A visit to a BB

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wpfay

Judgmental Terrier Manager
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Sunshine Frames
My wife wanted to drop by the local Michael's this past weekend, and I thought it would be a good idea to take a look at their framing department. Trying to keep the admonition in mind to look for the things they do well, I noticed a number of things. They had really good lighting over the design tables, and all of their samples were neatly organized and displayed. The sample frames were OK, not great designs, but placed along with the samples to be in the clients line of sight. OH, they had customers, that's a good thing.
The only down side that I saw, was a sign above the samples that read (paraphrase): "Drymounting is a great way to preserve your fine art"... and gave a list of reasons to do so.
I was going to go off on a tirade, but why should I do them any favors?
 
Wally,
When I read the title of this thread, I thought you were going to tell us about a nice Bed & Breakfast you visited. :D

-Mike.
 
I thought it was about a visit to "Bulletin Board". Bed and Breakfast sounds better though!
 
Wally although you didn't help them ,what did you do to correct the misunderstanding they are perpetuating with the masses that think they KNOW what they are doing?
Not that it is your responsibility ,but things like that are what cause the uninformed to think WE don't KNOW what we are doing.
After all( With my tounge firmly in my cheek) everyone knows those guys are just as good framers as anyone else and cheaper too.Why some of them are even CERTIFIED.YEAH RIGHT!
BUDDY
 
Sorry Buddy, the budget for the Ministry of Information pales in comparison to the budget for the Ministry for Misinformation. I can only educate one client at a time, whereas they can delude en masse.
 
In response to "certified, yea right"... Yes we are not PPFA certified but we do enlist formal framing training in three different levels. All information is derived from CPF readings and FACTS standards. Visualize drymounting for all the mass-produced artwork with no sentimental or material value and I shall think that the advertising is a good imformative display.
 
"Drymounting is a great way to preserve your fine art"...
 
Originally posted by Abroframer:
In response to "certified, yea right"... Yes we are not PPFA certified but we do enlist formal framing training in three different levels. All information is derived from CPF readings and FACTS standards. <font color=red>Visualize drymounting for all the mass-produced artwork with no sentimental or material value and I shall think that the advertising is a good imformative display.</font>
Click to expand...
Well, Abroframer, I would question the connection between your statement and the paraphrase that Wally mentioned, "Drymounting is a great way to preserve your fine art"...

You surely realize the difference between "fine art" and "mass produced artwork with no sentimental or material value". I personally don't feel that running 50% off sales on inflated framing prices is part of the CPF program nor the FACTS standards. Maybe y'all do things different on the left coast than what is done in here.

Framerguy
 
All right, Grumblers, go to your rooms!

We've already had an innocent-enough post by JayRay turned into still another incredibly tedious ******* rant. Do we really wanna talk about big boxes?

Framer_Guy, welcome back. Now hush up! ;)

[ 06-11-2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 
Yeah!!!! Tom is officially back!!!! Don't be shy or hold anything back Tom. I appreciate the fact that you have chosen an easy target to get back into shape. Ya been gone awhile, I figured you'de go "soft" on us.......

Does anybody else get the feeling that Wally was just setting a little fire with this post? Sitting back there in Florida watching the sparks fly? Cheeky monkey.

Although I do agree with one of his findings..........any Michael's I have been in has always been very well lit. I'll give them that.

[ 06-11-2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]
 
Abroframer you had a good chance to make me look bad until you agreed with that preserving fine art by drymounting statement.Would you please tell me where in the CPF instructional books or in the FACTS guidelines you found the information that substantiated that interpetation of the teatment of "FINE ART".I obviously need to go back and study some more.Oh by the way which of the THREE Levels of Testing have you accquired?
BUDDY
 
Art produced or intended primarily for beauty rather than utility. This is the dictionary definition. Can anyone tell me what "fine art" means to them and why a print of dogs playing pool could not be concidered "fine art" to some people?

Buddy, I take no offense to your statements. I am interested in education and knowledge and firmly believe that framing is a science as well as an art form and should be studied as well as being produced. I have a considerable amount of framing knowledge and would gladly share if only to pass knowledge on to our customers on the proper way to frame.
 
This is interesting (and unexpected.) There seems to be some disagreement about the meaning of the term "fine art."

I think most of us apply that term to meaningful, original art or at least high-quality limited editions and not to open-edition decorative art and posters. Commercial art - even very good illustration - is usually excluded.

Does this sound right to the rest of you? I could be completely off-base.
 
fine art ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fn)
n.

Art produced or intended primarily for beauty rather than utility.
Any of the art forms, such as sculpture, painting, or music, used to create such art. Often used in the plural.
Something requiring highly developed techniques and skills: the fine art of teaching.

fine art

n : the products of human creativity; works of art collectively [syn: art]

Here is the full definition Ron.........I'm thinking they are using it in a way that suits them. They don't sell any "fine art", so I guess they would like to consider what they do sell as "fine art"? Where as, we, outside of the "box" consider "fine art" to be well, "fine art". It is all about semantics and perception.
 
And a Giclee is a big inkjet.

Oh, and Thomas ******* is fine art.

I don't like to say this too often, but I think Ron summed it up pretty well.

[ 06-11-2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 
To me massed produced poster or open edition "Catalog" art is "Decorative Art", Drymount it, spit on it, cut it up and make it 3D.

Fine Art has always been the upper crust, LE's originals, etc. Fine Art can also include those rare heirlooms such as Great, Great Aunt Emibubs photo from the Navy. Do you drymount that?

I know some people that have worked at or are working at BB's, some of them are Grumblers. It depends totally on the individual BB, some have people that really care, even in their management, some, well, don't. I have a wholesale customer that still works at a local Michaels, but no longer works in the framing department, because of the "ineptitude of the management" (His words) His home based frame shop is totally different.

I also saw the "Certified Framer on Staff" sign at the local Michaels yesterday. I talked to the girl there, I wasn't impressed.

Guess what folks, at least they have a nationally advertised sign in their member stores. As long as the public is unaware of a CERTIFIED PICTURE FRAMER designation, but are aware of a Michaels Certified Framer, well, you do the numbers.

Abroframer says he has alot of framing knowledge and is willing to share, good, Welcome.

Now, he knows my opinion of what is Fine Art.

PS Abroframer, if you're a chick, sorry!
 
Originally posted by jvandy57:
PS Abroframer, if you're a chick, sorry!
Click to expand...
That means for the "He" in the last post.
 
With that said, we still have to be careful how we handle what we may consider of no value. Today's movie posters will certainly appreciate. Some Currie and Ives' (decorative at the time) have brought prices in excess of $80,000. The list of yesterday's trash that is today's treasure is long.

"Drymounting is a great way to preserve your fine art"...

Dry mounting is not even a good way to preserve a decorative poster - a Thomas *******, maybe.

[ 06-11-2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 
Wally...................get back out here and see what you did. You got some 'splaining to do. I'm just wondering how long it took you to come up with the exact phrase that would ignite this little bonfire you created. I'm not complaining mind you. My hat is off to you.
 
Abroframer I meant no PERSONAL offense to any individual Framer ,no matter where they work. We have long established ,both here and on HH,the fact that No ONE has a corner on the knowledge and caring market.
However You were the one who said:"Yes we are not PPFA certified but we do enlist formal framing training in three different levels. All information is derived from CPF readings and FACTS standards." And unless I missed something ,when I asked you to quote where in the CPF readings or FACTS standards you found substantiation for that "Dry mounting is a great way to Preserve Fine ART " statement you gave your personal interpetation of what is "FINE ART" but NO quotes or pages of reference.
Then you followed with the statement:"Visualize drymounting for all the mass-produced artwork with no sentimental or material value"If that is what you want us to accept as FINE ART,and it is of no value sentimentally or materially how does it then fit into the Definition that Kathy gave:"Something requiring highly developed techniques and skills"?Certainly if a work of art required HIGHLY DEVLOPED techniques or skills it would in deed have some value ,if not a LOT of value ,even if it were purely sentimental and as such should be treated in such a way as to insure that in remains as it's originator made it and definetly not be depreciated by some FRAMER.
But all this is based on my own trainning and opinions. I'll try later in a personal note to get you a Technical Definition of FINE ART .But in the mean time please keep up your caring and studing you are a credit to the shop you work for.
BUDDY

[ 06-11-2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
Less,

Sometimes it's really hard to tell if you are "fer it 'er a'gin it" with some of your posts.


Nobody probably thought that van Gogh or Renoir or any of the other Old World Masters would ever make a living at what they did either. Who woulda thunk it that a mere century or so later all of their works that were probably done to trade off on some overdue bill or a meal at the local eatery would be selling at Southeby's for untold millions? There are exceptions to everything you can mention here and the list could go on ad infinitum but the Hadley poster of the dogs playing poker or golf or having a shootout at the "Purina Corral" is a far cry from a hand pulled lithograph with 39 colors or a seriograph or any etching or engraving that can be traced back as an original printing of the artist.

We could split hairs on what is valuable and what is not and who is right and who is wrong but I challenge Abroframer to enlighten us on the 3 levels of formal training that the Aaron Bros. and Michaels' trainees go through that teaches the differences in identifying works of art on paper/canvas and determines which are to be drymounted and which are to be handled in some other "appropriate" manner.

I would also be interested in the "Certified Framer" classification that was mentioned and how that compares to the CPF certification that many of us are familiar with. If the criteria for being a "Certified Framer" adheres to FACTS standards and covers the background of art and its handling through the years, the different periods of framing, and the evolution of today's procedures for preservation framing, then I will concede that possibly "Drymounting is a great way to preserve your fine art.".

Framerguy
 
Having no sentimental value!?!?!?!
Heck doesn't almost all artwork have some kind of sentimental value? Isn't that why people buy it in the first place?
Anything that isn't of obvious value...I try to educate the customer about the options available...permanent versus reversible mounting, etc. and let them make the decision.
I have to agree with Kathy on this one, WALLY!!! Look what you started!!!! You just stirred the fire and then you walked away. You appear to be mild mannered but your true nature is showing! :D
 
I have to add this...those 50% ads are sucking people into the stores, even people that know better.
I had a customer in the store yesterday. She went to Michael's because of that 50% off coupon. She told me she heard the price quoted for the person in front of her and 50% off was $300. She had framed things before so she didn't think that was any kind of special deal. She stayed in line anyway. Fortunately for me, she wanted an oval frame and they don't do ovals.
This is a person that has been in my store before, knows what framing costs and still would have succumbed to the come on.
I thin she knows better now, but how many others are in the BB now?
 
Abroframer:

It is against my better judgment to post to this thread, since the pizza-delivery guy is way late and the lienenkugel 'appetizers' are definitly adding up, but please humor me my opinion here.

As a veteran Michaels frame-shop manager (before, during and after their 'org-chart' redrawing & POS software change fiasco) I must declare on this international discussion board that I had some of the most dedicated, persevering, devoted, talented and integrity-filled people working in that BB department. Our frame shop ROCKED. Our numbers were astounding. We actually had lots of fun while cranking out ten to thirty finished pieces a day.!

Why were these BB framers so great at their jobs? Most of them were acquaintences, acquired by my begging them to apply. I got them pay rates well-above most M's stores because my store manager knew I carried the entire store and he took care of ME by agreeing to reasonable pay rates that might actually retain SOME qualified framers. He left me alone... let me order LJ stuff when their OWN freaky warehouse did not have what I needed. Let me buy a mitre saw to re-package the thousands of "oops" frames that I inherited from the previous 'manager.' Let me wear whatever shirt I wanted, regardless of whether or not it had a collar. Protected me and the night framers from other department managers who wanted us to clean the bathrooms when we still had work due the next day. He rocked, and our store was ALWAYS # 1 or 2 among ALL stores on the ENTIRE EAST COAST, (AKA ONE-THIRD OF THEIR ENTIRE INTERNATIONAL NET - which included custom framing).

What was the response to our fabulously rewarding, remarkably profitable and cool entrepreneurial efforts? The store manager got transferred to a low-performance store in a hideous area of ... well, the 'area'. He quit after awhile, even though he had spent almost ten years on the Michael's "Team". His replacement could not accommodate my personal talents (ie deviating several micro-degrees from the 'store' 'policy' - the patent ambiguity of which is a comedy waiting to be written. Not by me). I revealed internal theft; worked overtime after clocking out because there were customers expecting things to be ready; made them kazillions of dollars, and when I finally said 'enough', patiently waited several years before they paid me for agreed-upon un-used leave and payroll-data entry errors that amounted to several thousands of dollars. I'm still waiting. Had a lawyer willing to take the case on pro-bono because it was such a no-brainer. Bleah. Still can't decide on that thing.. Life must go on.

I suspect you 1) have been employed 'there' for a short period of time and 2) are invested and talented and wanting this current job to provide you dignity while you earn an honest living. And 3) you have a bright future, but it's NOT GONNA be 'there".

Part of 'recovering' will involve how you personally reconcile your own feelings when you realize how duped you were - when you get a throat-clutching hit of reality - how they get away with misrepresenting virtually everything they stand for-and how eager and willing the public is to believe it, regardless of whether or not 'it' is wearing clothes.

There is much wisdom in the posts previous to this one... there is no law that says we all must agree with one another. Part of the beauty of this whole thing is observing how things turn out
 
Originally posted by lauralisa:
Part of 'recovering' will involve how you personally reconcile your own feelings when you realize how duped you were - when you get a throat-clutching hit of reality - how they get away with misrepresenting virtually everything they stand for-and how eager and willing the public is to believe it, regardless of whether or not 'it' is wearing clothes.
Click to expand...
WOW! Now that is a powerful statement!

Now for my 2 cents, there is difference between "decorative art" and Fine Art. Anything you have on a wall is "art". How it was made defines "Fine".


Jerry
 
Mass produced art: such as Original "Star Wars" posters? Fine art: such as a 'limited edition' of 15,000?

Some stuff that appears to be Decorative Art will end up being collectible. Some stuff that appears to be Fine Art will end up being wrapping paper.

In our shop it is all treated the same. (OK, maybe the poster on "How to Detect Oral Cancer" is OK to drymount)BECAUSE WE NEVER KNOW WHICH WILL END UP BEING THE COLLECTIBLE ONES.
PS: I venture to say that if you had one of the original Dogs Playing Poker prints, it has some monetary value to those who know.
 
WOW!! lauralisa, them's some powerful words. I am where you were, and you got my head spinning, and on a day facing an audit, too!
I'm not sure if my shop posts that particular sign regarding "fine art", but the drymount rules are:
*No original art
*Nothing with original signatures on it
*Nothing numbered
*Nothing thats not easily replaceable
Could any of these rules help define "fine art"?
 
Ron, the name of the forum is "Grumble", and I would have posted the existence of the sign if it have been in your shop. I think that pointing this out is a legitimate issue regardless of its source.

Deb and Kathy, I did not duck and run. I don't usually play on the G after 5PM.

I only mentined this out of a point of frustration. The choice whether or not to use bubble gum and bailing wire to put your exhaust system back together is entirely up to you. You know the risks and accept the consequences. How your artwork is handled has got to be an informed consent as well. The client does not understand the nuance, sees the signage,and accepts for whatever reason what they read to be fact. And I don't mean to single out the local Michael's. The same kind of treatment goes on, mostly undetected, at every level. I have tried to reframe "valuable" serigraphs from high end galleries in name brand resort destinations, only to find out the work is drymounted to foamcore and the mat is taped to the face of the margin of the print. When questioned, the gallery owner said it was policy to dry mount all the work they sold so that it would lay flat.
One of the galleries in this area would not support FACTS because they don't necessarily adhere to guidelines for c/p framing. They are one of the most financially successful galleries in the area, and though I don't necessarily agree with their choices, I have to admire their honesty and success.
No one needs to defend their policies while laughing their way to the bank. Once your marketing war chest is large enough, it doesn't matter if what you say is not considered by others to be "right".

Machiavelli was right.

Take the money and run.

Did I mention that I've got this bridge for sale?

[ 06-12-2003, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: wpfay ]
 
Wally, I had no problem with your original post. I enjoyed it, in fact, and I find the discussion about what constitutes fine art to be very interesting.

Only when I began reading what I perceived to be some rather personal attacks on Abroframer did I feel the need to step in and blow the whistle.

For all the good it did . . .
 
I was just teasing Wally, everybody knows YOU would never do anything like incite a Grumble Rumble....................

Lauralisa, I applaud your words. I feel every one of them. I also was a bit of a renegade, I did what I had to do to make the people happy and went around many of the rules. Once I lost support of my manager and was presented with a long line of <strike>clowns</strike> managers it was a downward spiral from there. I couldn't help but take it personally and feel responsible to keep the whole shop above water. An impossible task without support and a hard lesson to learn. They should have X-Michael's Frameshop Manager support groups.

The day of reckoning with me came one day when I came to work to see another letter of resignation on my desk from some kid who thought he could do better elsewhere. I read that letter and thought to myself that it should be MY letter of resignation. That very moment I told the crew I was going to leave to get a flu shot. I went home and hurriedly typed out a letter of resignation so I could have it on the managers desk before she came in. This letter had been ruminating in my head for months. I didn't have a back up plan but I was that fed up. I quickly came back to work and calmly placed it on the managers desk and went back to work. I informed everybody what I had done and I was exhilerated. The manager tried to talk me out of it and I even choked at one point but I didn't relent. I went to a friends house that night more than a little freaked out. Her husband who is an executive where he works drew me a chart and explained why I couldn't continue to manage that shop. It all pointed to support and the lack of it. Especialy in that big of an operation, you cannot function without support. Once those people at Michael's knew I meant business they worked with me to get me to stay on as lead framer. They didn't even cut my pay, the district manager thought I needed a break and I would consider stepping back up after the holidays. But I never did...................

[ 06-12-2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]
 
As to the original topic and ensuing discussion...........all I will add is I know for a fact that both Michael's and Aaron Brothers have very good training programs on paper. I am not familiar with the CPF test so I cannot comment if they follow those guidelines. More power to them if they do. The one I used at Michael's most certainly didn't qualify.

So, just for arguments sake let's assume they do meet CPF guidelines and take FACTS into consideration. Then in my opinion to make such claims and to be aware of the correct way to do things is even more offensive than being ignorant. There is no way that this information is utilized at store level in each and every store. Even when I ran a shop I saw unspeakable framing horrors. When you have 500 pieces in the shop and 15 people in various stags of learning and no "support" that I alluded to in an earlier post you can't possibly watch everything that goes through the shop. So until they have enough trained individuals in each and every store in place to implement these so called standards I wouldn't be squawking about those standards so publicly.

As a shop owner I am torn on why I even care. As long as they continue to crank out uninformed framers and shoddy work some of those fed up customers come looking for more educated framers. But on the other hand they(the BB's) are such a huge entity and so ever present in all the big communities I tend to agree that they are giving framing a bad name. That hurts us all.

I know this is a tired subject just like Kincade is. But unlike Kincade this affects us all if it gives framing a bad name.

I'll try to shut up now.
 
I think many of us tend to overestimate the direct effect that big box framers and Thomas ******* have on our lives and our businesses. I also think it might be naive to think that ALL of the effects are negative.

Maybe there SHOULD be a support group for former big box managers but, please, let's not make it The Grumble.

Wally's original post has a lesson for all of us. We can walk into a Michael's and see something we can learn from, even if it's just the lighting.

I might just do that, in fact. My lighting stinks.
 
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