Ammonia Question...

Pang Shu

Grumbler
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
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29
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USA
I've heard for years that we must always use ammonia free glass cleaner. However, I can only find one reference to this in Paul Fredrick's classic book. Many other books "glaze" over the glass cleaning process.

I'd like to see some hard proof that glass cleaning products containing ammonia cause noticeable damage to artwork. Wouldn't the cleaner evaporate before causing noticeable damage? Are ammonia free products really THAT important? I'd like to hear some horror stories about the catastrophic effects of using ammonia glass cleaners.

I just want to make sure that I'm making a decision based on facts.
 
Oxidizing Gases
Ozone (O3) is a powerful oxidizing gas produced by sunlight (UV) reacting with oxygen (O2). Peroxides (XO2) originate from fumes in wall paint, cardboard and household cleaners. Ammonia (NH3) is present in household cleaning solutions such as ammonium hydroxide, and in solvents. These oxidizing gases discolor organic-based colorants in artwork and can enhance the formation of acids.

Dont confuse smell or lack of smell as a safe / unsafe measure

Household ammonia is 5-10% ammonia; skin contact can cause burns; high concentrations can cause chemical pneumonia; mixing w/alkalis releases ammonia gas; mixing w/chlorine bleach forms poison gas....

Are you serious that you would even consider let anything like this near artwork!!!!!!

:rolleyes:
faintthud.gif
 
Let's say I frame 2 "identical" prints using preservation practices, and hang them side by side on the same wall. The only variable would be ammonia vs. ammonia free glass cleaner. Would you be able to tell a significant difference between the two after 25 years?
 
I'm not using household ammonia to clean the glass, but some household cleaners may contain ammonia. For instance, Windex may contain ammonia. Would you be able to tell the difference between a print framed with Windex compared to one framed with Sprayway after 25 years?
 
Perhaps if you would elaborate your reason for wanting to use a Ammonia based cleaner when non Ammonia cleaners are available, it would make giving you a considered response easier…

Why do you want to use a Ammonia based cleaner!!!!!

Yes I would feel that if you made up two frames that the one which had been cleaned with the Ammonia cleaner would show greater damage …..this is because you may possible trap some Ammonia residue within the frame package ……….you would have no way of knowing if all the Ammonia residue was gone from the glass……


Dermot
 
I just wanted to know the reason for using ammonia free glass cleaners. I just couldn't find anyone that could explain the catastrophic damage windex would cause compared to sprayway.

I don't neccesarily want to use one or the other. It was more of a hypothetical question. I've never seen or heard of a print being destroyed due to "ammonia residue" from your glass cleaner.
 
Ammonia residue??
It should vaporise and disperse quickly. Your nose is highly sensitive to it and is a good indicator. You may detect an oder on the glass after cleaning which is likely the perfumes used in the product to give a fresh smell. I don't know the effect of these perfumes on art, but these should disperse over a short time.

The OP may have heard that ammonia should not be used on certain types of glazing, such as acrylic, where the chemical may react and haze the acrylic after many cleanings.
John
 
Dont confuse smell or lack of smell as a safe / unsafe measure

This is one of the very basic rules in safety training…..

You cannot smell carbon monoxide ………yet it will kill you…….

You cannot smell natural gas ……it can kill you ……….what you smell in natural gas is an additive “Mercaption” …….which is added so that if there is a gas leak you have some chance of detecting the danger


Dermot
 
I just asked my uncle about this, long time framer. He said only ammonia left under the glass will damage anything. John is right, it should be evaporated before you assemble the package. If it's gone, no damage, ever. And no worries.

I myself use ammonia free just cause I had it. No other reason.
 
True you can't smell carbon monoxide or natural gas, those are odorless, but ammonia is not. Isin't it true that ammonia has a distinctive odor?? Or do they add that smell to ammonia as they do to propane or natural gas?

I am glad to read this info though and will use ammonia free cleaners from now on.

Could someone post a list of suggested products?

Thanks
 
I have had good results for years with TruVue's own glass cleaner. Someone else posted that it is identical to Sparkle ® Glass Cleaner which is easily available at Meijer and other stores.

:cool: Rick
BTW, I like the fact that it's purple too.
 
I love ammonia as a cleaner as it does evaporate and one doesn't have to rinse as with other detergent surfactant type cleaners. However I don't frame, so don't take this as an endorsement to use it for cleaning framing glass.

Chemistry wise, my understanding is that it evaporates completely, and so should be fine. HOWEVER, I did hear a report from a photographer who used an ammonia based cleaner on glass, swore it all evaporated, but subsequently had discoloration on the photos framed with glass that had been cleaned with NH4, but not with the ones that hadn't. So the perception of evaporation, and the reality of it, could be two different things.

Now when I need to clean glass for framing (rare), I use ethanol.

Perhaps Hugh will have some wisdom to share here?

Rebecca
 
Originally posted by artisteric:
it should be evaporated before you assemble the package.
How would you know it has fully evaporated before you assemble the package!!!!!

Dermot
 
First of all, let me say that I respect and admire all of your collective years of framing experience, and my question was not meant to seem insulting in any way.

Has FACTS addressed this issue? It seems that many of the "rules" surrounding picture framing is based on heresay and rumour. Then we will defend our opinions on these issues without any facts or examples.

Sure - ammonia is a dangerous substance. But does the levels of ammonia in windex or other cleaners warrant a death sentence in picture framing? Does the "ammonia residue" really cause sigificant damage to artwork?

It seems from the varaint posts that this question is still open to debate...
 
Is it dumb of me to think that following the manufacturer's recommendations regarding cleaning of their glass is a good idea? Tru Vue museum glass has a strong recommendation attached AGAINST ammonia cleaners...thought it referred to degradation of the coating.
='.'=
 
TruVue, Sparkle, Sprayway, any others? Now I gotta get out and buy something other than the items I currently use.

What about glass cleaners for resale. This would have to be private labeled or a national brand but not a brand the customer could get at the grocery or dept. store. Where can these be purchased for a reasonable price?

Thanks,
AC Mach
 
while I think it is safe to say we should "first, do no harm" and the idea that ammonia might do harm would preclude me from using it, I can also understand where Pang is coming from.

Has any one actually done a clinical experiment to find out whether or not ammonia residue actually exists after it is wiped off the glass and does said residue actually cause any harm to the item being framed.

I also agree that alot of the rules are based on heresay and rumor.

Arteristic posted about his uncle, a long time framer...
and then Rebecca posts that a photographer she knows swears he had problems.

No offense to these two but this is exactly what Pang is talking about.

Let's have someone at Facts commission a test to find out once and for all whether it does cause harm.

I, personally do not use anything with ammonia because I was told not to for the reasons stated here. That, plus the fact it just plain stinks!! Not using it does not lessen my finished product so it is no hardship for me.

I use Glass Plus which is ammonia free and I can get it at any supermarket.
 
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