Advice on 24" printers....

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leviegray

leviegray

True Grumbler
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
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97
Loc
Molokai, Hawaii
Aloha all

I am considering purchasing a 24" printer to use in my shop and wonder if anybody has recommendations on a good/ affordable brand and model to buy.
Any experiences with used vs new equipment?


Also interested in experiences/ wisdom/ advice on printing in house. What's the learning curve like? Any common pitfalls? Any good learning resources?

What do you charge and what are your costs?

Thanks !

Aloha

Levie :icon21:
 
Epson 7880. $2995 retail. Most of the time this is drop shipped with no freight charges, but you being in paradise might change that. Epson often has rebates going on these that can save you several hundred dollars.

I have used Epson printers for 7 years with little to no problems.

Canon and HP now offer printers in the range. I have never used them so can not comment on their quality.

Learning curve can be minimal or mega depending on what you want to do with your printer. If you use Epson branded papers or canvas, they supply good profiles for them. When you start venturing off into other manufactures media, you need to make sure they have profiles available.

ICC profiles are what tell your printer what colors and amount of ink to lay down. It is kind of like a translator with each paper being a different dialect of a different one that you are speaking.

Dave
 
Thanks Dave!

I have heard good things about the Epson too!

Anyone have any experience with the HP Designjet 130. A lot less money but I wonder if that is because there is a lot less machine...? Would sitll welcome any other feedback about costs/ prices as well as well as any practical lessons learned.

Aloha

Levie
 
We bought the Epson 4880 at the PPFA show in Vegas this year, and have been absolutely amazed by the quality of the output. It uses archival K3 inks. This is the same as the ones recommended above, but can only go 17" wide (by up to 500" long). Looking back, I wish we purchased a wider one. Most of the time 17" is fine.

I also recommend getting the stand made for it. You can store a LOT of things under the printer. (we have ink carts, a spare tank, manuals, and 6 rolls of paper under there; with room to spare)

:thumbsup:Epson
 
Here is something it took me a couple of years to figure out (I have an Epson 9800.)

Use flat sheet paper and avoid roll paper. The heavier the better. I use Ultra-Smooth Fine Art Paper unless the customer insists on the cheapest. I am going to stop carrying the roll paper all together soon. Getting it flat is difficult (I never mount anything) The Ultra-smooth in 325gsm weight looks and feels great and does not require any mounting to stay flat. It makes all the difference.
 
Tim, never thought about it. I use mostly rolled papers and canvas, but the Hahn Photo Rag is sheets. I guess it all depends on what you are printing. I do a lot for photographers that always want it mounted.

I primarily print on Premium Luster, Enhanced Matte, Canvas and Hahn Photo Rag.

Dave
 
It is interesting, now that printmakers and photographers are using the same machine we still have different standards for what 'looks right.' Photographers have always mounted their work, printmakers always hinged.

Oh, come to think of it, I probably prefer not to mount because I don't own a machine to do it. So I have developed an 'aesthetic' standard to match my capabilities.

I do love the look of the thick flat fine-art paper, though.
 
leviegray said:
Anyone have any experienc with this model? It is 1/3 the cost of the Epson and Canon...?????

:kaffeetrinker_2:
Aloha
Levie
Click to expand...

If it's 1/3 the cost, it's not going to be able to do near the things the Epson or Canon can do. IMO

I've got an Epson 4800 which does up to 17" wide, and a Epson 7800 which will do up to 24".
You have to not only look at the price of the hardware, but the cost of inks and papers, and ease of use.
A cheaper machine will probably not use roll paper, and probably not have large ink cartridges.
I'm not a tech person, but I can use the Epson's to print.

To get started these are some things I think you will need.

Epson 7800 printer $2,400.00
A couple rolls of paper. Premium Luster, and enhanced Matte $100.00 each
An extra set of inks. 8 different cartridges at $85.00 each.
An Imac 20 to run the printer. $1,600.00
Some type of RIP to interface between the computer and printer $500.00
CS3 Photo Shop $1,200.00

As you can see, to get started it's a little bit of an investment.
I print all my own photos, and several artists Giclee's for them.
 
Bill,

Why do you use a RIP program? What does it do for you that Photoshop will not besides print huge?

Photoshop CS3 is about $650, and you can get it for about 1/3 of that if you are a student.

Epson is the way to go if you ask me. They design for real people. I don't have any experience of Canon, but HP just makes weird software choices. I have never been disappointed with anything Epson I have ever bought. Easy to use and durable.
 
timquinn said:
Bill,

Why do you use a RIP program? What does it do for you that Photoshop will not besides print huge?

Photoshop CS3 is about $650, and you can get it for about 1/3 of that if you are a student.

Epson is the way to go if you ask me. They design for real people. I don't have any experience of Canon, but HP just makes weird software choices. I have never been disappointed with anything Epson I have ever bought. Easy to use and durable.
Click to expand...

I'm not a techie, but it's my understanding the RIP (I use one from Colorburst) aids in the managing of print jobs.
The guy who prints for me loves the ease of use with the RIP.

Here is something I got off their website.

Job Manager
ColorBurst offers Job Management normally only seen in much more expensive RIP applications. Files and folders can be dropped directly into the ColorBurst Job Manager, opened from the ColorBurst File Open menu, placed or saved to the optional Hot Folder, or even dropped on the ColorBurst application icon. Jobs can be reordered, deleted, or placed on hold to be processed later. The ColorBurst Job Manager can be used to create RTL files for reprinting in the future without having to re-RIP them. Dragging RTL files into the Job List will send them to the printer immediately, saving processing time and guaranteeing a perfect match to the first job.
 
Ooh, that last thing would come in handy. Thanks for the info

I should have pointed out that education discounts are also available to teachers and staff.
 
leviegray said:
Thanks for the insights Bill... Mind sharing how much you charge for the printing you do? And do you have an estimate of what it costs you for materials?
Aloha
Levie :o
Click to expand...

I mostly print my own photos. I do Giclee's of original art for a few artists, but not that much.

I would call around your area, and ask what they charge for printing Giclee's.

I can justify the expense of the machines and materials, because I have printed hundreds of my photos with them.
Plus, I have total control over size, print color and quality.
 
I am convinced that Epson paper is the worst - it delaminates quicker than any other paper - just get it mounted to wood say, sand the bevel edge & it commes right off - especially in time - avoid it!
 
HB said:
I am convinced that Epson paper is the worst - it delaminates quicker than any other paper - just get it mounted to wood say, sand the bevel edge & it commes right off - especially in time - avoid it!
Click to expand...

What are you doing with this? Mounting to wood?

I have used epson papers for 8 years and have NEVER had an issue of the prints delaminating. I use mostly speedmount to mount them.

Dave
 
FrameMakers said:
What are you doing with this? Mounting to wood?

I have used epson papers for 8 years and have NEVER had an issue of the prints delaminating. I use mostly speedmount to mount them.

Dave
Click to expand...

Plaquemounting - in fact the nearest plaquemounting service will not accept Epson papers at all!!

maybe you use a different type of Epson paper - I have samples on my wall at home of delaminating.
 
OK, never used a plaque mount.
 
HB said:
I am convinced that Epson paper is the worst - it delaminates quicker than any other paper - just get it mounted to wood say, sand the bevel edge & it commes right off - especially in time - avoid it!
Click to expand...

Besides mounting to wood, (never done it, so I can't respond) Epson papers get rave reviews from most printers.

I mount all my Epson printed photos on foamboard, and have had no issues at all.
 
Epson is the way to go. I own the 9800 and the 4800. We have printed over 2000 pieces since October with 3 square foot average size.

HP owners have me print the stuff that needs to be true art quality. Ther is almost no learning curve involved in a straight print job from digital files. Everything about it is the best.

Many people in this area that have bought others brands both more and less expensive than the Epson have told me they wish they had gone with Epson but now they are stuck with what they got.

As far as cost it will vary by model, paper etc. I use primarily Enhanced mat which is double weight paper. On my 9800 w/ 220ml ink cartridges and 100' roll paper my material cost is 85 cents per square foot and I charge $5 per square foot.

I only use Epson paper and ink and am thrilled EVERY time I print a piece. I have only wasted about a dozen pieces so far.

Good luck and go Epson.
 
"On my 9800 w/ 220ml ink cartridges and 100' roll paper my material cost is 85 cents per square foot and I charge $5 per square foot."

Wow, I am charging $18-20 a square and wasn't sure I was making any money. My price is a competitive price by the way. I do have very low volume, not a main source of income at all. I bought the printer for my work and decided to offer the service.

Do you include all the ink used in head cleanings? I had read that ink alone costs $3-4 dollars a square foot. Enhanced Matte paper costs about 33 cents a square for me, fine art paper about $1.30. Have a look in your maintenance tank and consider the cost of all that ink.

I find your information liberating. Thanks for posting it. Now I am going to go make some prints . . .
 
Tim, I have talked to Jeff extensively about this. (BTW he used to be an employee of mine before he moved and opened his own place)

That is the cost of materials, all ink and paper over a large run of prints. It is based on 720x720 printing on enhanced matte paper.
One other thing to remember is that when most people post costs, they are talking full retail $$$. I am paying $82 for a 220 cart and $114 for a 44" roll of Enhanced matte.
Dave
 
FrameMakers said:
Tim, I have talked to Jeff extensively about this. (BTW he used to be an employee of mine before he moved and opened his own place)

That is the cost of materials, all ink and paper over a large run of prints. It is based on 720x720 printing on enhanced matte paper.
One other thing to remember is that when most people post costs, they are talking full retail $$$. I am paying $82 for a 220 cart and $114 for a 44" roll of Enhanced matte.
Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,
Where so you buy your ink cartridges and paper?
That's a little cheaper than I've been getting them for.
 
Bill,

Dave and I both use Midwest Photo Exchange in Columbus, Oh.

They offer free shipping on material orders of $75 or more.

As far as ink cost you will find that each paper uses different amounts of ink for coverage. Canvas, Velvet and Textured Fine Art paper use quite a bit more ink.
 
More questions...

Hey you guys

Thanks for all the great suggestions/ feedback and dialogue! It is really helping me to get up to speed in this area and learn what I need to learn- ( if that makes any sense...).

Now I have some new questions.

Does anyone have any experience with the Canon IPF 6100? Can you give me any comparison of how it compares with the Epson 7880. ( I have discovered that Canon has a promotion right now for printer for 2995 then 500 discount if you have a Epson 13" or larger printer and then 500 credit for print medium... or I can get an Epson 7880 for the same price with three rolls of print medium and then can get a 300 credit if I have a 3000/4000/or 5000 printer ) After your advice I am steering clear of the HP 130 but am now weighing the differences between the Canon & Epson.

Also the sales guy I have been talking to is telling me that I don't need a RIP if I am printing from photoshop and also that he can give me good profiles which will allow me to use non- Epson or Canon print medium with either of these printers.

Any comments/ info regarding this? esp regarding durability and support...

Any good recommendations on training / learning resources to expand my photoshop skills?

Thanks!

non- related- Jeff How is your mom doing?

Aloha

Levie
 
Levie,

Mom is doing well. She's in a nursing home for some rehab but she is home where her friends and family pop in constantly.

As far as the deals of the day in printing, I ended up w/ 2 printers in one purchase. By buying both printers I qualified for every kind of discount they could think up. I got the 9800 Pro, 4800 Pro, ink and paper all for the MSRP of the 9800 alone. Based on MSRP The 4800 and about $2000 in supplies were free. Cost $6000 delivered after rebates.

I don't use RIP software but it would make multi-image printing easier to learn. In Photoshop, a straight print job is a snap. Open, Size and Print. The printer options boxes take one evening to figure out so you don't add several extra steps but be sure to print many items each day for several days to remember.

I don't know what you would like to print on that Epson doesn't make but here's my take on this issue:


  1. Epson supplies can be purchased fairly inexpensively from the source we use.
  2. Don't ever buy ink that is not from your printers manufacturer, it will void your warranty and cause many other problems.
  3. I have no personal experience with other printers but have heard complaints from their owners.
  4. I DO NOT HAVE ONE BAD THING TO SAY ABOUT EPSON PRINTERS AFTER THOUSAND OF PRINTS.
It's just like printing money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
leviegray said:
Aloha all

I am considering purchasing a 24" printer to use in my shop and wonder if anybody has recommendations on a good/ affordable brand and model to buy.
Any experiences with used vs new equipment?


Also interested in experiences/ wisdom/ advice on printing in house. What's the learning curve like? Any common pitfalls? Any good learning resources?

What do you charge and what are your costs?

Thanks !

Aloha

Levie :icon21:
Click to expand...

Ah! Finally a question I can give some advice on. Being a photographer, I pretty much read more than post here. :)

You never in the entire thread said exactly what you wanted the printer to do... so i will assume produce photographic prints. If you need it for other reasons, my advice won't amount to much.

Epson has pretty much ruled the marketplace now for years in the large format photographic print market. There is no doubt that they produce stunning results.

But they have some drawbacks too. The major one for me is that switching from matt black to gloss/satin black (i.e., switching from matt to satin paper) is going to cost you 75 bucks as the black ink lines have to be purged for each switch.

Epson has not addressed this HUGE drawback until recently and then only in the largest printer in their line, the 11880.

Also, Epson printers are notorious for clogging. If you keep one in operation day in and day out, the clogging issues seem to be minimized. I have two Epson doorstops in my storage unit now. Not worth having the heads changed as they are not user replaceable and the service charges are outrageous.

HP has entered the fray with the Z3100 series and they are nice printers. i have no personal experience with them but know some photographers that have them and they are happy. They have a gloss optimizer coating cartridge and that greatly reduces, eliminates really, metamerism and produces a great finish.

Now to Canon... the new kids on the block. And they have some real winners. Of the three manufacturers, I feel they offer the best bang for the buck out there. Lower operating costs than Epsons, lower purchase price than HP.

I researched printers for a long time before going with a Canon large format unit. If you are doing high volume printing, you will appreciate the low unit costs per square foot of surface printed. And no stupid ink wasting (what WAS Epson thinking?) when you change paper types. just switch and go. The heads are set up to have both inks pumped in with zero waste. The heads are user replaceable and clogging is a non-issue.

Right now on the Canon Wiki someone posted (today) that Shades Of Paper are having a blowout on x100 series Canons (5100, 6100, 8100, etc.) The 6100 is the 24" model and it was posted as being $2k with free delivery. Warning: Understatement To Follow: That is a good price.

My recommendation, for what it is worth, is to really check out the Canon line.

Tom
 
I have a 24" Epson and a 42" HP printer.

They are both great printers. The HP is a workhorse and can set idle for a month with no major clogging issues. It uses 680 ml. ink carts and is very economical to operate. I use it for pop display printing and banners and posters, etc. where quality is not as much of an issue, although it is still pretty good quality.

The Epson uses 220 ml. carts and is more costly to operate but does a fantastic job on higher end printing like fine art and high quality photos, etc. It does not like to sit idle for many days or it will clog.

There is a way to switch black inks from photo to mat and visa versa using less ink. You have to trick the printer but it only uses a fraction of the ink. You print a solid black print afterwards to switch the inks and it is much less expensive and puts less ink in the maintenance tank. The maintenance tank can be reset rather than replaced also if it is not full when it says it is.

A rip is nice but not a necessity if you have photo shop.
Randy
 
Media recommendations

OK

I think I am moving closer to a decision.

I have found a deal for a Canon IPF 6100 for 2495 with a 500 rebate bringing it to 1995 and a 610 credit towards print media. The price and the fact that it has both black inks and prints up to three times faster than the Epson and has an automatic head cleaning program when it is not in use for longer periods are all pulling pretty hard.... I am still a little reluctant to give up Epson's reputation for reliability, larger optional cartriges - and that they too are offering three free rolls of any media right now...

Which brings me to questions about media.

First of all- What would be a good basic configuration of media to cover the most possible customer needs/requests in the beginning . If you could recommend three rolls to initially stock a small startup like mine what would they be?

Also any comments about difficulties with availibility for either Epson or Canon print media or cartriges? Any experience with warranty support or service for either company?

Also roughly how many prints do you make before needing to replace cartriges?

Thanks!

Aloha

Levie :kaffeetrinker_2:
 
leviegray said:
OK

First of all- What would be a good basic configuration of media to cover the most possible customer needs/requests in the beginning . If you could recommend three rolls to initially stock a small startup like mine what would they be?

Also any comments about difficulties with availibility for either Epson or Canon print media or cartriges? Any experience with warranty support or service for either company?

Also roughly how many prints do you make before needing to replace cartriges?

Levie :kaffeetrinker_2:
Click to expand...

Supplies can be found for these everywhere that professional supplies are sold. I use Midwest when 2 days is soon enough. Somtimes I need it the next day with ground shipping so I pay a couple dollars more to get it from a closer supplier (no overnite air charges).

As far as how soon something will run dry, that depends on size and paper used. I printed over 100 smaller pieces before replacing a crtridge.

As far as paper choice, I love Enhanced Matte for 95% of my printing needs. I have customers ask for glossy photos and I lay a piece of glass over the matte print and now they see it can be whatever they want based on glass choice. This paper seems to use less ink than others.
 
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