Hi all, I have a print on heavy paper that is 24 * 75. I have hinged it with rice starch and double pasted mulberry paper hinges to a cloroplast base that was cut to about 1/4" smaller than the size of the art. The cloroplast is about 3/16" thick. That and the paper create about a 1/4" total that is mounted to a float frame that is 7/8" deep. When I fitted the package with OP3 plexi and pulled it into a vertical position the art pulled forward onto the plexi. I assumed that because the height of the art was only 24" that I wouldn't have a dramatic static issue like this-especially since the paper is so heavy. Apparently this was a bad assumption. I read in another post that the fact that I have more than 1/4" of space between the plexi and the art that the static is particularly strong but I read in other posts that you should allow at least 1/2" of space. Is there a definitive answer out there? Thank you Grumblers!
Question Acrylic is Grabbing My Art
- Thread starter scurran
- Start date
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
A couple of things:
1. That coroplast is doing you no favors with the static issue. Aside from the fact that it is completely unsuitable as a backing directly behind the art. The texture of the flutes rule it out as anything other than a secondary backing. And I can't imagine that the rice starch paste will stick to it for very long. Lose it. Use 8 ply rag or acid free fome core instead. I also find wheat starch paste to stick better than rice starch paste, btw.
2. In general, the larger the 'floated'/edges exposed art, the deeper the frame and therefore the airspace needs to be. 7/8" deep frame strikes me as the bare minimum depth. In something 75", I would use a frame deep enough to accommodate a strainer frame and about a 3/4" minimum air space.
3. Wash that acrylic with a plastic cleaner that eliminates or reduces static. Don't skip this step.
4. I hope the art and immediate backer are attached to another backing.
5. What are you using for spacers?
6. Don't fit this face down.
7. You can also use additional 'loose' hinges down the sides and across the bottom of the print. We call these idiot hinges, for the idiot who someday inevitably will carry or store this sideways. These will also encourage the print to lay flatter against its backer.
Let me know.
Edie the caffeinated goddess
1. That coroplast is doing you no favors with the static issue. Aside from the fact that it is completely unsuitable as a backing directly behind the art. The texture of the flutes rule it out as anything other than a secondary backing. And I can't imagine that the rice starch paste will stick to it for very long. Lose it. Use 8 ply rag or acid free fome core instead. I also find wheat starch paste to stick better than rice starch paste, btw.
2. In general, the larger the 'floated'/edges exposed art, the deeper the frame and therefore the airspace needs to be. 7/8" deep frame strikes me as the bare minimum depth. In something 75", I would use a frame deep enough to accommodate a strainer frame and about a 3/4" minimum air space.
3. Wash that acrylic with a plastic cleaner that eliminates or reduces static. Don't skip this step.
4. I hope the art and immediate backer are attached to another backing.
5. What are you using for spacers?
6. Don't fit this face down.
7. You can also use additional 'loose' hinges down the sides and across the bottom of the print. We call these idiot hinges, for the idiot who someday inevitably will carry or store this sideways. These will also encourage the print to lay flatter against its backer.
Let me know.
Edie the caffeinated goddess
Greg Fremstad
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Acrylic grabbing art
Here are some tips on framing with acrylic that you might find helpfull:
http://www.frametek.com/HTML/Articles/Acrylic_Glazing.html
Here are some tips on framing with acrylic that you might find helpfull:
http://www.frametek.com/HTML/Articles/Acrylic_Glazing.html
wvframer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Forum Support Team
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In Memorium
Rest In Peace
Gone but not forgotten
Rest In Peace
Gone but not forgotten
Some really good advice here from Edie & Greg
more_so
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
- Posts
- 1,001
Another effect you get with large, floppy glazing is that when you stand the plex up from a flat position, the plex straightens out from it's bowed-down in the center shape. That creates a partial vacuum over the print, which is pushed forward by air pressure. Have seen this many times.
I have a low-impact but not quite archival solution so I won't mention it. As mentioned a really good buffing with Novus #1 will kill all static effects for about 6 months, but not forever. But I don't think that's what's getting you.
Try leaning the frame and plex vertically against the wall, then add the art and close the frame vertically. Then try never moving the framed piece away from the vertical, enjoy.
I have a low-impact but not quite archival solution so I won't mention it. As mentioned a really good buffing with Novus #1 will kill all static effects for about 6 months, but not forever. But I don't think that's what's getting you.
Try leaning the frame and plex vertically against the wall, then add the art and close the frame vertically. Then try never moving the framed piece away from the vertical, enjoy.
hmmm, well I used cloroplast because of its rigidity and because it came in a long enough length. I haven't worked with plexi very often so didn't think that the combination might worsen my overall static issue. I also have not used cloroplast as a mount before so I did some reading prior to selecting it and found some support for it in terms of it's archival and structural qualities. Are you concerned that the flutes will show through or that they will somehow press into the art? The art is so thick that it will not show through but I guess over time with vacuum motion in the frame it could press in...although the flute doesn't feel like it presses through the face of the coroplast to me....?
The rice starch is only used on the part of the hinge that is attached to the art. the other side of the hinge is attached to the back of the coroplast with beva gel which worked great and got a thumbs up from a guy that I spoke to at Talas.
The way I built the job is with a wood float frame that is painted to which the coroplast is attached. The sides of the float frame provide the spacing function. The back of the float frame is supported in four places to prevent the bottom rail from pulling down over time.
I did close the frame face up and was trying to move it over onto its face to attach the float frame to the outside frame from behind when the art stuck to the plexi. There definitely was a vacuum that was created during that step.
The idiot hinges are there..2 on each side and several on the bottom. I am thinking about adding a 3rd to each side as there is some slight bowing in the middle caused by the static pull.
Thanks for the FrameTek link...I had already read that article...of course, that was after I had a problem! I am not having a problem with dust (though I most certainly will if I do decide to add in those 2 extra hinges, right?..). So because the benefit of the anti-static washes seemed to be temporary I was more concerned about my structural issues..ie, do I have too much space between my art and glazing or too little? I heard Edie loud and clear that I probably have too little but I am so curious about the post where someone on the grumble said that having more than 1/4 or 3/8" space would enhance the static action????
I used a wet chamois to wipe down the plexi and the art below did release. I haven't tried to bring the frame vertical again, though. I was waiting to see if anyone could help me with the question of how much space is optimal with plexi. I could probably add an acrylic spacer painted to match the float and so gain a little more space if necessary but.....uggghhh!
Thank you guys all so much for your answers.
The rice starch is only used on the part of the hinge that is attached to the art. the other side of the hinge is attached to the back of the coroplast with beva gel which worked great and got a thumbs up from a guy that I spoke to at Talas.
The way I built the job is with a wood float frame that is painted to which the coroplast is attached. The sides of the float frame provide the spacing function. The back of the float frame is supported in four places to prevent the bottom rail from pulling down over time.
I did close the frame face up and was trying to move it over onto its face to attach the float frame to the outside frame from behind when the art stuck to the plexi. There definitely was a vacuum that was created during that step.
The idiot hinges are there..2 on each side and several on the bottom. I am thinking about adding a 3rd to each side as there is some slight bowing in the middle caused by the static pull.
Thanks for the FrameTek link...I had already read that article...of course, that was after I had a problem! I am not having a problem with dust (though I most certainly will if I do decide to add in those 2 extra hinges, right?..). So because the benefit of the anti-static washes seemed to be temporary I was more concerned about my structural issues..ie, do I have too much space between my art and glazing or too little? I heard Edie loud and clear that I probably have too little but I am so curious about the post where someone on the grumble said that having more than 1/4 or 3/8" space would enhance the static action????
I used a wet chamois to wipe down the plexi and the art below did release. I haven't tried to bring the frame vertical again, though. I was waiting to see if anyone could help me with the question of how much space is optimal with plexi. I could probably add an acrylic spacer painted to match the float and so gain a little more space if necessary but.....uggghhh!
Thank you guys all so much for your answers.
The quick, and expensive fix is to use Optium acrylic. The metal (I think Titanium) in the microfilm coatings disipates static.
I'm not absolutely sure why, but Polyflute (Coroplast) has never been suggested as a primary mount, always just the supporting role. I stock and use polyflute a bit, but never as the primary mount.
We work with acrylic glazing a lot and use a product called Brillianize to clean the acrylic before fitting. It gets rid of static and it puts a hardened finish on the acrylic that the dust really can't stick to.
Have you looked into a deionization gun to help manage the static?
I'm not absolutely sure why, but Polyflute (Coroplast) has never been suggested as a primary mount, always just the supporting role. I stock and use polyflute a bit, but never as the primary mount.
We work with acrylic glazing a lot and use a product called Brillianize to clean the acrylic before fitting. It gets rid of static and it puts a hardened finish on the acrylic that the dust really can't stick to.
Have you looked into a deionization gun to help manage the static?
I think the more space you have between the glazing and the art the more effects of static pull will occur, I would keep it fairly close 3/16 or 1/8 spacer will still give you plenty of air circulation.
Thanks...there is some conflicting info out there regarding the issue of static pulling on art and whether to minimize or increase the space between plexi and art. Intuitively, it seems like the more space the better but the 1/2 - 5/8" I have in there now sure isn't doing the trick. I'm now one for one...can anyone break the tie...please!!??
If you used plain tap water and not "deionized" water (contained in all the plastic cleaners) that is your problem. You have to discharge the static charge...... and the deionized water is one way.
framah
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Nope. So based on your theory, if i put the art on the other side of the room, my stock of plexi sheets will rip it out of my hands and send it flying across the room.
I have been in his spot, done it. know it...problem solved!
framah
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Breaking the laws of physics, are we now?
Nope. So based on your theory, if i put the art on the other side of the room, my stock of plexi sheets will rip it out of my hands and send it flying across the room.
You have it all backwards, I am not advocating more space between the two objects "art on the other side of the room" I am saying a little less space and the art will not be pulled towards the acrylic or at least appear to be.
I just called a local plastics supplier that I use and he said the more space the better BUT he has no experience framing. I've searched the grumble, the acrylite help page, looked for old PFM articles (the ones that looked most promising weren't available in pdf) and just googled in general and I really think that this is such a specific use of the product that the answer has to come from a framer with extensive experience. We are specifically discussing the attraction of paper to plexi within a 3/16" to 1 1/4" (??) range used in a large enough frame that the art has some give between it's hinges. sigh...and thank you all as always 
framah
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Ahhh... "appear" to be. You didn't say that before. You said that it would pull more the farther away it was, which is wrong. What you are now saying is that if it is closer, you won't notice that it is being pulled by the charge.
Unfortunately, you are still saying a little less space and the art will not be pulled towards the acrylic..which is ..wrong.
The strength of the static pull is diminished by the distance separating the two.
The art will be pulled to the plastic the most when it is the closest. The visible effect is more noticeable the farther away it is.
The main reason I'm busting your chops on this is that your original statement obviously gave the OP the wrong impression and confused him, thus his other post trying again to get a correct answer.
The elders on here may be able to ignore your answer but newbies rely on us to give the correct answer clearly. Sorry, but yours didn't.
I noticed the "appear" as well and definitely agree with that-since it is acrylic the thought occurred to me that having the art touch the acrylic probably wouldn't do too much damage and my customer probably wouldn't notice that the art is touching if there were less space... However, off I go to add spacers, Brillianize my plexi and try again. Thanks everyone!!
Farther in a frame, we are talking about frames and spacers right?, not in a room. The OP wanted to use deeper spacers, I think this will only result in the same situation he has now.
I had the same effect with a large Jim Dine print, extra deep frame with a 3/4" spacer, the customer brought it back because the art was lifting to the acrylic, I replaced the 3/4" spacer with 1/4". The art did not lift and the problem was solved.
The reduced air gap probably had nothing to do with the different result. More likely, the humidity was higher when you put it together with the shallower spacer.
I added a 1/8" spacer which resulted in approximately a 3/4" spacer and it made all the difference. I also used Novus #1 acrylic cleaner before my final fitting which I hope will help me to get the piece on site and installed without another sticking incident. To be clear..I added the 1/8" spacer then moved the entire package into a vertical position as I had before and got no movement of the paper art. AFTER that I added an extra hinge to each side and treated the plexi with the Novus #1. It's been a long, miserable day..hope that's clear and thanks again to everyone for the help.
Scurran, I'm glad that it seems to be working out for you.
I hope the long term result is good, too. Thank you for taking
time to follow this thread through, and for letting us know
what your solution was.
I hope the long term result is good, too. Thank you for taking
time to follow this thread through, and for letting us know
what your solution was.
One thing I didn't see mentioned here is that acrylic will not hold a static charge. Weather conditions do have a great deal to do with static when fitting acrylic. We deal with framers is areas where the wind comes and goes. One day the art may be pulled to the face of the frame (acrylic) and the next it will settle and be flat. Whatever you do to control the static at the time of fitting may not be a permanent solution. It's important that you and your customer understand why acrylic glazing was chosen, in this case it sounds like size and weight would have been determining factors and then understand that acrylic can have a static charge and that it may come and go based on weather conditions and other factors. It really is okay to have the art move a little in my opinion. Better that than smacking it down with all the flattening and destroy the art.
preservator
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Static
Any who wants to test the range of static that a sheet of acrylic can generate can take loose pigment and pour it onto a surface and then hold a charged piece of acrylic above it at different heights. If the same test is tried with Optium, one can see the effectiveness of its tin oxide static dispersive layer.
Hugh
Any who wants to test the range of static that a sheet of acrylic can generate can take loose pigment and pour it onto a surface and then hold a charged piece of acrylic above it at different heights. If the same test is tried with Optium, one can see the effectiveness of its tin oxide static dispersive layer.
Hugh