Air line dryer problem

JWB9999999

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Posts
1,841
Loc
Meridian, MS
Ok, that's a misleading title. I'm sure my air line dryer isn't the problem, it's the person who installed it with the problem (errr, that would be me).

After visiting Warren Tucker in his shop last summer, I saw his setup with airline dryers for his compressed air around the shop. I thought it was a great idea, so I bought a craftsman air line dryer for my craftsman compressor and installed it between the compressor and the airline that goes to the rest of the shop.

Obviously I'm an idiot though because not one drop of water has ever entered the thing! And now I have an issue with water in one of my air lines in the shop.

Can anyone tell me what it is that I've not done? Nothing collects in it. Air passes through the top part for sure, since it's between the compressor and the line. Am I missing a filter? Is there something that needs turning (off/on)? I mean, it's a simple item, but it came with no instructions for use.
 
Good question!

I have a dryer that is part of the air regulator, and it seldom has water or oil in it ... but most of my air pipe is copper, and at the point where it connects to the compressor, there is a "drop" pipe with a valve. There is another "drop" pipe at the junction where the air goes from the basement to the 1st floor. Those both collect moisture, probably due to it condensing on the cold walls of the pipe, then running into the drop pipes. There is about 20 feet of copper before the regulator, which is near the point of use.

I just went downstairs and opened both valves; probably a 1/4 cup of water between them.

?? the air has to cool for the moisture to be removed?

Just some thoughts.
 
I attended a workshop given by Jim Burke at WCAF this year and he addressed that problem.

He recommended that you should have a large diameter pipe or hose installed prior to any drop or filter. This allows the water infused air to slow down enough to be removed from the air, otherwise it just gets pushed along until it reaches your machines or tools.


http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf
 
Think of a still. Those good ole boy's don't get likker right out of the boiler. Install your filter 10 or 12 feet down the line, slope the line slightly toward the filter. The air coming right off the compressor is warmer than the room unless you have a very large storage tank, give it a ways for the water and oil to condensate and your filter should do a better job for you. Spent the first thirty years in the service and body shop bidness, fooled around with a lot of air systems.

Jeff K
 
Let's be clear here. There is a difference between an airline DRYER and a moisture FILTER. An airline DRYER is most often installed after a filter and is used to remove the final bits of moisture for sensitive operations such as spraying lacquer or for blowing off sensitive electronic parts. A dryer usually has an internal desiccant that absorbs all final moisture and you should NOT see water/condensation in a DRYER.

A FILTER on the other hand, should collect water and be emptied often, or get one that has an auto drain that will dump water via a float in the event you forget to drain it to prevent water entering the air system.

To the OP - did you install a filter or a dryer? Or, do you have both? This is a picture of a 4 stage airline DRYER that uses desiccant. Note the closed, black bowl on the left with no drain. It is filled with desiccant. On the far right is a combination regulator/filter. Note the drain on the bottom. In the middle is another moisture filter. Note the site glass on the left - it also has a drain on the bottom.
 

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To add to what Rob and others already said, a water "filter" (I believe the more correct term is "separator") only removes the larger particles - already condensed water. To be most effective it has to be far enough away so that the air entering will not get any cooler further down the line; realistically there should be one right at every machine to be most effective.

We had drops (emptied daily) and separators (with automatic drains) in several places for many years, and still always had major trouble every summer, and problems with one of our dust collectors (which is outside) in the winter. The end of our problems did not come until we installed a system wide refrigerated air dryer. Now we don't even get any water in our drops. Yes, they're expensive (I think they start at around $750) but they work excellent and there is no fooling with replacing or "recharging" the dessicant (by definition the dessicant absorbs water until it can't hold any more; it then needs to be either replaced or dried out in a conventional oven).
 
Hmmm Looks like the item I bought is called an air line "filter". This is it here: craftsman air line filter

I'm still at a bit of a loss on what to do. Of course none of you can see how my shop is setup, but I can try to describe it a little.

I have a large standing craftsman compressor.

My compressor is kept in a small closed off storage room. In this room we store all of the artwork that customers have left which we have not yet framed. It's VERY crowded in there most of the time. The compressor is kept in a back corner, and plugged in up near the doorway. The compressed air hose coming out of the compressor also heads to the front of the room by the door, and then rises up into the ceiling. We have acoustical ceiling tiles throughout the shop. Up in the ceiling somewhere the air hose hits a splitter and is split 6 ways to power all the shop machinery.

In my storage room, I have NO wall space what so ever for attaching anything, as art is piled all the way from the floor to the ceiling around 100% of the wall area. So I connected the filter directly to the compressor, since the filter will sit up high by the top of the compressor and out of the way.

From one idea given here:
I don't actually have any space to attach a second larger hose between the compressor and the filter in order to slow the air speed down. There's just no space in the room, all the wall space is dedicated to art storage. I could possibly run an airhose directly from the compressor straight up to the ceiling, instead of first running the hose to the doorway and then up to the ceiling. That might allow me to install a second larger hose as the primary one coming out of the compressor. However that would also mean that I would probably end up with the filter being up at the ceiling and needing to get a ladder in the room to empty it (something I do rarely, as there is a LOT of artwork around and I don't want to bump any of it).

From another idea given here:
Would installing a multistage drying/filering system really work? Or maybe I should ask, is that what is really necessary? Would I still need to move it away from directly at the compressor? I actually don't think I would have enough space to attach it to the compressor, as what is pictured is so large (and its own weight might be an issue too, hanging off the compressor).

As I mentioned, the air hose coming from the compressor disappears into the ceiling and is split there. The walls in the main work area below that part of the ceiling are all also filled with "things", like matboard bins, foamcore bins, etc. But probably I could find a spot on the wall to drop a hose out of the ceiling, have it hit a dryer and/or filter unit low enough for someone to actually get to it, and then send a hose back up into the ceiling to the splitter. It sounds like this is what I will have to do IF I can figure out the proper combination of lines/dryer/filter that I really ought to be using.

I definitely appreciate all of the comments so far, and would like your thoughts on this too.
 
As I see it, your air does not have an opportunity to condense because the filter is too close to your compressor. Also, it sounds like you are using hoses to run all of your air lines, which is OK if you only require short bursts of limited air, but yields terrible air flow and does not allow the air to condense as well as copper or galvanized pipe.

Also, some hoses are only 1/4" (internal dimension) and while they may look big and beefy, restrict air flow (the CFM) and maximum PSI (pressure) possible. So while you may have a big compressor (not the storage tank, but the CFM capacity), but it is like blowing through a straw. Again, not critical for a small shop with a single use such as a fitting gun, but terrible for a shop where a CMC, V-nailer, air assisted saw, and multiple fitting stations could be in use simultaneously.

3/8" hoses should be used at a minimum, except for drops, where 1/4" coiled hoses could be used. I sure would not keep my air system powered up overnight and on weekends using hoses of any kind as my distribution system.

My shop is piped with 1-1/4" pipe (but I have a large shop) and prior to every air drop, there is a separate filter to insure that no moisture could be discharged when blowing off art.

You need to install a drop downstream from your compressor, in a location that is visible and accessible so you can see the water and empty the bowl but prior to areas where the air is being used. The air coming from the compressor needs to cool and condense so the water can be trapped. Right now it is blowing by the filter because it is still warm and steamy.

I would also suggest a separate filter prior to critical drops (where you have an air hose used to blow off artwork or at your fitting station(s). At the repair shop where I have my cameras serviced, they use a desiccant filter because it is critical that they blow only dry air onto the cameras they are servicing. There are wall mounting brackets to allow for the filter to be secured to the wall and provide support for the drop coming from the filter.

I think it is unnecessary in a framing/fitting situation, but one certainly could not be faulted for having one. (A desiccant filter) - However, a moisture filter(s) is an absolute must.

To open a new can of worms, for machinery that uses a piston to drive the machinery, (such as my CTD D45 AX), an inline lubricator should be installed after the moisture filter but prior to where the air enters the machine. The oil in the lubricator needs to be monitored to confirm that every so many strokes of the machine, a drop of lubricant is dispersed into the air feeding the specific machine.
Most machines make use of a regulator (for the specific machine), followed by a moisture filter, followed by an inline lubricator. It is critical that this air supply be isolated from your general air supply so that oil is NOT introduced into your general air supply.
 
Whoa! I just re-read your last post. So you have an air hose coming from an exposed compressor that is discharging air and heat from the compression process in a closet piled floor to ceiling with customer goods? How often do you drain the tank on the compressor? Is it even accessible? And, if you are draining it on a regular basis, you are walking through a closet piled floor to ceiling of customer goods with a jar of oily water on a regular basis?

Anyone else see something seriously wrong with this picture?

What happens if the air hose somehow breaks loose, or blows out? Sort of whips around the room spraying air and whacking things?

Don't you think there are temperature variations caused in the room (and vibrations) by the running compressor? From the picture, it appears this compressor has wheels. Have you bolted it to the floor or strapped it to a wall? Is it plugged directly into a wall outlet or are you running an extension cord? And if so, what gauge and length?

What happens if the compressor blows up? Overheats and starts a fire?

Has OSHA ever visited your shop? Has your workers comp carrier ever done an inspection?

No disrespect intended, but me thinks you have larger problems than moisture!
 
3/8" hoses should be used at a minimum, except for drops, where 1/4" coiled hoses could be used. I sure would not keep my air system powered up overnight and on weekends using hoses of any kind as my distribution system.

We only have it powered up during the day. We turn off the equipment each night.


My shop is piped with 1-1/4" pipe (but I have a large shop) and prior to every air drop, there is a separate filter to insure that no moisture could be discharged when blowing off art.

I would also suggest a separate filter prior to critical drops (where you have an air hose used to blow off artwork or at your fitting station(s).

I believe most of my hoses are 3/8" that are dsitributing the air, until you get to the fitting stations which are using 1/4" tubing. The problem here with filters is that my tubing drops from the ceiling into the middles of a couple of rooms (with one exception). The only place this would be possible would be with my CMC, as it is by a wall.

So you have an air hose coming from an exposed compressor that is discharging air and heat from the compression process in a closet piled floor to ceiling with customer goods? How often do you drain the tank on the compressor? Is it even accessible? And, if you are draining it on a regular basis, you are walking through a closet piled floor to ceiling of customer goods with a jar of oily water on a regular basis?

Yes. I drained the tank yesterday. I'd say I drain it about once a year. It is accesible as the room is long and narrow, but we keep a pathway clear from front to back. We have to be able to get to the customer work, and we have to be able to get to the compressor. The tank has wheels, so I roll it outside to drain it. No oily water around customer work.

What happens if the air hose somehow breaks loose, or blows out? Sort of whips around the room spraying air and whacking things?

Not likely to happen, but I can't say impossible. The hoses we use usually develop pinhole leaks and have to be replaced. I have never seen a catastophic hose failure, but it could be possible. As for the hose whipping around the room should there be such a failure, it cannot. First, we de-pressurize the compressor every day when closing. The lines have very little pressure left in them at night. Second, during the day when the lines are full of pressure, well the line in the room with the artwork is actually tied to metal racks every few feet. Should a hose completely burst in two, there's not a lot of hose that can move. Third, even if a foot of the hose were to become forcefully mobile, we package about 95% of our artwork in padded coverings or boxes which would protect it. All of this reduces the likelihood of hurting a customer's artwork via a hose failure to near zero.

Don't you think there are temperature variations caused in the room (and vibrations) by the running compressor? From the picture, it appears this compressor has wheels. Have you bolted it to the floor or strapped it to a wall? Is it plugged directly into a wall outlet or are you running an extension cord? And if so, what gauge and length?

Temperture variations, definitely. And humidity. We are in and out of that room all day long, but it is not air conditionned. It's usually warmer or colder than the rest of the shop. Vibrations are reduced because the floor is carpeted and the bottom of the compressor has rubber pads on it. The compressor is not bolted or strapped to anything and I don't see why I would need to. We do not use an extension cord.

What happens if the compressor blows up? Overheats and starts a fire?

The same thing that happens when yours does: the shop burns down! :shutup: Ok, that was a little bit glib, but I can't take that question very seriously. I've never seen a shop of any kind that wouldn't suffer if it caught on fire. We are all dealing with paper and wood products that are definitely flammable. Every shop that uses electicity has a risk of fire due to electrical failure. Every electrical machine in your shop, including your computers, could burn the place down. Do you make sure no customer work is in a place where, if one of them caught fire at night, nothing would happen to that work?

For me, I actually have some protection for artwork in my shop, more than ANY other shop that I've ever seen. The room with the compressor and the artwork is called "the vault". It used to BE a vault. The walls are lined with concrete blocks all the way to the roof, and the door is made out of steel. If there were a fire in my shop somewhere, that room would suffer the least, and offer the most protection to my customer's art.

Our compressor makes a huge amount of noise when it's running, it can't be in any other room in the shop. And even if we replaced it with one of those quiet ones, there's no physical space for one somewhere else.

I feel pretty good about my setup, Rob. :)

Except for the danged water getting in my air hoses. :(
 
Tank should be drained weekly. I also have a CTD D45AX that has an adjustable oiling system. I use 1 compressor to power the saw and Vnailer and another small quiet compressor to power the fitting guns and air guns to blow off artwork. I use an air and oil filter on the fitting compressor and an extra water filter on the air gun right at the end of the hose just to make sure it doesn't spit water on the artwork. Always turn off the compressors at the end of the day! Murphey's Law says that if your system springs an air leak, it will be in the middle of the night and your compressor will run non stop trying to make up the pressure drop until it overheats or seizes. I've also seen that your air lines should be run as a loop with a drain at a low spot rather than a straight line with a dead end.
 
Do you make sure no customer work is in a place where, if one of them caught fire at night, nothing would happen to that work? :(

NO customer work in our shop is located in close proximity to any machinery at all. All of our machinery (compressor - bolted down), saws, dust collection, is is a completely separate room from our fitting and storage areas.

If I had your situation, I would build a small wall to isolate the compressor. I think you are dismissing a serious liability situation that is easily rectifiable. You have customer goods in a confined space with a piece of machinery that has the potential to do serious harm.
 
I value your opinion, Rob. No place is perfect. I don't have room for any kind of wall around it where it is. But I am working on emptying out a clearance room in the back, and if I get really ambitious, perhaps I could look at re-routing my air system once (if?) I have some space back there and some time to worry with it. But it'd also require an investment in a new, quiet compressor, and I'd worry about the public accessibility of that space (the room is open to the public, a kid could get in there and play with it). I've noted compressor location as something to think about in the future. :)
 
What about putting a timer on the power supply so there is no chance it could run all night?
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
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