Problem An electrifying question

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Paul N

Paul N

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
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17,354
Loc
CT, not far from the LI Sound
I have the feeling my landlord is up to no good.

My electric bill like doubled overnight. The storefront has only neon lights and I use the heat like 30 minutes in the morning only, yet the electric company says there is much more demand from my meter the last 8 weeks. 80-100% more!!

This happened after the landlord rented the space next to me.

Which raised alarm bells because when another tenant left 1 year ago, she had the account closed and the electric turned off - and suddenly she realized 1/2 offices above her lost power!!......So, essentially she was paying the electric bill of the tenants above her for like 3 years! I am thinking maybe I am in the same situation.

The electric company is useless as usual. They can't investigate if there is fraud in this case. They said the landlord has to hire somebody and check if this true....yeah sure!

The storefront is only 450 sq ft yet the bill went from $100 in October to $180 in November to $250 December for 6 neon lights and 1/2 hour of heat / day!

Is there a way / instrument to verify that my meter provides juice just to my shop?? There is a lock on the meter, the landlord has the key, by the way....

PS: There is a separate bill / meter for the work area downstairs. That has not changed
 
Paul ...I had something similar happen in my old store where my landlord did not have separate meters for water and electric for the next door tenet. I was paying for both of us.

The building inspector came out and went through the roof. Seems this landlord was known for such antics. He immediately made him correct the situation.

In most communities this is an illegal practice.
 
Go to your circuit breaker box and turn off the main switch. Do it during the day and see what happens next door!

I have noticed in this old building that when the couple upstairs vacuums my computer reboots. I would think the wiring isn't properly seperated between the different units.
 
While it may be illegal, it certainly is common. Get an electrician and have him look the place over. You may even be able to get the neighbour to help you look it over, seeing as how he doesn't want to be part of the problem.
 
I had to deal with this last year; hopefully you have access to the circuit breaker/fuses. If not, you should!

This is what I did:
Every outlet I had access to had something plugged in and turned on (be sure all electronics are off and if you have one, call your secuity monitoring office to let them know you are testing).
Flip the breakers one at a time and see what shuts off. Keep a record of the breaker number and what it covers. Once you go through all of them and determine which ones are yours, leave all others off. Guaranteed you'll get a call from either the landlord or the other tennants. This will open up the conversation!

Blame it on your environmental concern that rouge breakers should be disengaged!

When I did this, the landlord called me within the hour!
 
Thanks all for the good suggestions.

As Randy said, I have a feeling the meters are screwed up on purpose or otherwise.

But will test the master switch when it gets dark or when they're busy....:p
 
Paul you are in an old building aren't you? It is easy to see how wires from one box may have gone to another unit. My old space was poorly wired. I put in a remote controlled outlet and the three prong outlet was connected to old rubber wrapped crumbly two strand wire. It was pretty scary stuff! When I left I told the landlord to get an electrician in and update the system, but I seriously doubt he will. I "shared" a meter with two offices above me, so I insisted that he pay the electric until it was separated. He never got it separated.
 
Yah I'm still think my gas/nicor is screwed up...................I'm pretty sure I've been paying for upstairs..........:faintthud:
I tried to get them to fix it.......but you know what.......Its way smaller space up there............and I've spent way too much time figuring it out......Its in the hands of the rental/management company as far as I'm concerned...........:D
Good luck Paul!! ;)
 
The power company here does a free energy audit. It includes checking breakers, replaced bulbs, covered the water heater etc. That could be a free way to get it checked.
 
When the unit next to mine was rented to a Karate Studio a few years ago, he was in the midst of a remodel and had to move a few electrical outlets. But, none of his circuit breakers controlled them.

I turned off one of mine, and lo and behold, two of his outlets shut off. Apparently, I was paying for the stores next door for almost 15 years. I don’t think it added up to too much since they were only used for the occasional vacuuming by the former tenants.

The Karate guys electrician fixed it without involving the landlord.

Probably the easiest way to check is to turn off all of your circuit breakers, then check the meter. If it is still whirring, you gots a problem.

I was gonna say something like, "it's shocking", but that would have been too easy.
 
Bill Henry- said:
Probably the easiest way to check is to turn off all of your circuit breakers, then check the meter. If it is still whirring, you gots a problem.
QUOTE]

I was thinking of this, but is it correct? No electrician would wire from between the meter and the main switch. How would the circuit be protected?
Click to expand...
 
I still think you should ask for a "re-read" of the meter. I had a similar thing happen and it turned out to have been a mis-read and I received an adjustment fom the power company.
 
i had a similiar problem with a place i bought and didn't realize it for over a year. it was easy to fix, by an electrician. your landlord might not even know electricity is being shared.
in my case the place was divided, undivided and sold so many times since it was built, even propper inspections didn't find it.

if you can label each outlet and switch from the circuit breakers it will save big on the electricians hourly rate.
 
Yeah, something could be messed up especially if this is an older building that has had lots of rewiring done over the years.

My current shop is actually two interconnected commercial units with two separate electrical services. When I first took the space I noticed numerous questionable bits of wiring, mostly done by the former tenant. One piece I saw horrified me: a wire connecting a lighting circuit in one unit to a lighting circuit in the other. Flipping either switch would cause the lights in both units to come on. Essentially he was simulating a three-way switch by back-feeding from one circuit to another... on two separate electric services!! Talk about not code! That was the very first thing I ripped out...
 
I don't think you can trust the breaker box. In an old building, the breaker circuit can run through multiple units. Turn off everything in your shop and unplug anything that draws juice (like transformers). Then check the meter to see if it's turning. The reverse of this would be to turn off all your breakers during the day and see who squawks.
 
tedh said:
No electrician would wire from between the meter and the main switch. How would the circuit be protected?
Click to expand...

They wouldn't (hopefully!) put an unprotected circuit in, but what looks like the main breaker panel could actually be a sub-panel. We have I think four panels in our building that all look like the one in your house, but they all are run off one meter.

Rob Markoff said:
I still think you should ask for a "re-read" of the meter. I had a similar thing happen and it turned out to have been a mis-read and I received an adjustment fom the power company.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't hurt, but as far as I know meters that are manually read are cumulative. That is, they don't get reset every month; kind of like an odometer. So if it was misread it should self correct after a month.

Sounds to me like you're paying for at least part of the other tenant's electricity. As others have suggested, I would start by shutting off your main breaker when you know the other tenant is there and using obvious electricity and see what happens. Then look at your meter to see if it's still turning. Worst case scenario is you hire an electrician to come and do some tracing. It may not be cheap, but if it turns out he can prove you're paying for your neighbor's electric not only would it "pay" for itself in reduced utility bills, but your landlord should reimburse you for your expense.
 
and yet one more reason to own your own store building.
 
I had/have something similar going on. We have a nice landlord and he fixed the problem. It was reversed though, the people next door paid for my electricity....
Now I'm not sure about the heat (gas) bill though. Seems I pay a lot but it's also been very very cold the past few weeks and have nothing to compare it to. Will keep an eye on it.

If you decide to get an electrician out and you are paying for other units, make sure your landlord will pay for it in the end. Should not come out of your own pocket. Talk to the other tenant and see if they are willing to cooperate.
 
tedh said:
Bill Henry- said:
Probably the easiest way to check is to turn off all of your circuit breakers, then check the meter. If it is still whirring, you gots a problem.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of this, but is it correct? No electrician would wire from between the meter and the main switch. How would the circuit be protected?
Click to expand...
I think so. When I had my darkroom at home wired, I watched the electrician. There is a major switch “upstream” from the meter (in our case across the street); the meter itself; another “minor” shut off inside the house; then the circuit breaker panel (some panels have the “minor” switch in the panel itself, but still “downstream” from the meter).

If that “minor” shut off or all the circuit breakers are off, then no power will get down stream and the meter shouldn’t whir. The meter itself has a motor which draws just the tiniest amount of electricity, so it won’t completely stop. But, you would need to stare at the meter for a while before you see it moving. You could probably ask the power company how much current the meter itself draws.

If there is a power bandit somewhere in Paul’s building, the disk will move fairly quickly.
 
I was just looking at the meter.

It's one of those digital ones that doesn't show a moving disk or any moving parts but shows like 6-7 multiple alternating readouts. It is really hard to tell how much it is consuming or if it is running just by looking at it.

The building itself is not old by the way, maybe 15 years.

I tried the master switch approach yesterday, but nobody said anything. On the other hand, If I lose power for a few minutes I wouldn't suspect the neighbors, I usually think the electric company is acting up!
 
You could always hire an electrician to come and make sure your wiring is on separate breakers. (Providing there's enough room in your breaker box).

Then turn the ones off that aren't yours.
 
janetj1968 said:
You could always hire an electrician to come and make sure your wiring is on separate breakers. (Providing there's enough room in your breaker box).

Then turn the ones off that aren't yours.
Click to expand...

That's all well and good for the ones that are yours. But if the wiring from the circuit goes to your shop AND theirs then you will still be supplying them with electricity.

That's where the soup gets messy. Better to turn off all your circuits and then find all the live ones in your shop. Then plug all your expensive to run tools into those outlets! Let the other guy pay for your electricity for a while!

If the power flows from you to them then it makes sense that it also flows from them to you. Have you ever noticed a "dead outlet" that now works ;)
 
Check your bill................

Everyone should look at how much power they are using every so often. You can look at the kilowatt hours you have been using and use a device like the "Kill A Watt"

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ctronic+Gadgets-_-P3+International-_-82715001

to see how efficient the devices are that are plugged into your outlets.

With a little higher math, you could determine an estimate of what your meter should be displaying. You usually pay an average for the kilowatts used in a day's time.

My wife and I recently changed our home service to a meter that registers the kilowatts used, by time of day. We pay the going rate for peak and off peak based on what and when our consumption is.

We aren't home using much electricity during peak times and now make an effort to use the dryer and other high draw appliances during the off peak hours, which for us isn't a hardship.

We saved about 18% last month. The plan by the utility advertises 14% average savings if you use it properly.

We receive rate quotes from the utility for the next day, the day before by e-mail. So, if in the summer when we would be running the air conditioning, if the rates are going to be higher the next day due to increased demand, we have the choice of raising the thermostat or turning the air off if we choose to conserve.

I am not sure if this is available in a lot of markets, or if it is available for businesses, or would be feasible. But, for the home user, where available, it can mean significant savings.

Sorry if this rambles and is a bit of a frankenthread. But, I thought it could be useful. We have found it so. :D

Rob
 
Bob Doyle said:
That's all well and good for the ones that are yours. But if the wiring from the circuit goes to your shop AND theirs then you will still be supplying them with electricity. )
Click to expand...

Ah, I see what you're saying.

I'm saying trace all of those outlets back to the box and put them on your own circuits...Bob's saying...what if one of those wires branches off before it comes back to the box...

:shrug:

He has a point....

Maybe the electrician would have a way to find out if the wiring is split somewhere before the box...
 
Paul N said:
My electric bill like doubled overnight.
Click to expand...

Paul since you are in CT with a electronic meter insist that your utility company retest it for accuracy. When the utility company tells you that their meters never make an error mention the Attorney General as he is investigating the meter problems i.e. bills going from $300 to $5000 dollars overnight. Check out the consumer advocates column in what is left of the Hartford Courant for on going problems with this issue.
 
Empty space next to me was rented. My electric bill went through the roof. No responce from electric company, landlord, or new neighbour. I did some checking of the wiring and panels and then confirming the meter number matched my bill I threw the switch. My store still had power. Lots of noise from next door as they were a software developer and had just lost a lot of work. Neighbour yelled and screemed and threatened to sue. I pointed out that I had told him I was going to throw the switch and he had told me to go ahead and that according to the electric company records as this was my meter and switch I had the right to do it. I suggested he sue the electric company. Electric company was here within an hour and confirmed the meters were cross numbered in their billing system. I went back over 12 years of my hydro bills and came up with a number. The electric company surprisingly agreed and although they wouldn't give me a refund they did give me a credit and I didn't pay another electricity bill for 34 months.
 
What kind of business are the next door tenants?

Heres my $.02
I would wait untill they came in and had plenty of time to turn on all their stuff. lights computers etc. or untill dark (could be that maybe just the outdoor lights are connected)
Then flick the main breaker to off. Then stroll next door just for a friendly visit. Tell them your power just went out and ask if any of theirs has gone out. If they have any equipment "being friendly" ask them how it works & what it does etc.(demo Please) just to see if it is working.

Our meters are only read here every three months the other months are estimated by the electric company.
 
Happens All the Time

What I did was I shut EVERYTHING off and took all the plugs out of the wall...thenI went to the meter to see if it was still running....sure enough it was. Everything in my building is "rigged" to some extent. Which brings me to another question...this building will be going up for sale real soon. The landlady is ill and they just put her in a nursing home. I have a 5 year lease. Will the new owners be able to drastically raise my rent and if they want me out will they have to buy me out???
 
Franny said:
this building will be going up for sale real soon. The landlady is ill and they just put her in a nursing home. I have a 5 year lease. Will the new owners be able to drastically raise my rent and if they want me out will they have to buy me out???
Click to expand...

Depends on the language of your lease, and local law - ask (pay) a lawyer if it concerns you, or when it becomes an issue.
 
" paying the electric bill of the tenants above her for like 3 years"


now THAT is the basis for a very juicy law suit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
'look at this poor woman, your hounor...driven out of business by the greedy/nefarious/careless/dangerous(YOU supply the adjectives) landlord!" (not to mention that the city is culpably negligent in NOT catching the bad wiring job-assumes there was a permit/examination of premises-and lastly, the idiot that actually did the wiring! just think of the unsuspecting new guy who goes in,tomorrow, to rewire part of an office, goes to the box, turns the main breaker off(killing ALL the power to this office area), goes up the ladder to do the job, grabs the wire(he knows there's NO power(he just killed the main feed, remember?), and gets electrocuted!!!!!!!!! bet even a newly made PA could get this one won!!!!!!!!!!!! If wiring in your place is truely screwedup that badly you(as in all the tennants) should engage the services of a lawyer, soonest, as to ALL the ramifications of what to do about what...you're living in a dangerous firetrap(& getting taken in the pocketbooks in the bargin!)
 
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