never an excuse for that.

I did have to chuckle at "They're not in the building and if they are they're in a meeting"

p.s. If I ran a moulding company and found it necessary to institute such a policy I would mail a notice to everyone with an active account with my company.

[ 03-19-2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Meghan M ]
 
I think you got treated a little shabby John. I can understand their policy in that it takes extra time to cut the moulding to specified lengths and if they screw up it comes out of their pocket instead of yours, similar to a chop. But that is no excuse for outright rudeness. Just tell us you have to charge extra for it! End of problem.
Years ago when I had a retail shop I used to order chops from Ivy regularly and had no problems. A few years ago I tried (as a new customer, I hadn't ordered for about 6-7 years) to order about $35 of moulding from them. The COD came in for $150. Seems there was a $75 "new customer" setup fee which they failed to mention. I refused the order, threw out their samples and haven't had anything to do with them since. I know they went under new management since then but I guess it's not any better.
If you want to continue using them I guess you'll have to order chop. Just order a little oversized and cut down to what you need. You'll have to raise your prices on their moulding to compensate for that I'm sure.
 
We have to work to get and keep our customers. We do this by providing SERVICE.

Ivy Industries, and aparantly the company that Megan used to be employed with believe that the customers should do the work, not them. Cutting a moulding from a known length would not be a big deal, we could figure our frame and minimize the waste we would have.

Cutting from an unknown length such as the random lengths Ivy Industries offer is a whole new ball park. It would be very easy to end up not being able to get your frame at all and having to re-order more product. Perhaps this is the reason Ivy Industries want's the customer to figure it, they stand a chance of selling even more product. I guess their owners are a couple of pretty shrewd dudes. ( Dudes is a California term that means gentleman ) I wonder why we, in retail, can't get away with that type of shenanigans. Is it because we fear our customers may not come back?

John
 
I know exactly what I need and how it needs to be cut before I call any vendor. Occasionally, if I need help on the fly, as I am placing the order, they can punch in the size and tell me how much moulding I need, but I would not expect them to figure out how to cut it for me. All of the vendors (and there are a lot) make it clear that moulding comes in random lengths between 8ft and 10ft. I can understand not wanting to take the time to figure out how to cut a framers length order when there is not much profit selling single sticks to start and phone time is valuable. Many companies avoid this by selling only multiple sticks under a certain price.

I am thankful that many companies are willing to sell us single sticks, so I try to be considerate. If we want to order chop then, order chop. If we want length, then figure out how you need it cut based on the fact that lengths are probably random before you call. If I need full sticks greater than 8ft, then I feel it is appropriate to ask them to check how long the sticks are. Sometimes I will ask anyway, but I respect them when they tell me they can not tell me how long the sticks will be.

We all have good and bad days. I hope if I am having a bad day, you can find it in your heart to forgive me. I find that a few smaller east coast vendors can be short on the phone and I need to remind the management that their phone manners need to be improved, but I would never call to complain that they would not take the time to figure out how to cut my length if I was not willing to do that myself.
 
Sorry, Less, I can't agree with you at all on this one. The distributers make plenty of profit on single stick orders, otherwise they would not be doing it. If all I had to order on a given day was one or two sticks of moulding, I would not mind so much figuring it out for them. I order for the whole week on Wednesdays, It just takes two much time as it is. I don't need any more time consuming projects to busy myself with. I would rather be making frames.

I do not understand why the people on the wrong coast have an attitude problem, but some of them seem to. I guess it's the way they want to conduct business. I have already solved the problem. we pulled their samples and after our present orders are completed, that will be the end of it.

John
 
John,

A simple solution to a simple problem, as far as I'm concerned.

I have problems with one of the large moulding companies in that they manufacture many of their profiles in Europe. They come in 9'8" length sticks when converted from metric. Try to order length for 10' of moulding to build a frame from these guys. Unless you order chop, they will send 2 sticks of moulding of which you will have about 9 1/2' of moulding left over! I even tried to order one stick and a chopped rail and they wouldn't chop the rail for me. I feel that this is not the good business way to handle regular customers.

I own saws and take pride in chopping my own moulding. If I chose to order chops instead of length on these profiles I would defeat the purpose of owning the saws. And the difference in price between length and chop makes it difficult to properly price a frame when your POS program is set up on length figures. Add to that an average of $15.00 per order for shipping and your profit has a large chunk bitten out of it before you begin to underpin.

We are graced with once-a-month delivery in our area of the forest so ordering for truck delivery is out of the question for 75% of our orders.

Their UPS charges are 3 times that of their major competitor who ships from the same general area of the city where their warehouses are located. Nobody can explain that one to me.

Framerguy
 
I am surprised to hear that you had a problem with Ivy. Over the past sixteen years they have tried in every way possible to please me. All moulding variations were always replaced pleasantly. I suppose that business is a bit simpler because I order chop but usually Joice will help you through any issues. Everyone seems to be frazzled these days because of war, the economy, the weather (up to a week ago,) I hope that you can work it out.



Susan Gittlen CPF
Whispering Woods Gallery
Holland Pa
s.gittlen@att.net
 
I am surprized that my esteemed crosstown collegue hasn't come on here to tell you that you need to decide whether to work with chop or length. He must be busy. If he had the time, I think he'd say you can't have it both ways - you either buy chop cut to size, and pay the premium, or buy bundles (or boxes) of length and have it shipped by common carrier. (Unless you're lucky enough or demanding enough to live in an area serviced by vendor deliveries.)

Of course, I myself would never stir up the hornet's nest by presenting such a contentious point of view.
 
I have to agree with Ron;
You can't have your cake and eat it too!

When I order length moulding, I almost never order less than 1,000 ft assorted. The only exception is metal moulding from my local distributors. We order in 20' quanities and stock the overage depenting on how it is packaged.

The cost of 20' and chops breaks even at about 13'. We order chops in a frame is less than 13' and length if it is more.

The distributors have to make a profit to cover their costs of operation etc.; just as we have to.
What would be the cost of operating a small shop if we could only order directly "in factory quanities"? We need local distributors as much as they need us.

I think manufactures like Ivy are doing us a favor in cutting and shipping only 10' - 20'. For this favor, we have to do our homework and tell them what we really want.
 
We have dealt with this problem for a long time, and have since found a simple solution. Firstly, we deal mostly with Larson, the quality of the product is exceptional and they deliver. I realize we are fortunate to have them nearby and not everyone has the same luxury. But in order to stay "one step ahead" of the competition, we carry several lines from out of state. These lines all need to be shipped to us.
Now, I HATE to pay any additional charges on top of moulding (ie. shipping), but if ya gotta, ya gotta. We just take the footage required for an order from the work ticket, and order as needed. For instance, if a piece requires seven feet of moulding, we will order the stick cut to seven and balance. And if the order requires say twelve feet, then we will order a long stick (cut appropriately) and a chopped rail. All of our suppliers will do this for us. If they didn't they wouldn't be our suppliers. There are so many moulding manufacturers/suppliers out there it is easy to find one that will accomadate.
 
Back when I ordered length, I always figured out what I needed myself. If I needed a a minimum of eight feet, I figured out the shortest piece needed, say 18". When I placed my order, I would tell them I needed a minimum of eight feet, cut 3' plus balance. I never felt it was the responsiblity of the order-taker to do the math for me. Considering how many people I have come across who are mathematically-challenged, I'm surprised you would trust someone whose math skills you don't know to do your figuring for you.
I just put Ivy samples back on my wall two days ago. They are selling already. I stopped doing business with them a few years ago, not because of any problem with them, though. I like what they have, the simple styles are selling again, and the woods are solid, not veneers. Until I have a problem with them, they will stay.
For the record, I agree with Ron and Meghan.
 
Originally posted by JRB:
I do not understand why the people on the wrong coast have an attitude problem, but some of them seem to. John
Click to expand...
That company happened to have been in Sunny California. I did not make the policy. I didn't even particularly like the policy, but once it was explained to me how it evolved I stopped skirting it.

Originally posted by Frank Larson:
Seems there was a $75 "new customer" setup fee which they failed to mention. I refused the order, threw out their samples and haven't had anything to do with them since.
Click to expand...
That is absolutely apalling! Since historically many of us have had relatively good experiences with Ivy I am guessing the new, New Management has a focus other than the independent retail framer. I wonder how far we'd get trying to charge a "New Customer Setup Fee"?
 
Like Kathy said, Roma is the best we've seen when it comes to cutting length into UPSable length. In addition to what Kathy said about giving length order and also frame size.....

For random lengths, Roma also suggested detailed cutting instructions like,

If 8ft cut xx.5 ft and balance,
If 9 ft cut yy ft and balance,
If 10 ft cut zz ft and balance

When we know the frame can be cut using a single stick, it's always ordered "Cut in Half"
 
Hey, I'm flummoxed here. I didn't know the moulding companies were doing us any big favors by sending one stick. I am just following along with the info they have given me. Roma is the one who TOLD me to give cutting instructions so when they cut it they can determine how big to make the sticks. I assumed it was a service they offered in order to keep the package size down. Apparently from what I am reading it is a service they offer to help THEIR customers. That is why they are a class act. I certainly didn't mean to suggest they do MY math for me. I just thought it was the way things were. It isn't the phone people figuring out what size to cut since they don't know how big the sticks are either. The "sawyers" would be the ones calculating since they would have the sticks in hand.

I'll order it any way they want me to. But is seems to me from John's post they changed horses midstream and decided to do it differently. This is as much a customer service issue as anything. How can a business afford to mistreat their customers that way? I would kick them to the curb. (Excuse the lingo)

[ 03-20-2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: emibub ]
 
Thanks Ron, You said it well!

For further information on this, go to: Waste?

John (Your esteemed crosstown collegue)
I was busy!

[ 03-20-2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: John Ranes II, CPF, GCF ]
 
JRB, I do not trust suppliers with anything but specific cutting instructions such as what Rick just mentioned above, but I'd take the samples down, too, after a phone conversation like that.

I would never talk to my customers that way, and would never tolerate it from a vendor.

Does your Ivy rep call on you? I'd give him/her an earful, too.

I used to sell more Ivy than I do now, especially with companies like Picture Woods in biz. The folks at Ivy need to realize that us framing retailers have more choices than ever when it comes to moulding suppliers.
 
Does Roma actually sell custom frame shops moulding? I've been waiting for so long for a rep I thought it was a big joke. When we finally saw our rep and ordered corner samples, they never came. Is it just me, or do I smell a conspiracy?

PS. I think it's just me. Wait no, I smell it again.
 
will someone please explain to me how purchasing one stick and telling them to cut it to 7'+balance is the least bit cost effective??

I used to do this til UPS rates went through the roof a couple of years ago. A 7' package would be at least $12 dollars where I live..in fact that would also be the charge for a 5' package. Add to that the concept that length is going to have defects and no matter where they cut it it will almost always be in the most inopportune place. Oh, and everyone I used to order from in this way required that I tell them how to cut the length for shipping, including Larson, Williamson, Turner, ivy and Roma.

I now buy chop from any vendor that has to ship to me..which is nearly all of them. My prices are adjusted to compensate for this though it is not much of a trade off really. Someone else has cut the molding ( one less thing for me to do) if it is not perfect someone else has to fix it, and the shipping charges are about 1/3 what they might be with length. Works for me.

It does sound like John had a bad experience with the folks at Ivy. I can't think of one supplier I use with the exception of Bravura and Vermont Hardwoods where I have not at least had a moment of being annoyed or even totally p.o.d or felt underserved and over promised at one time or another. I would never pull samples over one arguement with one person any more than I would throw my husband out at the first sign of agravation. I would pull the samples ( and have) if the problems could not be resolved to my satisfaction.

I have used Ivy ever since we opened. Chops only. I have never had a problem with them that wasn't rectified immediately. The ladies on the phone have always been pleasant and helpful.We sell a lot of thier moldings and I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face if I pulled them off the wall.

But I digress..How do you justify ordering and shipping one stick of molding and how is it more profitable than chop? That was my question.

Sandie in Maine
Thawing at last
 
My prices reflect the additional costs incured by ordering in length. I prefer to do my own mitering and joining. My customers came to me to have the frame made, not some minimim wage expert in a wharehouse. I personaly never mentioned that I was trying to save money, all I want is to be able to order with as little hassle as possible.

John
 
But I digress..How do you justify ordering and shipping one stick of molding and how is it more profitable than chop? That was my question.
Click to expand...
Frame LJ 655CG 20"x24" = 9.3ft

lenght $4.97 x 10ft = $49.70 shipping

chop $8.79 x 9.3ft = $81.75

difference $32.05 minus let's say $7 = $25

Chop time aprox. 5 min

$25 x 12 = $300 per hr

Is my time worth $300 an hour?

And like John, no ones chops? as well as Me? or Less?

Make more than one frame, well, you do the math.
 
The one think that most have forgotten is that there is a scrap value (amount) anticipated in length moulding.
As a natural material (wood) there are defects that are not cut out by the manufactures. They are marked most of the time and you are given credit for 1/2' to 1" depenting on the manufacturer. They not only occure; but, they sometimes occure in the most inappropiate positions in a length.
 
I'm with Less. The end result for ordering length over chop is a lower bill payable to my supplier. The math she used was dead on. Up with profits!
 
The answer Less gives mathematically is valid for his 10ft selection. But suppose that with the ordered 10ft, he actually gets 18ft? It happens often-the nature of short bundle buying that John Ranes has explained many times.

Add the freight difference over UPS (on a chop order) and the equation becomes even more out of balance.

The point is every case could be different with no absolute right or wrong way.

Simply stated, use what works best for you from whomever services your needs the best. Thank goodness we have options
 
Since the question was put out there I thought I'd run numbers on what I received yesterday. I figure it is random enough.

LJ600G
I ordered 11 feet and got 20.
Length 20x5.93=118.60
Chop 11x10.4=110.44
So, I paid $8.00 more getting length but I also had 9 feet left over,which will make 2x8x10 @ $35.00ea, which only cost me $8.00.

Roma13797
I ordered 6 feet and got 10.
Length 10x6.26=62.60
Chop 6x9.68=58.08
I paid 4.00 more for length but I got an additional 4 feet which will make 1x8x10=$35.00

Roma 13797
I ordered 10 feet and got 12
Length 12x5.99=71.88
Chop 10x9.59=95.90
I paid $24.00 less for length and got an extra 2 feet which I can quite comfortably pitch in the bin.

The shipping for the Roma's was $5.80 combined, so I should add on $3.00 each for shipping. But in the real world if I ordered chops I am fairly certain the shipping would have been similar, so I didn't factor that in.

These were kind of different than what I usually come up with. Generally I come out ahead $5-$10 each length I order so it doesn't matter if I pitch the leftovers or not. But I think the example I gave of ordering 11 feet and getting 20 still shows length being viable.

I understand you spend time chopping(5 minutes maybe), there are flaws to work around, but I have run into that rarely. Certain frames I have to order chop due to size restrictions with my saw. Whenever I am around that 9-11 foot area I do the math to see if I want all the extra in the worse case scenario.

I didn't have access to a saw for the past 8 years so I had to decide the advantages of length. Like JRB I prefer to cut my own and I sometimes change the ultimate size when it gets down to doing the work.

So, yes, I am a short length buyer and I am PROUD to say so. Does that answer any questions? Hope so.

[ 03-25-2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: emibub ]
 
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