Another vent about customers.............

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MatFramer

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Posts
345
Loc
Michigan
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

I just spent over an hour helping a customer pick out her framing. I haven't been looking forward to this as she has already taken up a lot of my time during the last year. She did finally buy a print. This is what we were to have framed today.

So, she proceeds to tell me how she has gone to a couple of designers in town looking for fabrics, etc. and how expensive everything is. Then she tells me how she gets the name of the wholesaler and she finds out the wholesale price. She gets very animated as she is telling me they mark up double wholesale cost. (I want to say, "Well, duhhhhh, they are in business." But I hold my tongue.) Then she goes to someone else who will special order the item for her and give her a "much better" price.

So, after she tells me all of this, she starts writing down the numbers on the mat board. I pulled the frame samples away so she couldn't get the numbers on those. I figure if she finds out what I pay for a sheet of matboard, I will never see her again, not that this would be a bad thing. She already admitted that she went somewhere else for framing on something that we had spent a lot of time trying to design.

I guess people like that just don't realize how bad they look when they share information like that.

This is just a vent.
 
So you had Mrs. Pita in your shop. I usually can smell a rat when we start the design process. I wait till they like one of the first samples that I pull and then politely say, "lets price out this to find out what the job will cost" In other words to speed up the "Oh my gosh it costs that much!!!" process. Then of course we march through the different prices for mats, glass, frames and "whats that fit for, charge? with they're head turned side ways with the blank "Huh??" look.

My first client when I opened the door yesterday asked, "How much would it cost to frame a 40 X 65 poster with a simple black metal frame and plexiglass. I asked him if he had been else where for prices, he said "yes, I have been to Aaron Bros. and a poster gallery. I told him that wharehouse prices are different than a custom shop. I suggested for the size of his print a black wood is a better choice and about the same price. I used a frame for under 6.00 and priced out the job on the brown craft paper on the table and gave him a ballpark price of a little over 300.00. He said "Thanks anyway" I asked him what the other quotes were and he said 240.00.
At what point do you quit spending 3 - 5 hours to save a few dollars??? I knew this question from him was not going to lead to a real job so I spent 5 mins with him then went about my day.
Next time Mr. or Mrs. Pita customer comes in (Pita: Pain In The Ass) Ask them if they have ever had custom framing done before and where? Then you can look at the job size it up and tell them it will be about 300.00 to 500.00 for that size. Kindly pick the client up off the floor and point them in the direction of the door and make sure they don't bump into anything in thier dazed state as they head out the door shaking thier head.

Don't waste time on Kmart shoppers or educate them on your quality, selection and justify your prices with the one on one professionalism you offer.

Best wishes,
Glenn
 
We've have a whole branch of the Pita family just up the road from my shop. I've learned the hard (and expensive) way to never let the customer leave with the specs on a job. I've yet to ever see one come back.

If I sense a Pita family member, I,too, get to $$ quickly. Something like, "Did you have a budget in mind for this?" or "Well, as you can see we offer many options for matting, moulding, and the like. I'd estimate this job will range from $XXX on up, depending on the quality and style you select." Then I shut up and wait for the reply. You know real quickly if this customer is worth the design effort and time.

Used to bother me as they bolted for the door, but as my pappy used to say, "If you're going to go broke, don't work hard doing it"!

Dave W.
 
...So, she proceeds to tell me how she has gone to a couple of designers in town looking for fabrics, etc. and how expensive everything is. Then she tells me how she gets the name of the wholesaler and she finds out the wholesale price...

With that, you know this customer does not understand how business works. I guess we all have them.

Sometimes all it takes is a reality check -- a quick explanation of where the costs are, without going into detail about actual $$.

But some customers think retail is a dirty word ("I never pay retail") and think their mission is to make us suffer for their order, like it's a gift. Well, it's not a gift. It's a give & take relationship.

We work for that order. The money we receive is not a gift. We have to provide something of value in exchange for it. It's important for our customers to understand how our products are valuable. It's our job to explain it to them, which is what we call selling.
 
I had one of those just the other day. A client who bought a painting from me and knows that I have an incredible selection brought her in. I knew I was in trouble when she told me that she had been to another framer. She was given different advice on how to handle an oil on canvas. I went along for the ride anyway. I gave her design and price options. I knew I was out of luck when she wanted to write the moulding number down. I should have offered to hold the info. until she decided.

Sure, come on down for free design and advice, then go tell your framer how to do it! :mad:


[ 03-31-2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]
 
Originally posted by MatFramer:
Then she tells me how she gets the name of the wholesaler and she finds out the wholesale price. She gets very animated as she is telling me they mark up double wholesale cost

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You know, there are some people out there that have never been in business and have never really given any thought to how the process works. I've been surprised that even otherwise, well educated people have never thought the process through. Whenever I find myself in a conversation with someone that starts down this path, I just have to speak up! Of course you must handle this very diplomatically, but the fact is, people will continue this unethical practice until they are enlightened. My speech goes something like this:

Brick and Mortar businesses charge higher prices for a reason. They have more overhead. Why? Because they are service oriented. They have to purchase the samples for the customer to come in and look at. They have to rent a convenient location--all with the customer's convenience in mind. They hire and train employees that can give one on one, personal and professional assistance and advice. All of this is paid for by the business owner. The government does not subsidize these expenses, and he does not recieve any monetary thank you from the bare bones warehouse that just shipped out your order.
Brick and Mortar stores are not public libraries provided for you to come into and do your research.
As a custom framer with an interior design service that works out of my space, we have to deal with this all of the time. I OFTEN get apologies after I go through The Speech followed by "I never thought of it that way..."
There have even been a couple of times (when we figured out of m.o. of some cheapskates) to just refuse to let them look at samples. We have gone so far as to tell some that there is an hourly design fee that will be applied towards their order. (Extreme cases only!! I've only used this 2 or 3 times) We NEVER give out numbers.
we keep the estimate in the computer and give them a card with the price and date, and it is good for 30 days. Usually the speech is enough to shame even the determined users from taking advantage of our store anymore! Even the very soft-hearted interior designer has gotten tougher on this issue. So repeat after me,
"This is NOT a public library...This is Not a public library..."
 
It helps to understand that for some of these Pitas, getting "the best deal" is a sport.
They don't care if they spend four hours on the phone, and $10 in gas to save $5. The scoring in this sport is based on your final ticket price.

We actually cater to these strange people. We buy closeout molding, and price it around $5 a foot. The samples for this go in their own spot on the wall with a sign, "this week's special!" The sport pricers go straight to that section. I'll spend a little time with them, getting in what I can about how real life works (such as, "when you skimp on the framing, you only cheat yourself, because you have to look at the thing every day") And I am happy to give them a molding number to take away with them, because I know that the 100' I have in the back is all there is left in the world.

Some of them come back. Some of them have matured, and just get good frames, and sport price on other items. I think I have gotten through about the difference between basic retail (buy it, sell it) and what we do, which is producing a one-of-a-kind item just for them.
 
MatFramer,
Here we get back to the issue of charging a design fee. In your case, with the knowledge provided by the client that they are a bottom feeder, you only serve to beat yourself up by providing free services. They have walked out before and will do it again, and as long as you play doormat, they'll wipe their feet on you on the way out.
If they do this once, chalk it up to experience, get their name in the data banks, and never let them do it again. The other folk posting have great ideas about "pre-qualifying" a client, and sometimes this works. I never work on designs for someone I have never worked with before without first pricing a ficticious frame at an average price. If you allow this to happen twice with the same customer, don't blame the customer. It's like blaming the Vodka for the hangover.
My suggestion would be to offer to work on a design-only basis with her, and request a check for $75.00 up front which would be applied to your framing services if she decides to give you the job. At the end of the hour, just like the therapist says, "your hour is up, and I have other clients I have to prepare for. Here are my notes on the designs we have worked on, please call to make an appointment should you need any further consultation". If you never say no to this person, you will never gain their respect (that is if you want it).

If you "Pre-Vent", you won't have to "Vent".

[ 04-01-2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: wpfay ]
 
Everyone has met Mrs. Pita she is a prolific breeder. Anyway, I was listening to the briefing and how the Colonel handled the questions. Those reporters kept firing the same questions over and over. How does this relate? Some people feel that their job in life is to save money at everyone else's expense. They will work to do it and they will succeed. There is nothing we can do to stop them. It is their role in life to save their money. Fortunately they are few and far between. I always considered afterward that my Mrs. Pita for the month has now come and gone and now I can get down to the real customers with their visit now behind me.
 
We are blessed with many customers with a permanent dreep at the end of their noses...When they inevitably start whining about the costs I just offer to sell them a length and a sheet of mountboard and let them get on with it.I,m sure they will get the kind of quality finish they are looking for that way....And just wait till they see what the glazier charges a punter off the street for glass!
 
Thanks for the comments. I know that we all get members of the "Pita" Family (love that Pita) in our shops. Since I wrote brought this up here, this woman has had the guts to ask me to research another print. If I wait long enough, maybe she will go somewhere else. :D

It has been awhile since I had to use the design fee. I had forgotten that. Customers sure do keep us on our toes. :D

Also, come to find out, she goes into the coffee shop in the next block. Eats her sandwich and then complains the lettuce was wilted, there was a hair in it, too much mayo, etc. and wants her money back. Of course, the sandwich is gone. grrrrrrr.
 
In my area I have a decorating school who sends their students in with pictures as if they are there as a "real" paying customer. It only happened once before I wised up. Now I just asked them if they are from this school before I spend any time on them. I really don't mind helping out the students when I have time but not when they are trying to fool me. I also have shops who send in decoys to try to get my pricing. One woman brought in 4 pictures that she wanted all different kinds of framing on. She knew way to much about the mats, names of mouldings, moulding manufacturers etc. I really smelled a rat. I explained to her that I didn't have the time to be giving out estimates if she was just shopping for price. Now, when I get those types in, I tell them that estimates are free as long as they leave at least one picture for framing. If not then estimates are $15.00 ea. Didn't hurt my business one bit and I haven't had any of those "rats come through my door" in a long time.
 
Buffy brings up an interesting point. We talk all the time about shopping your competition, but we don't want them to shop us.(?). What's the balance here.

It's like some of the threads where we want to pay the least for everything we buy, but we want our customers to recognize why our prices are worth what they pay. (?)

Is it really a double standard? And like I said, what's the balance?

Betty
 
Had a customer last night come in with a beautiful portrait. She complained that her photographer only had a catalogue of frames and mats and wanted her to choose from the catalogue. She said she just wasn't able to visualize the final result. Bob worked with her for about an hour - came up with a stunning design....then she asked for the information. Bob politely told her we would keep it on file for 30 days and honor the price for that time. I imagine she's going back to the photographer with the design in her head and choosing something similar. We decided it would be great fun when a customer asks for the information to quickly type up a "quote" with the ugliest frame number that's in stock, red and turquoise mat numbers, etc, etc. Give them that info to take back to whoever. If they're too lazy to check it out, they would end up with the world's ugliest combination. Just feeling a little vengeful after yesterday's experience......Wasn't the first time, won't be the last.
 
We decided it would be great fun when a customer asks for the information to quickly type up a "quote" with the ugliest frame number that's in stock, red and turquoise mat numbers, etc, etc. Give them that info to take back to whoever. If they're too lazy to check it out, they would end up with the world's ugliest combination. Just feeling a little vengeful after yesterday's experience....
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That's EVIL
hehe

I also have shops who send in decoys to try to get my pricing.
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We have had the same. The funniest was our first week in business. A competitor from a few towns over called for a quote and said they'd be in soon. They didn't think to disable the caller-ID :eek: Andy played along and gave them some information, but thinking back we probably should have told them about the caller-id and offered to compare notes without the 007 tactics.
We printed the estimate and almost mailed it to him, but decided it would have been in poor taste


As far as giving free estimates and design time, we don't have a problem with it. After all, thats OUR JOB and its why we're here. You could bring something to 6 framers easily get 6 different design suggestions, which may or may not appeal to the customer's taste. Even if they walk, they'll remember being treated well and might come back in the future.

What we won't do is give moulding and mat numbers on a written quote. The POS gives very basic information and general descriptions, without #s. If someone told us they can get it wholesale, we would probably wish them well and suggest they go ahead and do so
 
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