ack! Mass production?!

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emjs181

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Okay, so my boss (he's just owns the place, he's not a framer) has informed me that he's accepted a corporate job that will consist of about 1200 separate frames. At first, we thought they would be all the same size. They'll be metal frames, which we order pre-chopped from Larson anyway, so I didn't balk TOO much at that, and we figured maybe we could get the acrylic pre-cut from someone too. But today, we received the first batch of prints today, and they're all varying sizes.
What's the most efficient way to tackle such a huge project? I'm the only framer here, so I'm going to be doing this single-handedly. Is it feasible to order such a massive list of pre-chopped metal frames and acrylic? Anyone have experience with this? I'd appreciate any suggestions/ideas.

Emily
 
I would call various frame suppliers and see who would give you the best deal on these. I have a local company who would bend over backwards to help me with a job like that, and I'm certain they'd cut the acrylic. Talk to your reps and see who offers you the most help and the best price.
 
That is a little much for one person to do. It may take you a month to do that many.

You can order acrylic precut from a lot of suppliers. I know that Piedmont Plastics will cut your order for you and Larson would sure love to chop the frames.

Financially on a job that big, the frame moulding really needs to be bought in bulk and cut.

I may feel a little envy for the owner, landing a job that big. However, I don't envy you the task of such a large project. You need some helpers in the shop for that job.
 
The first think I would do is spread out the prints and check for duplicate sizes.

As Jerry commented, this is a huge job for one person. Also expect to spend more time fitting vs as with glass.

Based on doing 15 per day, about 2 per hour (I don't know about mounting and packaging), thats 80 days of work for one person(16 weeks), without additional counter work.
 
Ordering plexi precut will drive your profit margin in the ground. Organize the prints according to sizes. Start with the sizes that are divisable (SP?) by the sheet of plexi you use. Do the largest ones first, leftovers can be used for the smaller ones. You should be able to crank out over fifty a day when you get into it.
 
Yikes, I hope he hasn't commited to price before finding out the sizes. This sounds like a way too big job for one person. If he wants you to organize it let him know you will need some temp help. My question is what will the shop do if you take in regular business? Who will do that?
 
Emily,

I don't know where you are located but you might try contacting Chris Nohr at Missouri Moulding and Glass. They are wholesale only and geared toward mass production. They've been doing this for a long time. You might even be better off sending the posters to them and having them do the assembly work. You might even discuss having them drop ship it directly to the corporate customer unless you have plenty of space, muscle and a way to deliver them.

Missouri Moulding and Glass site:

http://www.mmgwholesale.com/contact.html

If your shop is extremely slow right now, that's one thing. Otherwise, personally, I never neglect or put off my existing, better paying customers for a one time job that will drive you crazy finishing anyhow. When you have a job of this size, it will require all your attention, not to mention all your space, and little else will get done until you're through with it.
 
Emily,

The logistics on a job like this are huge. Most often the details of a big job are worked out ahead of time.

First get a handle on the sizes.

Then you need to call your suppliers and see if they have enough inventory to satisfy.

Then you work out the timing of everything.

...... Then there's the cost.


Your about to join the big league.

Doug
 
Randy,

What a man you are! Fifty a day? I'm not questioning your ability and perhaps you own your own business BUT even at 50 a day, have you calculated how many days it will take? Try 24 days. Of course, if Emily were to actually take a day off in between...

Emily, I don't usually speak speak this way to women other than my wife But...RUN, HONEY, RUUUUNNN!
 
Let me clarify a little, if you have everything preped, mounting done, plexi done and are just fitting and don't have any interruptions, doing fifty a day is possible. It's not like you have to mat and hinge every thing, all the real work is in the prep anyways. My real concern is getting sloppy on the job and scrapping a poster or two. With 1200 pieces something bad is going to happen. And yes I once worked at a poster shop where we cranked out 50 a day, not pleasent work but it could be done. All bragging aside, 30 a day without interruption would be a reasonable goal. Depending on the due date, maybe they can be delivered in batches.

Who's going to hang all that work? I do security hanging, it takes me 10 to 20 minutes to install a frame:)
 
I worked in a mass production shop. Keep in mind it’s already been proven that I'm a completely liar on this topic but I'll share anyway.

We only built frames in groups of sizes and we always worked in pairs. Work was always lumped into sections. One would cut piles and piles of glass and backing while another cut mats (by hand). Then one would chop while the other joined. Then both would fit all the parts together.

I can't fathom how a shop could get a job like this ordering chops and precut glass somebody did something very well (or screwed up big time). All that’s left for you sounds like fitting and that is one step in itself. I don't know of anyway to break that up.

If these were huge, I guess 50 a day might work. The pieces we fit were smaller and you would be asked to leave fitting only 50 a day.

I guess the key is lump as much of the work as you can. That will help things fly. Congrats on such an order. I hope you get a cut.

Carry on.
 
Seems to me, since you boss made the sale, he/she must have researched the prices before making a bid on this project. The boss must also be aware of the production schedule and other projects that have to be done. Since you are a one person shop, the boss must also have allowed sufficient time to deliver this project.

I think "The Boss" is going to have to pitch in on this job and help with the ordering and some of the labor, unless this 'boss' has allowed plenty of time for you to accomplish this on your own.

There is an old thing about managers and what their job should be, I'll try and get as close as I can.

A managers job is to facilitate production so as to be as efficient and cost productive as possible. That does not mean standing there hollering and pointing, it means, if need be, to roll up your sleeves and pitch in and get the job done. Your job is to help your staff do their work.

John
 
1200 frames? That's what I call an order.:icon21: I wouldn't like to even comtemplate fixing the hangings on the back. Let's see, if you did one a minute, that's 20 hours straight.:confused:

What's the framers equivalent of White Line Fever?
 
I think the big difference in my time analysis is that I am looking at the whole picture from:

measuring
ordering
receiving
material layout and sequencing (remember all asst sizes)
mounting (unknown)
cutting glazing
cutting backing board
fitting
packaging and paperwork matching
cleanup and interruptions

not just fitting

My assumption that a one person shop is not large and probably not set up from a material flow perspective efficiently.

Also a first time production job for this shop is a time when Murphy shows up and doesn't leave.
 
Well said Gerome, it's a HUGE job, hopefully it can be broken up and spaced out. Who needs 1200 posters anyways?
 
JFeig said:
I think the big difference in my time analysis is that I am looking at the whole picture from:

measuring
ordering
receiving
material layout and sequencing (remember all asst sizes)
mounting (unknown)
cutting glazing
cutting backing board
fitting
packaging and paperwork matching
cleanup and interruptions

not just fitting

My assumption that a one person shop is not large and probably not set up from a material flow perspective efficiently.

Also a first time production job for this shop is a time when Murphy shows up and doesn't leave.
Click to expand...

I think you're dead on with this one. I would be looking to subcontract. There are two of us in my gallery/ frame shop. This is my 34th year in the biz and I know it's great to be busy but not to the point of being overcome, defeated and lose money at the same time. Of course, maybe the owner stands to send his kids to college as the payoff. Sadly, poor Emily is not likely to reap much except tired bones, frustration, boredom and frazzled nerves.
 
Out source it.

1,000 - 1,200 frames is 6 months work for a one and a half man shop... thats a 8-5 shop with a front door closed.
 
Ah, this thread reminds me of the late, great Kramer the Framer back in 1969 or '70, when I first worked for him as a framer. He got a job for 350 tiny frames, maybe 3 1/2 x5 or 4 x 5, 3/4 gold wood scoop - and he was totally psyched to get such a creampuff order like that - he could use up all of that moulding that he had inherited when he bought the shop back in the fifties. And scrap glass - yes!!! Which in those days was all cut by hand - no wall cutter. And corrugated backings.

Use scraps of glass, no mats, maybe not even fitting (customer was gonna do that as I recall).

What a horror show! He ended up hiring kids from the neighborhood and trying to teach then what to do - then he would go ballistic and have a melt-down - it took 6 people weeks and weeks and weeks to finish those blamed frames - they were like cockroaches - they were everywhere!

Plus we had all of our regular jobs to do - the dry mounting and the velvet liners and such.

Production is wonderful if you are set up for it - otherwise it can be a mind-numbing soul-sucking nightmare.
 
Well said Mar. I just don't see any way a one person shop can do this. Emily mentioned the owner was not a framer. it sounds like he may not have known what was involved. This kind of job could kill a shop.
 
emjs181 said:
Anyone have experience with this? I'd appreciate any suggestions/ideas.

Emily
Click to expand...

Your boss is putting a lot at risk by accepting this job. Not only because he's not a framer, but also because he employs only one person, takes on a job that size, and is relying solely on you to complete the labour.

Time to inform your boss that your rate has just gone up.
 
I hope you are being paid extremely well for this.
 
OK, Emily.

It sounds to me that the consensus of experienced framers would advise an attempt to educate your boss into the impending doom about to descend on him if he doesn't give serious consideration to all aspects of the job he has accepted (on your behalf).


Perhaps a copy/paste of all the input in this posting would be wise. Your boss, not being a framer, may be totally unaware of what is involved as he has never done this before. The term for this is ignorance not to be confused with the term stupidity. However, if he chooses to proceed with having you (and perhaps his inexperienced self) do all the work after having read the input from all the well-seasoned business persons/framers here, I would reverse the terms with the cream of stupidity rising to the top.

Sounds tactful enough, right?
 
I think my boss took the job because business has been nothing if not abysmal since Christmas. Blizzard after ice storm, after blizzard after ice storm has resulted in many days of no income at all. I don't think we were panicking yet, but close. I'm just a kid (27), and not in a position to question his wisdom on this. At this point, I'm considering everything you guys have said so far, and weighing all the options before I freak out. He's mentioned a bonus in it for me, and living on the fringes of poverty, that's definitely attractive.

Apparently, we're going to be doing the project in batches of several hundred at a time, due at intervals throughout the next couple (or dozens?) of months. Broken down that way, it feels slightly more feasible, but still intimidating. One thing I'm wondering about is my vacuum press (Bienfang), since we'll be putting everything on Speedmount... would it hold it up to that kind of heavy use?
 
emjs181 said:
One thing I'm wondering about is my vacuum press (Bienfang), since we'll be putting everything on Speedmount... would it hold it up to that kind of heavy use?
Click to expand...


Yes. The press should be fine. It was built for daily/constant use.

Financially, are you sure SpeedMount is the way to go? I would not think that it would be cost effective on this size of job.
 
Learn to make jigs for everything, from measuring through final assembly. A well designed and made jig will save a lot more time than you realise. Think through all the steps and write down the best way to repeat it with ease, loads of goods ideas posted above will help with that. 50 a day is an easy target in a well organised production environment, I would expect much more than that if you were just assembling.

If I can say just one thing that I consider key to this being successful, be sure the deposit is a very good one.
 
I think Speedmount will be well worth the extra cost beyond foamboard and tissue. It's much quicker to trim a piece of Speedmount to size than to trim a piece of foamboard, and then trim a piece of drymount tissue, and tack it all together. As long as you have the space to cool the drymounted piece under weight, I think you'll find Speedmount to be quite efficient.

Doing this job in batches will be a real lifesaver to you. As everyone has said, it will take over the shop, even with batches of 100. I think what you need to do is calculate the time required to finish a given number of pieces -- 5 or 10. Then you can tell your boss how many months will be required to finish this job. Don't forget to mention that you'll be working around your shop's normal retail business. Another consideration is whether you should be taking on some part-time help for this project. With two people working, the job won't necessarily get done twice as quickly, but it will get done more quickly than with just you toiling away. Having part-time help will free you up to wait on customers, and to work on the more complex projects.

Your boss is a salesman, and like most salesmen I've encountered, he's more interested in closing the sale than in figuring out whether his company is actually capable of fulfilling the promises he has made. Your job is to get the job done, not to ensure that the job is as profitable as the boss estimated. If getting the job done within the customer's time frame entails extra expenses, whether through part-time help, outsourcing, or leasing a storage facility and van, then the boss has to be prepared to eat those extra expenses.
 
Emily...ouch!

I'd say it's time for the owner-but-not-a-framer to come in and start being a framer! Doesn't take much to operate a screwdriver, and maybe he will think twice on the next bazillion-frame order, when he realizes how much work and time (and stress!) it will take for one person to do.

Hopefully, you will be paid by the hour, and when he sees how many hours it will take you (lots!) to put together that many frames...holy cow! You will need major help! Pre-cut acrylic or you-cut-it. Ya still gotta peel that paper off of it, and then fish out the boogers. Can he temporarily hire someone to help you with this project? You might suggest that. How he priced it shouldn't be your concern. But your stress level should be!
 
I've worked in very high production situation(Michael's) and never expected people to finish more than 30 a day, just finishing. To prep, join and fit 30 a day would be very hard.

I can understand your boss grabbing at this sale if times are hard but man it just doesn't seem like he did his homework. It could end up costing him money in the end. You have to make killer deals on your materials and it just doesn't seem like he has done that. Chops, plexi and speedmount does not sound like a commercial job to me. Hopefully he negotiated well. I wish you lots of luck doing this Emily. Make sure you get a great bonus!
 
Well now that a little more information about this job has been forthcoming, I will weigh in.

This kind of project is our specialty and we do it all the time.

First of all, I would absolutely subcontract having the moulding chopped and the acrylic cut to size by an outside resource.

The advice that it will eliminate your profits is unfounded. Regal Piedmont (a major plastics supplier) has $100,000 beam saws in several of their locations. We buy the acrylic from them, give them a cut list which they plug into a cutting optimiser, and for $60 per hour, cut, label and stack the acrylic. And they deliver it. We pay our standard costs on the acrylic and then $60 per hour on top just for the cutting, and it is much more accurate than score and snap.

I would recommend using film masked acrylic as opposed to paper masked. (And don't let anyone tell you that blue masked acrylic is an inferior product). While you may have to replace a piece or two due to scratches, the labor saving of unmasking the acrylic with film masked will more than offset the cost of replacing a sheet or two, Also, there is much less static generated with film masked. I would stay away from Plaskolite and stick with Cyro FF. We just finished a job with Plaskolite and it is definitely an inferior product and it has way too many surface flaws. Both are ACRYLIC. I would not use anything thinner than .098. We use .118 and feel it is worth the extra money.

RE: bulk chop: We have dedicated double mitre saws but still order bulk chop in many situations. Often you can negotiate getting chops for about what you would pay for length, and for a small shop, there is no way I would recommend cutting your own. You don't say how large the pieces are, but I would recommend using snap in hangers to save time.

RE: mounting: We use a Potdevin NTZ gluer and I would think that a job of this size would more than pay for the machine. Better yet, can you find someone in your city that has one and subcontract the mounting as well? Check under "die cutting" in the phone book. Most die cutters or printing finishes have a Potdevin Machine. Speedmount (or an equivalent) product would be suitable but it is significantly more expensive and very slow. We can mount 100 24 x 36 posters per hour with our Potdevin Machine. I don't know what size press you have, but even running two at a time, have you calculated how much time it will take to mount? You don't say what the profile is of the metal frame, but if it is #5 or #11, 3/16" fome core plus acrylic will make for a slower fit because it will be harder to get the springs in. 1/8" fome core (even speed mount has it) will make for a faster job.

And finally, has anyone calculated how much space even 100 finished pieces takes up let alone 1200? Moving them around the shop? How to get them to the client? Even if they are picking them up, who takes them to their vehicle? What if they aren't "ready" to receive them and you have finished. Is your shop big enough to store them? How are they being packaged?

If you can give more specifics about the job, I'll try to help with other pointers.
 
Hey Rob:

I am glad you weighed in. I am a disciple of your corporate accounts class and your advice is as valuable as ever. This information is crucial for large jobs, corporate or otherwise.

Also the information and advice your provide about logistics should be a bible for anyone thinking about such jobs!
 
A Potdevin Gluer applies a thin coat of glue to the back of the item being mounted. Then you either put it into a vacuum press (we stack them 5 tall in our press) or you can buy a roller press that is a double roller that squeezes the air out as the board rolls through. We find that it is just another piece of equipment to buy and the vacuum press works fine.

You send samples of the paper being mounted along with the board (or tell the glue chemist your needs) and they blend an adhesive appropriate to your needs. We use a different adhesive for bonding posters to gator and another one for bonding posters to fome cor. There is no need to dry under weight. When the pieces come out of the press, we fan them apart (in case of squeeze out) and they are dry in minutes as the coating of adhesive is so thin. Best of all it is water clean up and anything that accidentally gets on the poster can usually be cleaned off with a damp cloth. We also find there is little "curl" or warp. The chemist can also add more or less solids to the mix to compensate for geographical differences in humidity and to give you more "open" time as you ramp up in experience.

Glue runs about $100 for a five gal. pail which will mount 100's of posters. It is much more cost effective than speed mount.
 
The big determining factor is did the owner bid to cover his expenses. Since they are just now deciding what to use it wouldn't appear so. I think most of our opinions were based on what appeared to be a not well thought out bid. At least she has some options now.
 
FraminGal said:
Joined frames at chop rate?? Probably a mute point at this point but just a thought.
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They are metal frames, FraminGal, so unless they are backloaders there would really be no point.


Although out of 1200 prints, you would think you would have many that are the same size. USAFRAMES has some great pricing on backloading metal frames. Shells only / or Shells, backing and glass. You would have to have enough of the same size to make this work. I believe the order is maybe multibles of 6 or 12 of the same size.
 
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