Help Advice for Opening My First Shop

CassandraZ

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Posts
12
Loc
Syracuse, NY
I'm about to open my own frame shop and I could really use some advise. I have a few specific questions, but any knowledge is appreciated!
1. Where should I look for a design counter?
2. What is the best computer program? I've only used FullCalc and am currently doing orders on paper...which takes too long and doesn't seem very professional.
3. Any good methods for determining pricing?

I look forward to what people have to say!
 
CONGRATULATIONS!!

Don't get discouraged with the lack of responses, it's always slow on Sunday.

We just opened in June, so I know what you are going through and I'm glad to help any way I can.

1. - Design Counter ... I would check Craigslist, I like SearchTempest to look in all the areas around you not one city at a time. That is a lot of good used stuff on the market. Many people have built their own.

We have one from a The Great Frame Up. I like it, but the top is black and I don't like this for taking photos for my visualization software. We hung a large mirror on the front of it and it really dresses it up. BUT, no one sees the mirror, so I think we are going to be moving it.

2. - Program ... I am a Lifesaver user. I like it and that's how I do number 3 as well. I also enjoy the FrameVue visualization software. Customers find it impressive and it helps them make decisions.

What else??
 
1. Just screw together some two by fours--on casters!--and a sheet or two of plywood and cover it with foamcore and you are good to go for a design table or two! The foamcore is cheap to replace periodically when it gets dirty.

2. Hand-writing order slips is WAY faster and easier than using any of the computer based stuff. You just write it and don't have to parse through field after field of computer stuff.

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA
 
3. Look to your suppliers for pricing guidelines--particularly Larson-Juhl. They have several charts for retail pricing.

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA
 
I have used LifeSaver in the past but if you want a price guide to get started I have the Larson-Juhl price guide and can forward it to you in an email if you like.
If you PM me with your email address I will send it to you.
Larson used to include the price guide in their catalogue, but now you have to ask for it. You can get it from your Larson rep also.
 
1. Build your own counter. Not hard to do. There are some books from the PPFA store for building tables and bins.

2. I use EzFramer from ezframer.com. It's cheap and a monthly subscription. Has worked well for me. You're right, hand written orders seem unprofessional. A program will also help you make a profit.

3. You need to crunch your own numbers and find out what you need to make to stay in business. Compare that with other shops in your area. I suggest joining PPFA and looking at some of their webinars on the subject.
 
Cassandra, you may want to spend a few dollars and go to the upcoming frame show in Las Vegas.

You'll get to see all the vendors for everything you'll need and pick the brain of many people in the industry.

There are classes for anything you might need help in too.
 
I thought of another question:
What is everyone using to package up the finished product?
The shop I work for now uses cardboard corners that slide on and clear plastic bags. I'm not sure I love the corners.
 
I thought of another question:
What is everyone using to package up the finished product?
The shop I work for now uses cardboard corners that slide on and clear plastic bags. I'm not sure I love the corners.
That's what I do.

If you wrap the piece in kraft paper, then you'll have to open it for them to inspect it when they pick it up. With the plastic bags, they can see their job without having to open up the packaging.

What don't you like about the cardboard corners?
 
I gotta say I agree with Wendy.

The table doesn't have to be so fancy, it's what you design on it that counts. I've used Point of Sale software and Lifesaver and although they're good for calculating stuff like how much moulding you'll need, I prefer pen and paper.
 
I feel like they run the risk of scratching the finish of some of the mouldings. Especially when the customers take them off at home.

I don't like the cardboard corners either.
I like to use the bubble wrap corners from Uline. I put the corners on and then wrap the frame with paper or plastic around the bubble wrap corners.
They are available in 3 different sizes and come on a tear off roll.
When I work on frames that have delicate finishes such as black lacquers which can scratch if you look at them the wrong way, I use the bubble wrap corners as pads when I lay the frame face down on the worktable for fitting.
 
1. Just screw together some two by fours--on casters!--and a sheet or two of plywood and cover it with foamcore and you are good to go for a design table or two! The foamcore is cheap to replace periodically when it gets dirty.

2. Hand-writing order slips is WAY faster and easier than using any of the computer based stuff. You just write it and don't have to parse through field after field of computer stuff.

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA

1. Yes this sounds like a real fine "first impression" for your customer. Just slap together some 2x4's and cover with foam core:p
2. There is nothing faster than a good POS program if you're looking for accuracy, continuity in pricing, customer tracking, and overall professional appearance. You need to read the vast collection of threads on this subject.

.....but hey, the handwritten paper work order does fit in well with the 2x4 and foamcore design counter:confused:
 
For your design counter, I like to use kitchen cabinets as a base. I find that an 18" 3 drawer unit to be the most useful. Put one on each end and then slots in between for small frames waiting to be picked up. Cover the front with MDF and add some trim to snaz it up some. I use 2 layers of 3/4 MDF for the counter top and cover with Formica or even a nice linoleum.

For POS I use FrameReady and can't see going with out a POS.

There was another recent thread where we were discussing attaching a velcro fabric (frontrunner) to the walls. Inspired by others, I came up with an idea of using hollow core doors and covering them with the fabric and hanging them up with a wooden cleat. This will allow for neat finished looking panels that are light weight and can be removed without leaving a ton of damage to the walls.

Good luck with your new venture.
 
Build your own counter ( or have a carpenter do it ) The heigth is determined by your reach, etc.
Depending on size of your shop and other factors, ours is 16 ft X 40 inches and made of two 8 ft sections with 2x4 frames on casters. we have full length storage shelves about a foot off the floor under the entire 16 ft and the top surface is plywood covered with light grey formica with beveled edges. We also made a matching curved piece that goes on the end for a checkout counter with the cash register / computer and printer on that end. Be sure to finish all exposed surfaces professionally so it looks good to the customer.

We use hand written preprinted multi copy forms vs a POS. We have a unique sitiuation where the POS would not work with our art, wall decor and gift items and find the manual forms give us a better method. If we were strictly a frame shop then a POS would probably do fine.

We use plastic clear bags for all finished framed pieces ( and art also ) and wrap the corners with bubble wrap or
soft foam for those easy to scratch mouldings.

Good luck in your venture.
 
Cassandra,
I had my tables built by a handyman; 4'x8' parson style table on casters. I have two of them. Top is laminate kitchen counter top in a cream color (which to me is the most neutral)...check photo on my website to see them.

Having storage space underneath would be nice; but I do like the open airy look and no clutter (unlike the workshop) so that is a personal choice. Because they are easy to move; I can handle any size artwork (okay...almost) by rolling the two tables together. I can also handle several customers at the same time (running in between design tables, serving them at the same time) if that happens.

I don't agree on the pen and paper approach and firmly believe in a POS system. Check out Mike Labbes link for a comparison side by side. I use Specialty Soft and have never used any other, so my advise would be worthless.

I don't find the computer approach to be slow at all.
Printed quotes/invoices look more professional
All information is stored and reports can be easily printed/information easily retracted.
Quick and easy and up to date price updates (so you don't loose any money when there is a price increase)
Pricing is consistent from day to day/order to order

I would not want to be without a POS; in the end it's a time saver; if used correctly.
 
#1 reason to have a POS..... is CUSTOMERS dont argue with a POS.......
Pen and paper they might try to talk you down....
you can always fall back on ...."THE COMPUTER SAYS........... "

As far as what POS system.... theres only about a trillion threads on this....

Design counters......
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthrea...ndering-what-to-use&highlight=Design+counters

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?49377-Best-design-counter-surface&highlight=Design+counters

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?57914-Design-table-height&highlight=Design+counters

Packaging.....
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthrea...an-07-Survey&highlight=wrapping+finished+work
 
Not using a POS is silly.

Like Ylva, I use SpecialtySoft, but you need to try the demos and see which one fits your work style and tastes better.

As Ylva said, Mike Labbe has a spreadsheet with available systems and features/prices.

I had my design table built. Stained with Cherry stain and carpet installed on top. It's 18' long. Shelves and pull out panels underneath, with computer stations at either end that have storage for computers, printers, etc underneath.

You can build your own. It can be almost anything depending on the look you are trying to achieve and the space you have.

One framer I know went to a used office furniture store and bought a large conference table. Cut it in half and placed the cut off end up against the wall. Voila - two design tables that you can sit on either side of -- and, they're nice wood and look good.

I saw another that had two matching bedroom bureaus with a hollow core door screwed to the top. Covered the door with carpet, and voila, two carpet covered design tables with drawer storage and painted to match the rest of the shop.

As for wrapping finished goods ... I put them in clear plastic bags, then put the cardboard corners on over the bags. Thus the plastic bag helps protect the finish form the cardboard , yet they are still visible and relatively safe. (I'm pretty sure just about anything you can think of has been done for this!)
 
I use an inexpensive but solid wood conference table for designing. It has worked beautifully for twenty something years and I like that it's lower than counters. You can see it here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0793613093.183403.289564248093&type=1&theater

I would not even dream of pricing without a POS. NOT EVEN DREAM OF IT. I use frameready, but there are several excellent ones out there. Do some research.

I wrap in plastic bags with cardboard corners on the touchier frames on the outside of the bags and hold them in place with stretch wrap. I heart stretch wrap. It's a framer's best friend.

I also would rather open a vein than use someone else's pricing chart. Again, do your research and price according to your expenses. Suppliers DO NOT have your best interests at heart when it comes to OUR pricing. I remember when a certain "luxury" moulding company's reps went around years ago telling us it was actually sensible to price the more expensive mouldings low, low, low. I'm not saying exactly out here on an open forum, but it was nutty nutty nutty. And business suicide, as well. I would consider using the price structure of another to be one of the biggest mistakes a business like ours can make. Do your research.

edie the feelingveryopinionatedtoday goddess
 
1. Just screw together some two by fours--on casters!--and a sheet or two of plywood and cover it with foamcore and you are good to go for a design table or two! The foamcore is cheap to replace periodically when it gets dirty.

2. Hand-writing order slips is WAY faster and easier than using any of the computer based stuff. You just write it and don't have to parse through field after field of computer stuff.

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA

upon reading this my only thought is: I hope you're just giving the newbie a hard time and being sarcastic. Maybe a home based framer could get away with a front counter made of 2x4s and foam board, but not a professional in a retail store.

Also, a point of sale/computerized software system is the best investment you'll ever make if you want consistency and accuracy in orders and the ability to reference old work orders. Back when I did hand written orders I too believed I was faster than a computer, but I was kidding myself.
 
A POS is one of the best investments you can make in your business. Try the trial versions of the major players and see what works best for you. I use FrameReady and am thrilled with both the program, the updates and the people that support it.
 
Also, a point of sale/computerized software system is the best investment you'll ever make if you want consistency and accuracy in orders and the ability to reference old work orders. Back when I did hand written orders I too believed I was faster than a computer, but I was kidding myself.

I strongly agree. Doing it on the screen is considerably faster, especially when the customer wants to compare different mats, mouldings, fabrics, fillets, and glazing choices. Just wave the other one by the barcode scanner (or type in the #), and you instantly have the new price (with tax).

Price updates come in from the various vendors on a daily basis, rather than on a yearly price chart that may or may not be sent/processed in a timely manner. There's less chance of leaving money on the table, because you're charging last month's (or last year, or 3 years ago) prices. You set the markup rules, and it uses the current vendor price as the base for the formula. The time saved from manually updating prices, or even looking them up in a book while selling, is probably considerable.

When something is discontinued, you are notified right away - rather than the once yearly paper price list update. You'll know to yank the sample off the wall. The system will warn you that it has been discontinued, if you try to sell it. This saves the embarrassment of having the customer come back in to choose an alternate.

Paperwork will be concise, and the customer customer copy (invoices/receipts or quotes) lack item/part numbers - which could be taken to a competitor or big box. The workorder goes to the back room only, and has all the measurements and details.

Your materials shopping list will be automatically created for you, as will customer history, mailing list, accounts receivable tracking, back room scheduling calendar and "to do" lists, and daily/monthly financial reports. You'll find that customers will be less likely to haggle.

You can also use any of the popular POS systems to sell art, gifts, supplies, etc. They can track commissions and consignments. Most of them can even process credit cards, or hook up to an optional automatic cash drawer, barcode reader, label printer, or email customers when their orders are ready.

I'm only scratching the surface, with some of the benefits. Jim Miller wrote a great article about this a few years ago, for PFM.

The link in my tagline has a neutral comparison list, if interested. I won't mention which one we use, so you'll approach it with a neutral eye and try out all the various free demos.

We built our counters from 3/4" particular board, with a 12 foot wide design. The sides are indented, lit, and carpeted. The top surface is covered with granite (floor) tiles. The inside of this design counter has slots, where the finished jobs are stored. There are computer terminals on each side of the counter. (just the monitor and keyboards, the pc's, cash drawer, and printer are underneath)

We use clear plastic bags and cardboard corners, like some others.

Good luck with the new venture!

Mike
Get The Picture
Lincoln, RI
 
So far I've learned this...
1. POS is a must.
2. I'm stuck probably designing and building my own design counter (I failed 3D in art school).
3. RESEARCH is good. ;)

So what about my work tables? I have some ideas and was thinking about copying a table I saw at a fellow framer's shop, but everyone's suggestions have been really helpful so far and I'd love to read some about his subject.
 
1. POS is a must.
2. I'm stuck probably designing and building my own design counter (I failed 3D in art school).

So what about my work tables? I have some ideas and was thinking about copying a table I saw at a fellow framer's shop, but everyone's suggestions have been really helpful so far and I'd love to read some about his subject.

I think if you have the skills to build a frame you can build your own shop tables for sure. Designing them got you down?
Have a look at Vivian Kistler's book: 5547Build Frame Shop Worktables & Fixtures
You can easily make adjustments for sizes to fit your particular needs.

I agree, POS is a nobrainer.
I used to wrap my frames in kraft paper, then I went to cardboard corners and 3" stretch wrap. I ran out of corners a couple of years ago and started using just the stretch wrap and have never went back to corners. ULine has some great prices on their own brand of 3" stretch wrap.
 
We are bless with lots of room! AJ built two work tables that are 8 ft by 8 ft.

He used 4x4 post, 2x4 braces, and 3/4" mdf type sheets with a laminate on them for a top. They are GREAT! Smooth and easy to clean! We spread a moving type blanket out for delicate work and fitting. AJ even built drawers for one table and we picked up used small filing cabinets to go under the other to hold all our bits and pieces!

There is a discount lumber yard near by and I was surprised how little it cost!

Yes, research is your friend!!

Something we decided last week ... matboard storage should not be at ankle level. One, it's difficult to see what's what and two, too many flood recently!
 
Look for a used store fixture store.
Search your local craigslist.
Check out shopping centers and malls for store closings. Look especially for Big box stores shutting down.

Often counters and other display fixtures can be bought for a fraction of the cost new.

Example from my local Craigslist date 9/7/11 http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/fuo/2587659850.html
Another example happening everywhere: http://www.borders.com/online/store/LocatorView

Remember it's usually possible and relatively easy to change the height of a counter or table.

Doug
 
I am a BIG Craigslist shopper!! We got a bunch of our fixtures from a music store that was closing.

In case you missed it earlier SearchTempest is a great site to search all the areas at once, not one at a time.
 
1. Yes this sounds like a real fine "first impression" for your customer. Just slap together some 2x4's and cover with foam core:p
2. There is nothing faster than a good POS program if you're looking for accuracy, continuity in pricing, customer tracking, and overall professional appearance. You need to read the vast collection of threads on this subject.

.....but hey, the handwritten paper work order does fit in well with the 2x4 and foamcore design counter:confused:

I am so glad someone finally said it.
 
I use an inexpensive but solid wood conference table for designing. It has worked beautifully for twenty something years and I like that it's lower than counters. You can see it here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0793613093.183403.289564248093&type=1&theater

I would not even dream of pricing without a POS. NOT EVEN DREAM OF IT. I use frameready, but there are several excellent ones out there. Do some research.

I wrap in plastic bags with cardboard corners on the touchier frames on the outside of the bags and hold them in place with stretch wrap. I heart stretch wrap. It's a framer's best friend.

I also would rather open a vein than use someone else's pricing chart. Again, do your research and price according to your expenses. Suppliers DO NOT have your best interests at heart when it comes to OUR pricing. I remember when a certain "luxury" moulding company's reps went around years ago telling us it was actually sensible to price the more expensive mouldings low, low, low. I'm not saying exactly out here on an open forum, but it was nutty nutty nutty. And business suicide, as well. I would consider using the price structure of another to be one of the biggest mistakes a business like ours can make. Do your research.

edie the feelingveryopinionatedtoday goddess

I've got that same table! We had it as a design counter once upon a time. Now we have formica oblong bore-stations. But I like that table that's why I still have it. Didn't notice it when I was there cuz it was full of orders!
 
Briefly, and I don't intend to be mean, have you formulated a business plan? Have you shopped all the potential competition to see what they are doing right and wrong? Do you have the funds to be in business up to a year or more without receiving any compensation? Have you researched a location and negotiated a lease? There are many more questions, but those suffice.

For your own sanity, I would take the earlier advice and get thee to Las Vegas for the WCAF show. Take as many business and technical courses as you can. Mingle, network and cram as much as you can into those precious few days. It will be more than worth the money and effort.
 
Briefly, and I don't intend to be mean, have you formulated a business plan? Have you shopped all the potential competition to see what they are doing right and wrong? Do you have the funds to be in business up to a year or more without receiving any compensation? Have you researched a location and negotiated a lease? There are many more questions, but those suffice.

For your own sanity, I would take the earlier advice and get thee to Las Vegas for the WCAF show. Take as many business and technical courses as you can. Mingle, network and cram as much as you can into those precious few days. It will be more than worth the money and effort.

I appreciate the reality check. I have a partner who is a photographer and we're opening a shared studio space. We are in the process of writing the business plan and researching funds and all that horribly fun stuff. If anyone has some words about that side of it, I am all ears. We need all the help we can get. :)
 
Well, you had better not come to Australia if you cannot live without POS systems.

Only a couple here and we have them both (that comment will get you thinking won't it?). I agree that the sustems available in North America are superior to those here ( a resource and financial thing) but they are useless here.

They are fine for the straight forward jobs (and quicker than hand written). But 50% of our jobs are anything but straight forward and the hand written version is a must.
POS software does not allow for all our hand made frames or all the 'one off' jobs with different materials required.

What do you do if your power, internet, server, computer etc fail or you experience storm damage etc?

We use both POS software and handwritten.
 
  1. POS software does not allow for all our hand made frames or all the 'one off' jobs with different materials required.
  2. What do you do if your power, internet, server, computer etc fail or you experience storm damage etc?
  1. For one offs, I still use POS as it prices all of the normal items within the job and then I just add the extra stuff as misc. and add discription into the notes area.
  2. Our power/internet is reliable here. Our POS still works with stored prices if internet should be down. Yesterday power went out for about 20secs. and we considered closing. Came back on and I had to stay, bummer. :cry:
 
The best advice I can give you is to keep your credit clean, take advantage of any early pay discounts that vendors offer, and buy in baulk as much as possible.

Get educated. WCAF show in Jan is a great place to start. Good luck to you.
 
Best advice I can give is to have a large stack of cash for advertising as well as enough to live off of for 6-12 months. Remember to add all the home expenses up and the store expenses as well for your reserves.
 
thoughts for a new shop, and a new question.

We're newbies too - took over an existing shop a year ago and have not changed much. The former owner built the design table - a nice job but it is too low for the new - and taller - owners. We estimate on paper, using a cost matrix sheet for various components at various UI. We are a very small shop in a small town and I think it may actually add a feeling of personal service. Your decisions may be based on what nearby competitors are doing. Re: pricing, I've found the LJ guide somewhat helpful, but am interested to know how others handle price increases: when, and by recalculating everything? Per cent increase across the board? Per cent increase of material portions or labour portions separately? Different percentage for smaller versus larger sizes?
 
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