Am I Crazy? Selling readymade mats...

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Verdaccio

Verdaccio

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Posts
757
Loc
Berthoud, Colorado
So...I have two friends who are photographers. They mat a lot of work using readymade paper mats which they either buy at a BB, or off the internet.

They typically pay between $2.00 to $2.50 for an 11x14 with an 8x10 opening.

They wanted to know if I could compete with that.

I called my local BB and they are currently selling those 11x14 mats for $1.99 single opening, or $3.99 double. That's their 50% off price, and they have a very limited assortment of colors.

These are standard paper mats.

I just put a 32x40 sheet of Artique matboard into my CMC and set up a layout. I got:

6 - 11x14 mats with 8x10 openings
6 - 8x10 mats with 4x6 openings - from the fallout of the 11x14s
4 - 5x7 mats with 3x5 openings

16 mats. 9 minutes of labor to cut and shrink wrap in 2 packets of 6, and one of 4.

Sell the 11x14 mats for $2.25 each - $13.50
Sell the 8x10 mats for $1.75 each - $10.50
Sell the 5x7 mats for $1.40 each - $5.60

If they all sell through, that's $29.60. AND, you are offering a better quality mat at competitive pricing to the BBs paper mats...

Even if you only sold the 11x14s for $13.50, we all know what a sheet of Artique costs us...and if you buy sheets in bulk...it's not huge margins...but it is competitive and a better product...why wouldn't I do this?

Am I crazy? Is there something here I am missing?
 
first off, your 8x10s cut from the drop of the 11x14s will be a little shy of 8x10 and the opening in the 11x14s won't have much overlap. If that is ok with you and your customers fine. This would be great for the photogs as long as they bought them in packages as you discribed. Trouble comes when all they want are 11x14s and you end up with a ton of other size cut mats collecting dust. I would not do this for shop inventory out of fresh stock.
After you get going a while you will end up with plenty of drops that would be fair game for these. I don't keep anything under 14" on the short side in the bins. Any thing smaller gets tossed in a box for cut mats and saved for school art departments.
 
Keep in mind that an 8 x 10 opening is not usually 8 x 10. It's usually 7.25 x 9.25.

Instead of shrink wrap, get the clear bags from United. Instead of several minutes on the shrink wrap, you have about 15 seconds to slip it in the bag.

I don't use Artique. But I'm assuming it's a conservation board. If you're selling conservation, and the BB is selling paper, your price should be higher. Sell your photographer friends on how much better their work will look when the core of the mat doesn't turn yellow.

I think the question of whether to sell these or not rests with how much time you have, and what other work you have that can produce revenue. If you're playing solitaire during the day, then by all means spend some time making mats. If you have opportunities for higher margin work, then it may be a waste of your time.
 
Am I crazy? Is there something here I am missing?
Click to expand...

Concerning cutting precut mats to sell on a speculative basis, what volume do you expect to sell? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Are you going to actively market this product? If it's just a handful then all you are doing is scratching around for pennies, and not worth messing with ... better to wait till someone needs a standard size and cut it out of whatever oddments you have.

Concerning a commercial inquiry from photographers to purchase a certain amount in volume, just price it accordingly. If you are not at full capacity, pricing can be more aggressive than it would be if it jeopardized other more profitable work, unless of course you feel a low price will canibalize other business and/or create an impression that does not jive with the image you wish to present.

Just one old fart's opinion!
 
OK - FWIW

I only but in metal RMFs - oh - and some swepts (Is that OK framing speak 'Swept Frames'?)

But I sell a lot of others and we make them all ourselves.

Best size for us is 12x10" with a mat (Which will either be a double or have a fillet)

2" margin = 8x6"
2 1/2" margin = 7x5"
3" margin = 6x4"

No Mat = Photoframe!

Four birds!

You could do 1" margin for a 10x8" as well - but for me - RMF or no - 2" is pushing it!

Problem is that standard sizes have different proportions - 20x16" is a 4" difference.

Next size down is OK - 16x12" - same 4" difference

Now it's 14x11" - 3" difference

Then it's 12x10" - 2" difference

After that you're OK - let's hear it for the 12x10"!!!

Square RMFS or RM Mats are very cool - not easy to find either - apparently.

Start with pretty much any square rebate size and you're away - with ever-increasing mat margins.
 
Go down to HobLob on a 50%-of-mattes week. You will see the most forlorn assortment of overcut, undercut, sloppily cut, wobbly cut, egregiously shopworn, generally c****y mattes on the most dirtball, sub-4ply, acid-enhanced paper imaginable. Unfortunately, many folks fail to perceive the differences between these and anything a professional framer would find acceptable. That's what you're up against, perceptions. As always customer education is required.

On another tack, what's hot with photographers now (at least in New Mexico galleries) is snowy white, rich, creamy looking, completely amorphous 8 ply mattes. Find these at a BB, no way! A few internet operations offer them, but not at BB prices. Offer this kind of stuff locally at a reasonable price and you may have something that will get those photo guys flocking to your cash register.

BTW, think 13x19 image size, which is the "new 16x20" of photography, suprising how much this important size is ignored in general. Have some 19x25 mattes and frames ready to go, you will be seen as a very hip guy. OK, make that 18 x 24 with a 12.25 x 18.25 cutout, you get 4 these out a 36x48, you will still be hip, trust me on this.
 
Interesting replies. I think my answer will be, "#### yes I can be competitive....and I will give you a much better mat!"

Further, I am looking for additional lines in the store. A bin of readymade mats is where this is headed.

Bill: Great idea for the 13x19s and the 8 ply mats! Thanks! :)

Per your replies, yes my 8x10s were not exact 8x10. They are actually 7 7/8ths by 9 7/8ths outside. I only cut in an additional 1/8th, not 1/4 as normal. I am not sure that is gonna work. I want to offer an exact 8x10 and thus may have to cut something else out of the 11x14 insides.

Where this is leading is...I am working out for my shop how I can beat the BBs on EVERY point. Price and quality and service on custom framing - better quality ready made frames and mats at competitive prices to the BBs junk product.
 
Ya know...there are people out there who argue that pi IS a rational number... :P

Johnny, I may be completely off base here, but I am just open, hungry, and trying to expand my thinking into the way beyond.

So I started thinking about the BBs and what they typically sell a million dollars a year in each store...

I want to sell a better ready made frame. And I am gonna call it that - "A Better Frame" - with CC glass, a conservation mat and acid free backing board.

I want to sell pre-cut mats in a variety of colors - better mats at competitive prices to their crappy paper mats.

I have priced out custom framing and my goal is to beat the #### out of them in price, quality, and service.

In short, give my customers absolutely no reason to go to a BB ever again for framing.

It may not work. I may not be able to compete on price...but I am sure as #### gonna try!
 
I was just joking. We need clicky smilies to make it easier for us lazy people. Give em #### brother!
 
Michael, I'm glad you brought up this subject. Clearing out my mat/glass room today, to put up the new wall cutter, I threw out 5+ barrels of foamcore and glass scraps (11-inches wide strips that could be 11x14 and smaller), but couldn't bring myself to toss the matbd scraps. Kept thinking "readymade mats......readymade mats" and thinking I can cut them down to blanks, and cut out the mats here and there as I have time (HA!), then pop them into Clear-bags (clearbags.com, in case you're interested) and sell 'em as readymades. In my spare time....yeah, right! Spare time?? HA!! Just gotta make the time, and then make the room. Holy cow, do those small pieces multiply and take over in a hurry. The Matboard Monster!!

I do this matboard frenzy every 6 months or so, great intentions, savesavesave, sortsortsort, and then get a conscious moment and haul it all off to the Boys and Girls Club, and start all over again.This time I'm determinded to turn that scrap stuff into $$, so I'm not haulin' it away....yet.

I'm pretty sure I am not alone in this.

Keep us posted. It's a great idea, but your shop is new and soooo clean and, and, and....the Matboard Monster is just being born.

Beware....
 
I did a lot of stuff like this in the early years, but sooner or later you'll get too busy and will need to spend your time on bigger fish. YOu'll end up buying your ready made mats and and frames and doing a few when you can. We make a lot of RM frames, but only make mats when a trainee is training. Meanwhiile, go for it. Nothing to loose! Hey, in the first few years I took frmes HOME to join them at night!

Now I just work on the web site ay night, ads, etc...oh, and Grumble!
 
...and check with Impact www.clearbags.com for your plastic bags....make sure they know you are a business...much better pricing and a huge selection.

I wouldn't cut the openings to such tight tolerances. You make too many assumptions about the size of precut photo paper (often +- 1/8"), and the skill level/patience of the photographer.

If you want to comparison shop better quality mats look at the pricing at Light Impressions or University Products.
 
i don't know if you have an Aaron Brothers around you, but they sell their acid free RM Mats for an 8x10 @ 9.99, and they have a ton of 8ply mats. In white and black, with opposite cores as well. They are crescent mats.

They also sell double mats in all sorts of combinations as well, but all that ever sold were white/white, cream/cream, white or cream/black, black/white, black, cream, white/gold or silver.

So I don't know how wise it is to sell all sorts of colors, b/c from what i have noticed in the RM realm is that they don't really sell.

I think that 16x20 8ply went for about 18.99.
And 4x6 went for 2.99

And the NEVER had them on sale. Everything else would go on sale, but not those.


Just thought I would offer what I know about RM Mats.

Maybe you should have a scrap bin with mats cut down to the appropriate outside size, and then cut the inside on the spot, avoiding not having enough overlap, or that odd size that a photographer will most likely walk in with.

also RM sizes:

8x10, 9x12, 10X13, 11X14, 12X16, 14X18, 16X20, 18x24, 20x24, 22x28, 24x36, 27x40, 27x41. (I worked at Aaron Brother's a lil too long!)
 
Good info and thanks all for sharing! It is good to see that folks don't have time to do this sort of "penny chasing" work. For me right now, I have the time and while it may not be high margin...it is margin, it helps fill the shop, and it gives me yet another point to compete with the BBs.

Thanks for the references to clearbags.com too! I will place an order tomorrow.

I agree that going crazy with colors is probably not a great idea. But I am going to place an order for 25 sheets or so to get the price break and cut a selection out of a few colors.

Will post pics of the design I came up with for the inside window...it's fun!
 
Jessica, Thanks for the information. I have been in the back room chopping and joining ready-made frames this week. More of a cleaning up process then a needing to sell ready-mades thing.

What sizes of RM frames sold the best?
I am currently chopping from shorts so the frame size is determined by what 4 sticks I have rather then what I would like have. But I will be starting on a pile of longer mouldings that are older slower selling or PITA mouldings where a RM quality would be fine but not for custom.

Verdaccio, We have a pile of 16x20 and 11x14 boards that we sized from disc Miller boards that we sell for $5 and $3 respectively. We will cut an opening in it while they wait. Not to many take us up on it.
 
It saddens me to see a freshman custom framer taking on BB's for his life. I can understand being forced into that desperate position though, but to open a custom framing business with your eyes glued onto BB's ball it is more than crazy, it's criminal. If what you see as being your business opportunity was indeed a promising avenue, and photographers were flocking to Loveland, CO to by $1.89 ready made better mats, someBBody else would have already imported from China such mats by the boat and sold them at $0.5 instead of $1.99 a piece. If you want to commit a spectacular suicide, cater for BB's clients and cut BB's price.
Until you become a recognized and busy custom framer you need to spend your time and energy struggling to learn more in this area, hone your skills up and promote yourself as such. Sooner or later people will notice they've got a new framer in town. Cutting better and cheaper mats by CMC is yet far from being a framer, much less a custom framer. BB's market "worse and more expensive" mats than yours for a very good reason that has to do with what their clients need is and how frequently they buy such items. The fact that you can beat BB's by a few cents is not going to hurt them but you and I can't believe that nobody told you that as yet.
 
Save some time

I have a selection of RMF frames that I also have RM mats "blanks" available. If someone comes in with an item and they want to fit it into a RMF, and they want/need a mat cut, I have them look at the selection of blanks, pick a color and I cut it to size. I start the 8x10's off at $7 and add to that by size. These mats were leftovers that I did not want to stuff into my bins, so instead of donating boxes of them as I have in the past, I cut them into the std sizes to fit my RMF selection. I have them on a book shelf near the RMF's and sell a few, but not a ton (space not utilized for anything else). Pure profit. It only takes the time to cut them down, and I usually do that during slow times or when I need a break from framing or thinking about framing.

works for me, and I don't have to put a lot of effort into it. I don't get a lot of foot traffic, so the precut/bagged ones I tried didn't move.

Elaine
 
Hey V man-Bet the farm that most posts reflect how that person feels about it; not it's effectiveness. And that rarely rflects your needs or market

Easy answer? try it

Worst case scenario: You might end up with some dusty inventory and be out a few bucks

Best case: You make a few bucks, create a little traffic and maybe dvelop a little "niche" for photog that might use you when they actually do need a custom project

For very little money and effort, run a test

I think Elaine's experience might bear attention
 
Three times a week, I stay late (after shop closes) and churn out ready made mats. I pack them in lots of 12 of the same size and sell them at a competitive price with the online companies. Most of the lot is white with a few funky colors mixed in. I sell the heck out of them, mostly to professional photographers and wanna be professional photographers. About 10 years ago, my father visited my shop and watched me throw a boat load of scraps into the dumpster, and told me that I was throwing money away, and I was. Yes, I do stay late to do this, but that extra income is worth it for me anyway.
 
Nicfrz,

How much do you charge for one regular hour of labor (as a framer), and how much do you actually make (as a mat churner) in ONE OF THOSE EXTRA HOURS in which you produce ready made mats? If you prefer, you can compare profit margins instead of labor. I know that when hungry, one needs to do anything to put food on the table, regardless of his best professional assets. But let's not confuse or overlap a "second source of income" with the business of framing just because it's done on same premises and uses same tools. You could have done many other things out of those mat boards, including doll houses and origami.
In fact this topic (aside assessing Verdaccio's sanity) is about making some money in top of that realized from framing. In search for extra income some framers will sell jewels, others odd or antique items. I know of a framer who is renting his elegant show room for conferences and business meetings. Nothing wrong with making extra money except when the extra dollar is obtained at an insane cost and that activity is rationalized into some heroic deed, like winning against BB's by way of selling more and better for less to clients that don't know what better is, nor that they care for anything else but price.
 
While, it is certainly about turning a few extra dollars into my pockets, it is also about exploring my marketspace and seeing what my customers want and will buy...and using up valuable scrap matboard...and about giving me something to do with my extra time...something I have a bit of since I just started...

So while I may not beat the BBs in every category, I will do my best to beat them in as many as I compete with them in and give the folks in my town fewer and fewer reasons to visit them when they could visit me. :)

Hopefully in a few months I will be saying "Heck no! I am so busy framing I don't have time to make readymades and pre-cut mats! Go get those things at Hobby Lobby!"

IN the meantime...I will continue my ruminations, my explorations, and my readymade-tions and thank you all for your continued valuable insight. :)
 
I see no percentage in cutting 5 x 7, 8 x 10 or 11 x 14 mats and selling them for a couple of dollars. The same goes for 5 x 7 and 8 x 10 photo frames from scrap moulding.

Here’s something that has worked for us: use scrap mats and moulding to cut 12 x 14 and 12 x 16 frames and mats for 8 x 10 or 8 x 12 photos. Have them preassembled so the customer can get a perfect visual. They sell for $45 to $55 each. I try to keep a dozen of these in stock and I’ve had photographers clean me out with one sale.

Show your friends the advantage of the 12 x14 size for their 8 x 10 photo and mention (in a nice way:)) that the pre cut 11 x 14 is for amateurs.

Doug
 
Here's an alternate use for some of those mat scraps, if you are relatively new to using a CMC -- use them to practice designing with the CMC, especially in Pathtrace.
 
Verdaccio said:
So while I may not beat the BBs in every category, I will do my best to beat them in as many as I compete with them in and give the folks in my town fewer and fewer reasons to visit them when they could visit me. :)

Hopefully in a few months I will be saying "Heck no! I am so busy framing I don't have time to make readymades and pre-cut mats! Go get those things at Hobby Lobby!"
Click to expand...

If you start in business by selling at low price, you will hardly improve your price later on. You'll be hold to your "promise" to beat BB's and cheap costumers will be your market. Don't go near there unless you really have a way to be the lowest priced framer in town and remain alive, enjoy a living, have your vacations, your home and family, take care of your health etc. Don't proclaim yourself at war with BB's because you might get what you wished for and, being a low end custom framer is the least enviable position to be in. In recent years US framing shops lost 1/3 of the stores once in existence. Guess who went belly up?
You do what you need to do in order to survive but don't call it a business because surviving is just getting to see another day. That photographer who asked if yoy can beat BB's price did so because he wanted to better his margins. Your answer was suicidal: "not only that I can beat BB's price for that specific item, but I'll overbid an already stinky proposal by offering even more and better for less money, and vow to fight for BB's costumers". This is reckless driving applied to business and you are not going to reach your destination this way. Don't take comfort from other grumblers' stories. At one low point in life we all had to swallow and pretend it was tasty. Cashing on scrap is barely surviving to those who are not in recycling. Being able to fight BB's back take much expertise, capital, intelligent and inexpensive labor for then you compete with China and India, not with the guys across the street.
 
I love the passion of my friend, Cornel. He defends the craftsmanship and dedication to it that typifies his product

Not many of us have that claim (even though many might think differently)

My pea-brained opinion is that most of us simply have to fight for our sales. As much as we think they line up waiting for our expertise, the majority simply opt for severa stimuli

Those might be conveinence

It might be skill and craftsmanship

It might be price

It might be habit

Rest assured each has it's followers; none of which may be enough to satisfy our own financial requirements. If you can survive by feeding from one trough only, good for you. Craftsman like Cornel certainly can

The more plebian of us probably need to figure a way to attract a few segments

If it means taking on a BB on occasion in a battle that I can win, then that's a hill I will fight for. Perhaps a better moral of this might be to pick your battles wisely
 
No doubt Bob. My point is this. The BBs constantly advertise 50% off custom framing. They are marking things up 4x or more and selling at 50%.

This means that people still leave those places shaking their heads thinking "How'd I end up still paying $180 for this? I had a coupon!"

It is not starvation tactics to compete with the BBs, nor is it "low cost budget framer stuff". I see it as good business to be competitive within your market space.

Those photographers are going to give their money to someone for mats. I may someday be able to turn stuff like that away in favor of work that garners better margins, but today I am not gonna turn my nose up at it.
 
There is a lot of great points in this thread and everyone is correct in their views.

Having said that, keep in the back of your mind the point that Whynot is making.

I too started out in framing competing on price. As times changed and my skill levels improved I bumped up the quality of my offerings to my customers. There was resistance. In the area that I was in I became the 'go to guy' for difficult or valued work that other framers couldn't or wouldn't do. It took years to change the image from 'cheap' to 'quality'.

I'm not saying don't do the mats. By all means if you are turning a buck, do it.

Just keep Cornel's advice in your pocket and weigh it against business ideas that you would like to try. He is making a very solid point.
 
Jerry: You are correct, I have not expressed a response to Cornell's input. His point is very valid. I certainly don't want to get the rep as only a budget framer, and my time might be better spent ensuring that I know my craft down to the smallest detail.

I am doing things that my business sense and experience tell me are right - sound right, and feel right in my gut. But I am still completely new to this market...it is my first retail store...and experience in business or not, I have to admit that I could be just totally whacked... So I posted for feedback.

I am a little intimidated here as I have drawn the attention of two of the most knowledgeable and successful people in the industry with this little topic and here I am popping off sounding like I know something. I responded to Bob because I have actually met him. :P

I have set my price points to levels that I think I can live within and thrive, and the response to my message of service, quality, AND price from the few folks that have come into my shop in the first week (oh God that sounds stupid!) are good...I should just shut up now.

I will close on a positive note. Today, even though closed, I took in a $700 framing job (um, yay me!)...the lady had come from a BB, saw me go into my shop, and came knocking. She was unhappy with the price and the service she received. She left my shop quite happy and now I have a few pieces to frame this week.

Thank you all for your input here. You people are great! :beer:
 
I admire Cornel and his product.It is fairly unique. But, how many of us carry his line?

Not to denigrate his line at all, but how many framers frequent this forum? Do even 10% carry Cornel?

His product is superb, but to a rarified air clientele

Let's examine a wholesale vendor that most use and would be considered to have some very great high end lines like Versailles, Antica, Johnathan Adler, Sevilla

They also carry OEM metal, American Classics, Tribeca

Suede mats, Fabric mats and paper mats

Museum Glass, Perfectvue and 2mm reg glass

8ply rag and cardboard

Anyone not deal with them because they carry paper mats or do you just buy the products that you need or want.

I think we are a lot like consumers, too. We buy from whom we like, who is convinent and who has good prices.
 
Who is the author of Cornell's posts? I don't think I have ever understood or agreed with him quite so much.

Personally, don't have any problem with this idea at all. It’s actually on my list of things to do with my ever growing stack of matboards. My scrap collection is growing wildly out of control.

However I will do this on MY TERMS and not as a futile effort to put a BB out of business by capturing their cheapest customers first! There isn't a chance in you-know-where that I would be buying boards just for this or promising colors or over-investing in such an idea with such a limited profitability in even the most ideal settings.

Any second of the day you can buy 200 5x7 mats, 50 8x10s, or 20 11x14s for 9.99 plus about $10 shipping. That’s $1 a piece for 11x14s and yet most lots go completely unsold. It wouldn't be a stretch to say they can't even give these things away. I don't care what the BB is offering or for what price, I do know this product doesn’t make even a tiny dent into their bottom line and it won't yours. To cut 200 5x7s would have to take 1/2 an afternoon. FOR $9!!!!!!!!! No way!

It could be an ok way to round out your offerings though. I am just cautious as to how many resources I put into this. It could be wasted quickly.
 
As happens all too regularly, a thread starts with a simple question and turns into a lifestyle change proposition

Retail has many symbiotic relationships in product

and, everything doesn't have to be Black and White
 
FrameMakers said:
Jessica, Thanks for the information. I have been in the back room chopping and joining ready-made frames this week. More of a cleaning up process then a needing to sell ready-mades thing.

What sizes of RM frames sold the best?
Click to expand...

11x14 and 16x20 sold the best. 11x14 for 8x10s, even though the mat margins arent even and the 16x20 for a lot of odd sized things.

hope that helps.
 
Jay H said:
Who is the author of Cornell's posts? I don't think I have ever understood or agreed with him quite so much.
Click to expand...

Jay,

It's still the same old author but, if you remember one of Tom's remarks on me, I really struggle a lot when posting in here. My English being used like a wooden leg, I can't dance and act with grace and precision. Sometimes, when I really care, I spend way too many hours to hone a few lines and then my thoughts may come across clearer. Hope you didn't believe that my brains were so mushy and my ideas so vague as my posts appear to be. However, I wouldn't blame you for lack of logic if you did, because I'm used to get myself embarrassed when, only a few hours or days apart, revisiting some of my writings, I’m getting shocked at how far from the intended target my own words led me. :)
 
Cornel: I for one thank you for the time you spent posting in my topic. Your insight is appreciated, and even though we don't see eye to eye on this subject, your points are valid and valued. :)
 
I've never had much difficulty understanding Cornel's message. Just because his English is not that polished, often, his ideas are

Not agreeing shouldn't mean not understanding
 
Verdaccio said:
While, it is certainly about turning a few extra dollars into my pockets..
Click to expand...

Ya Think?

I'd be surprised thats true. Chalk me up as being totally behind Cornell on this one.

Have ya done the math. Are you getting your shop rate for your CMC? If you aren't, why do you have one? Shop rates should be stuck to - of course you are turning some volume so you don't need to charge regular rates for the mattes, but who is going to pay for your labour, you wearing out your machine, using up slip sheets & blades etc etc. What about machine depreciation - I don't think its as good as it sounds. If you are doing it for advertising, figure the money you are discounting and see if it can be better used! Do the Math based on your machine depreciation.

(I confess I havn't read every word of this thread, hope I havn't missed something)
 
It sounds like you had your mind made up before asking. So then, GO FOR IT!

Don't forget to factor into your prices waste, bad mat board, goofs, having to do your own outside edge cutting, damage when mishandled by customers, shipment costs for deliveries (if indicated), etc., etc. Oh, and the electricity, wear on your CMC, corner charges, and inventory space, etc., etc.

You will soon know if this is a cost effective project or not. Good luck!
 
Although I think extra revenue streams are great, have you priced out ready made mats at companies like Savage? They will come shrink wrapped and ready to sell. Priced right, you could have something there to accompany your RM frames without labor and wear and tear on the CMC. Just a thought. Right now I don't buy them because I'd rather sell custom cut mats to go with the ready made frames in the shop.
 
I mean no harm to Sherry-she's a sweetheart

But, c'mon, electricity, space, corners, etc?

Do we ever factor in to our pricing downtime, estimates that never pan out, time on the G and the electricity to run the computer?

Pretty much when you open the doors in the morning, you can kiss that expense money as spent. The key is to sell enough every day to cover those expenses

And, some folks think I track data too carefully
 
Bob - I'm sure glad you mean no harm!

And trust me when I say, I'm NO accountant and certainly my experience cannot compare to yours.......not by a long shot.......

I've been told by some I trust - and in some framing classes as well - that such costs: i.e. electricity, square footage (space), CMC corner charges (if that is the case), wear/tear on equipment (in this case, a CMC), etc., etc. is overhead. SOMEBODY pays for this!! Well, let me say, I have no "in's" with SRP (our local electric company) that provides me with free electricity!

No, I don't calculate these figures and then add %'s to my prices - of course not! But a general "cost of doing business" gets entered some how/some way!

Where do you put these costs? And how do you pay for them?
 
If myself or an employee is looking for work - after doing everything I can to improve my business & attract & keep my customers, maybe then I'd THINK about using my CMC and $10 mattes to make $20 profit per matte. Come to think about it, it would take me time to set up, package it, throw some damaged ones out, price them, time to sell them - I don't think even then I'd think about it too long! Unless you know you have either:

someone buying them by the dozens at a time or

lots of buying traffic - like a minimum of 30 purchasers a day.

Just my opinion
 
Hey Sherry-the easy answer is to look at a cruise ship that has 500 cabins. It costs so much the minute the ship sails. So, if they "sell out" and sail at capacity, that's great.

But, suppose they have 10% cabins unsold. Don't they sell those at less than "market"?

And, how about that CMC that isn't running all day? Does it "cost" to not run?

Fixed overhead, for most of us, is pretty static. Just like that cruise ship making no sense to sail at less than full, sometimes factoring downtim for projects like the V man suggests make good sense

How often do we see a framer that goes all day without a sale?

Now, there is a waste of electricity

But, we do leave the lights on

I remember a few years back several of us "big names" were dispensing unsolicited wisdom at a trade show. One thing we universally agreed upon was to disagree with a guy that wanted to factor every v-nail
 
Bob Carter said:
Do we ever factor in to our pricing downtime, estimates that never pan out, time on the G and the electricity to run the computer?
Click to expand...

I have often wondered the same thing when "shop rate" is tossed into a pricing discussion. What difference does a shop rate make when I am opperating at 50 -75% compasity? Is this just more justification for a personal decision?

I know I don't sell photo frames often but when I do, that $20 is like free money becuase I built them during down time. To me it's recovering something from nothing. Why refuse to even offer a product that really costs nothing My labor is worth exactly $0.00 when all the framing is done and there are no customers to wait on.

I doubt I get my "shop rate" for what I charge for photo frames but it feels a bit like when you dig your hands into your winter coat in fall and find a $10. (OK Bob the rest of the world has a winter "coat" and we wear it in the winter to stay warm. Isn't today day 30 of temps over 110?)
 
In light of the recent discussion...

What if the original poster is paying a per corner fee to Wizard? Does that change the equation? Is it 5 cents each or 10 cents?

What if he bought the machine outright? Doesn't that mean it will be his dime to repair or replace it when it is worn out?

Maybe the best 'cost' solution is to rent the machine for a fixed monthly fee and use it as much as possible. That is what I do. As long as you are renting it is covered on repairs right?

I would never have offered name mats if I was paying 10 cents each corner.

Would any of you?

I'm not taking sides on the debate. I'm just adding variables to the equation.
 
Another angle...

In retail we often figure sales per square foot. After all, we are paying rent on each square foot. Are we using every square foot of our space most efficiently? If you are dedicating "X" number of feet to show and sell ready made mats, you have to ask yourself if there is a better, more productive use of that precious floor area.

Perhaps some gift items, or sculpture, or fine art prints...something with a higher profit margin?

I for one, have never figured out how to sell ready made mats. In the "custom" framing business, there are very few pieces that walk through the door that are standard sizes. Even in the photography world, there are dozens of sizes. 2x3,4x5,5x7,3x5,8x10, 8 1/2x11.......it never ends.

You want an 8x10 mat with a 5x7 opening? Thats CUSTOM and I'll pick up a piece of that scrap matboard and cut you one on the spot, right there, while you watch my latest, state of the art, wiz bang, computerized mat cutter do it's magic. 25 cents for the mat, $4.75 for the show.

And my gallery isn't cluttered with bins of mat scraps with holes cut in them.
 
Jerry-That's exactly what I mean about counting every v-nail

Let's take a quick poll for every CMC user

Q: How many lease a CMC that includes a preset number of "free" corners?

A: Probably most

Q: How many ever buy "extra" corners

A: Maybe one or two

Q: How many have more unused corners from months past than the national debt of Honduras

A: Most everyone

We can go crazy over-analyzing "variables"

Bottom line: Try it. Run a simple little test. What can it hurt? See if it works
 
I am glad that this topic has generated such great discussion!

Here are a couple of the readymade frames I put together from some scrap. Sold the Le Cirque one yesterday.

readymade001.jpg


I have found an old wood Coke box that I am going to put some readymade mats into - various sizes.

I agree that when your shop is idle, shop rate goes out the window.

Kirstie, I have requested a catalog from Savage. :)
 
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