acrylic and static and pastel

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Ylva

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Gloucester, MA
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Artemis Custom Framing
Well, that says it all!

One of my artists had something framed at a different frame shop. It's a collage, but also with soft pastels. It is 50x60 and she sold the art but the buyers are now getting annoyed with the pastel particles clinging to the plexi.

The artist was advised that it was not the right way to frame this, but there was a budget, a rush factor and the frame shop did the best they could.

Other than Optium Museum Acrylic, are there any other options to consider? I have told her that I didn't think so but would post the question.

Have at it.
 
If there is enough room in the frame, mats, spacers or sidewalls could be added. Distance would help.
 
Distance does not always make it better. I have experienced, if you have the glazing 3/4 to 1"+ it is like the sweet spot for static.

The best solution would be for the artist to rework the art with oil pastel or paint, IMO.
 
TruVue's Static Shield Acrylic is also anti-static....
"when optium isn't necessary - Static Shield can fulfill the need" ($)
 
I agree Randy, I am not comfortable building more space in the package (if at all possible, I haven't seen this piece and no idea what frame was used), static will still exist and I don't think it will take care of the problem. If I would suggest that as a solution...it now will be my problem if it doesn't work.
 
The artist should have used a fixative. When I have a customer ask me how to take care of this problem I refer them back to the artist who knew this would become an issue since it was not properly executed by the artist.
 
If anyone asked me to frame a large chalk pastel behind acrylic I would simply refuse to do it.

No matter how many cans of fixative you use and no matter what chemicals you apply to the glazing this job is always going to end in tears.

They can have glass or take it somewhere else, I don't need the grief.
 
One of my customers belongs to a pastel organization that REQUIRES that pastels submitted for shows be framed with plexi directly against the pastel.

So I sell her plexi. Her choice. She agrees with me, but she wants to exhibit with this organization. Sigh.
 
A framer can only take what's given and do the best they can. A pastel that size is going to be a pain to frame. Especially if it is on a thin piece of paper.

Artists tend not to think things though. Something on that scale needed a bit of prep. The paper should have been mounted to a solid board - better still onto a stretched canvas. Prior to the application of the pastel I hasten to add.....

As for fixing, that is the artist's job. And it should be fixed in stages. Do a bit - fix it. Trying to fix heavily applied pastel in one go will change the look fundamentally. It will look like a varnished oil painting.
Even then there is going to be shedding of particles. It's the nature of the beast.
 
Here is something not to recommend

My frame shop also hosts a fine art gallery. One of my contributors recently brought in a large watercolor under acrylic with a single mat. The original framer, some place in San Diego, also stacked 2 clear 1/8" spacers between the mat and the acrylic. The edge of the spacers slightly protrude over the rabbet edge into the opening, and from an angle the light refraction, particularly along the seam, is distracting. In short, it looks horrid (IMO).

At least it was a composite white frame and you could not see bare wood through the spacers.

When I dissembled the work in hopes of doing something more elegant, I found the spacers were glued to the acrylic and I couldn't just "pop" them off. Long story short, the piece is back together with a new dust cover for now.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
The artist should have used a fixative. When I have a customer ask me how to take care of this problem I refer them back to the artist who knew this would become an issue since it was not properly executed by the artist.
Click to expand...

Good call. Aside from the fact that fixatives generally alter the appearance of pastel artworks, artists and conservators disagree about whether a fixative really helps to preserve the art over time, since the coating deteriorates and loses its ability to contain the pastel particles. One conservator said spraying fixative on a pastel is like spraying varnish on sand. The coating makes a hard 'crust', but the grains below the surface are still loose and free to shift. Eventually the crust cracks and chips, forever altering the surface texture of the art.

While applying a fixative may be unwise in the long run, it is a matter for the artist to decide. However, as Jeff implies, it would be unwise for a framer to apply the fixative, since that would represent a permanent change to the original artwork.
 
Novice question...
When someone brings a pastel into your shop is it readily apparent when a fixative has or hasn't been applied?

So far I haven't had one brought in and I have never worked with pastels!





Z
 
You can do all sorts of searches here on the G' about pastels and fixative, and all you will find is that no one agrees.

Truth- Fixative helps pastels stay on thier substrait.
Truth- Plexiglass can cause static, and therefore pull the pastel from it's substrait.


Uncomfortable Truth- We don't know what the long term damage might be from fixatives.
Uncomfortable Truth- Fixatives have been known to make certain colors of pastels fade... sometimes almost to the point of looking like the color was never added to the piece.

Truth- Adding space between glazing and pastel helps keep the natural shedding from adhearing to the glazing.
Truth- A raised mat, with a reverse bevel, also helps hide the shedding.

The reality is, Pastel, Chalk, and Charcoal are all mediums that were designed for an artist to practice. It was never intended for a permanant art form. Modern artitst use it, because they have been taught to use it. Unfortunately, we are left with the task of trying to preserve a fugitive artform.

Framing pastels is always a pain. They can be beutiful, and stored in a portfolio they can last many lifetimes, but once you life it up, and make it stand verticle, the dust will naturally want to settle. We can give our customers instructions on how to carefully clean the glass, so they don't create static... and they won't listen. We can offer reverse bevels, and they will want to see a white line around the art. (Which won't stay white long.) We can recomend glass instead of plexi, and they will insist on plexi.

We are not magicians. We are framers.
 
Z David said:
Novice question...
When someone brings a pastel into your shop is it readily apparent when a fixative has or hasn't been applied?

Z
Click to expand...

Varies by artist since some just spritz it over the piece as if it will take. I have had good luck getting the artists to properly spray the work. Most of my artist make a point of telling me it has been sprayed since my head nearly explodes when they come in unprotected. Since I stock nearly all of my materials I get them framed and back out the door very quickly.
 
Susan, you forgot the other truths......

Tacky truth: Art schools forget that part about "practice medium"
Hard truth: Artists are to lazy to use the real medium after the practice
Wacky truth: Fixatives can also darken the substrate enough to alter the appearance
Evident truth: The buyer has remorse about spending good money on wasting art
 
Yup, you don't have to tell me about pastels and artists and framing. I work with pastels myself and I NEVER spray with fixative. My choice. Since I am also the framer...I know what to expect ;)

I know the right ways to frame a pastel. I think the framer who did it also knew and the artist (and she is extremely nice) also knew that it wasn't framed right. If it would have come into my shop in the first place, I would have turned down this job for all the right reasons.

But I feel bad for this artist. She did sell her work and now the problems are appearing. I have not seen this work, not sure if she will be able to re-work it, maybe cut down size or anything else. She learned a lesson and admits that and I honestly just want to give her some suggestions that she might be able to work with.

I also wonder, even if she sprays it with fixative (this is a mixed material piece so the fixative might not even be an option) if that bond would be stronger than the static energy of the plexi.

I fear her only option is to take the art back, reimburse her customer or offer an exchange piece.
 
Fixative is not a sealer. It is a spray that is intended to help hold the pastel on the paper, kind of like hair spray holds hair in place. You add wind, or static, and no matter how much hairspray you use, your hairdo is gone. Same thing with fixative and pastels.

Bear, your Truths are right, and I did forget them. Thank you for pointing them out.

The original name for fixative was "Workable Fixative." This was used to help hold the loose particles of chalk/pastel in place, while you added different colors. Sometimes it was used to help keep the art from smudging while you took it from home to class.

I am not speaking from the misguided standpoint of a student who had a teacher make me use pastels for art projects. I am speaking from the standpoint of 28 years working in the Art industry, and many conversations with the manufactors and distibutors of Art supplies. Just like the Framing industry, the Arts and Crafts industry has conventions, and we got to meet many of the people who made the supplies we sold. We also got to take classes from these people, and learn the intended uses of the products.

But I also have done pastels myself. I made the mistake of letting my teacher use a fixative on one of my projects, and had to redo HOURS of work because it caused all of the white in the pastel to fade away. (Most of the light yellow too.) I never used Fixative again.
 
There are actually two types of fixatives... a workable fixative is, as Susan said, intended for the artist to use as they are working on a piece or transporting to and from classes. The final fixative, such as Krylon Crystal Clear is a final fixative. Once a final fixative is used the pastel cannot effectively be reworked.

It's funny Susan that you made the comparison of fixatives to hairspray. Many art professors would tell their students to actually use hairspray as a fixative... NOT a good idea. Though hairspray will help hold pastels or charcoal to the drawing they will definitely change colors and increase the contrast of the pastels and discolor the paper too. I realize you were not equating them but just using as a comparison. Modern fixatives, although they do alter the work somewhat, have far less effect on pastels than fixatives of old that were applied with a mouth atomizer.

I don't know that I agree that pastels were originally intended just for practice or doing sketches. Pastel is another form of painting and is just another medium. Pastel artworks are referred to as paintings and are, IMO, just as valid a medium as oils, acrylics, casein, encaustic painting, etc. They too have a binder, it just is not oil, polymer, eggs or wax, but the same pigments are used and modern pastels use methyl cellulose as a binder.

Mary Cassat's completed pastels were not just sketches that were working documents to do oils from. They were the medium she painted in during the years she worked in pastels.
 
I teach a pastel class and a color pencil class....... I spray my own artwork and the kids' artwork with the Krylon Crystal Clear . Never had one yellow or destroy or fade the pastel or pencil.

I'm looking at a pastel I did 14 years ago. It's perfect .....color and everything.

That ginormous pastel needs a fixative..... that's the only way someone's not going to have to take it apart once a year and clean it. :popc:
 
Well, the artist came back in and confirmed that it was sprayed with fixative. She can't remember what she used though. Maybe the static pull is stronger than the fixative bond.

Also, this is mixed media, not all pastel. She cannot rework it with anything else. She can't cut down on size (again, I have not seen this art)

She will advise her customer to come in and talk to me but I simply don't see an easy solution unless they want to go for Optium. I have my display handy...maybe it will do the trick.

And no, I will not spray this myself (just in case someone feels like jumping in with that advice, I know better than that)
 
I might be wrong but I don't see how and if someone points me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it. Hair spray is a shellac, how would shellac discolor the pigment? It will get golden tone from oxidation and will take the color from the pigments but discolor? I don't think it will.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
The artist should have used a fixative. When I have a customer ask me how to take care of this problem I refer them back to the artist who knew this would become an issue since it was not properly executed by the artist.
Click to expand...

I agree! My shop in an Art Studio where we teach children's art classes-chalk (esp) and oil pastels need to have spray fixative on it! That is the artist's fault :(
 
EllenAtHowards said:
One of my customers belongs to a pastel organization that REQUIRES that pastels submitted for shows be framed with plexi directly against the pastel.

So I sell her plexi. Her choice. She agrees with me, but she wants to exhibit with this organization. Sigh.
Click to expand...

do you get her to sign for it, that its not your fault when the whole thing sticks to the plexi over time?

sorry... being a little bit of jerk with this comment... but i would say that is doing what the customer wants, and not the best for it...................................
 
AnnieS said:
I agree! My shop in an Art Studio where we teach children's art classes-chalk (esp) and oil pastels need to have spray fixative on it! That is the artist's fault :(
Click to expand...

Calling it a fault goes a little far I feel. I use pastels. I don't use fixative.

Anyway, this artist DID USE FIXATIVE so that is not the issue here. It still comes off, pulled by the plexi so I assume the static is stronger than the bond a fixative can make.
 
Here's a solution a friend of mine lives by. She's an artist that frames and sells a bunch of her prints. So always shipped with acrylic. Static is a big problem for her. She shoots her acrylic with a zerostat, and claims the dust just falls off it. The price is high for a temporary solution.. But how cool is that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NVIxo0eT58
http://www.needledoctor.com/Milty-Zerostat-Gun

I've yet to buy one, but it's on my list for when a free $100 bucks drops in my lap! :)
 
Jesse said:
Here's a solution a friend of mine lives by. She's an artist that frames and sells a bunch of her prints. So always shipped with acrylic. Static is a big problem for her. She shoots her acrylic with a zerostat, and claims the dust just falls off it. The price is high for a temporary solution.. But how cool is that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NVIxo0eT58
http://www.needledoctor.com/Milty-Zerostat-Gun

I've yet to buy one, but it's on my list for when a free $100 bucks drops in my lap! :)
Click to expand...


We used to have Zerostat guns WAAAAYYY back in the 70's for cleaning dust off of records. (remember records??) :thumbsup:
 
framah said:
We used to have Zerostat guns WAAAAYYY back in the 70's for cleaning dust off of records. (remember records??) :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Still got mine. :smiley: Never was entirely convinced of their usefulness. :icon11:


Still got the records btw. Can't play them as my old amp packed up and new ones don't have phono inputs. :(
 
Gilder said:
I might be wrong but I don't see how and if someone points me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it. Hair spray is a shellac, how would shellac discolor the pigment? It will get golden tone from oxidation and will take the color from the pigments but discolor? I don't think it will.
Click to expand...

It is refractive index stuff. Fixatives can saturate some whites (and colors that have white in them) so that they "decolorize". Like if you mist water on chalk, the chalk will "disappear", but reappear as the water evaporates. But the fixative does not evaporate, so depending on the pigment and fixative type, it can look like decolorization. This also explains color shifts you can get with fixatives.

I have no answer for the Ylva's friend's problem, but do recall Hugh mentioning that glass directly against pastels was sometimes used as a type of fixative - as for example on those beautiful 18th cen pastel portraits.
 
nikfrz said:
What is a "substrait"?
Click to expand...
I didn't find that word's context in a quick look back at the posts here, but generally a substrate is a backing or mounting surface to which something else is attached. For example, bread is the substrate in a peanut butter sandwich, and 4-ply virgin aplha cellulose board could be the substrate for mounting a paper item using edge supports or hinges.
 
Rebecca said:
It is refractive index stuff. Fixatives can saturate some whites (and colors that have white in them) so that they "decolorize". Like if you mist water on chalk, the chalk will "disappear", but reappear as the water evaporates. But the fixative does not evaporate, so depending on the pigment and fixative type, it can look like decolorization. This also explains color shifts you can get with fixatives.

I have no answer for the Ylva's friend's problem, but do recall Hugh mentioning that glass directly against pastels was sometimes used as a type of fixative - as for example on those beautiful 18th cen pastel portraits.
Click to expand...
Thank you Rebecca, I see your point, make sense. The problem is, speaking about shellac which is alcohol based I never see it doing anything like that. Alcohol evaporates very quickly. Well of course I am just a frame maker and not an artist and don't use full specter of pigments.
Is there any study on that matter?
 
fixative

When anything is sparyed onto a work on paper, there are several issues that must be considered. How will the sprayed material age, how will it affect the sparyed (upon) media, and will its presence make differing parts of the art age differently? Rebecca has addressed the first two and they should be problematic enough to dissuade most such applications, but over time covering parts of the drawing with something that acts as a sealant (to some degree) may lead to differential oxidation among differing parts of the design and thus, to changes in appearance. Oversize pastels are all but impossible to preserve, without the resources of a major museum and even then it is a challenge.



Hugh
 
Rebecca said:
...
I have no answer for the Ylva's friend's problem, but do recall Hugh mentioning that glass directly against pastels was sometimes used as a type of fixative - as for example on those beautiful 18th cen pastel portraits.
Click to expand...

I have six beautiful pastels by California artist C. H. Pohl that were framed most likely in the late 1940's. The glass is in direct contact with the pastels. They are in perfect shape but I suspect if you removed the glass there could be problems.
 
Ok, I have a question...

Why would you use a spray fixative on oil pastels? They are OIL, and work like a crayon. They don't shed. The don't need any type of sealer to keep them from becoming a pile of dust at the bottom of the framing package.

(While I don't like ever using spray fixatives, I at least understand using it on Chalk Pastels.)

Thank you Hugh and Rebecca, you give good reasons against spray fixatives.
 
Gilder said:
Thank you Rebecca, I see your point, make sense. The problem is, speaking about shellac which is alcohol based I never see it doing anything like that. Alcohol evaporates very quickly. Well of course I am just a frame maker and not an artist and don't use full specter of pigments.
Is there any study on that matter?
Click to expand...

Hi Gilder,

The water was just an example, as something most of us have seen, maybe a bad example as when the water evaporates it doesn't leave anything behind.

When the alcohol evaporates from the shellac, (or any other type of solvent evaporating from a varnish or fixitive) the varnish/fixative is left and that is what affects/changes the appearance of the the underlying material by saturating it. Which in many applications is just what is wanted, but maybe not so much with pastels.

Gettens and Stout "Painting Materials" is a very good resource for this kind of thing.

R
 
I saw that too Sue, and it doesn't make any sense to spray an oil pastel.

As I stated before, the decision to use fixative should be with the artist. Just as the decision not to frame something because it can't be done right, should be with the framer.

Dave, if I could find glass large enough I could frame it the way I usually frame pastels; with reversed cut beveled floated mat. But the 50x60 is the big problem here.

I am meeting with this artist again tomorrow, not so much to discuss this problem as to look at a new order she is placing with me. It does help to be able to give her some more answers on this problem though and although the 'anti static gun' is nowhere near a permanent solution, I can at least make her aware of its existence.

I have not seen this pastel art piece, so have to go with what I am being told and what the customers have told this artist.
 
Ylva said:
...
Dave, if I could find glass large enough I could frame it the way I usually frame pastels; with reversed cut beveled floated mat. But the 50x60 is the big problem here.

...
Click to expand...

I wonder what would happen if you did a direct contact with plexi, similar to how my small pastels were framed directly in contact with glass? Not suggesting you experiment with a customer's piece, but wonder if it might work if the substrate was sufficiently rigid enough to maintain contact with the pastel?
 
Interesting, I have no idea really. But wondering how thick the plexi would need to be for it to be rigid enough. I have not seen this piece, so no idea what kind of frame it has and if it would be sturdy enough to support he extra weight.

No, I would never experiment on customer's work and this wasn't my problem, fortunately, in the first place. I haven't seen this customer in a while, did suggest the anti static gun and she would suggest it to her customer.
 
No matter how rigid the acrylic I would think normal vibrations and differing expansion and contractions between the acrylic and art substrate would cause an eventual blurring of the art.
 
Pastels/chalk are the devils work and no matter what is done with them they will always be a problem in a frame with glazing.

Acrylic on them is asking for trouble, especially when the owner has an unrealistic expectation that they will remain dust free! I would advise the customer to go back to the artist because they created the problem!

Acrylic is way too flexible to be used up against anything. It's a dust pump, because it can move towards and away from the art every time the frame is moved and every time there is a change in temperature/climatic conditions!
 
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