a question of quality

ERIC

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Dec 31, 2001
Posts
1,851
Loc
New York's Hudson River Valley
Business
Newburgh Mercantile
So, when you read the article in the Sept PFM with the guest panel, what was you reaction to what Jay said? He basically said that as a group, independents should not market ourselves based on quality only. It's not a sound plan . . . . AND there are many framers that just can't back up a claim of higher quality because they aren't very good at framing. Go back and read the article - it's good, real good.

So what did you say to yourself when you read his comment?

1) Good point.

2) Wow, what's wrong with him?

3) Is he nuts? Who would be a framer if they weren't really, really good at it.

4) Oh, my god! I think he was at MY local PPFA meeting when I had a piece on display!

5) Ahh, that's right Jay, the Emperor is not wearing any clothes.

6) __________________________________


Anyone care to add?
 
I'll take a stab and suggest that he means that "Quality" alone is not a very wide appealing strategy. Consumers pretty much expect that whomever does their work will use "quality" material and "quality" workmanship. It is a reasonable expectation. To say that you exceed that expectation resonates with a very small market.

Yet, we often hide behind that curtain

I remember (before BB's and Color TV) when framers villainized "the guy down the street" that used those "cheap metal frames". That they were the bane of the industry and would ruin it for all

Today, with mechanization and efficiencies, the difference between most of us is incredibly reduced. The difference between that moulding from Larson carried by Joe's isn't any different than the stuff carried by Mary.

That doesn't mean that quality isn't something to do and mean. It just isn't a successful marketing strategy.
 
As far as quality is concerned, the cheapest shop I have ever been in was hands down the best. He is a fellow Grumbler. Because of the volume he does, his prices are simply second to none. Because of the volume he does, his equipment is second to none (his shop’s equipment was far superior to all the equipment on the entire floor at Atlanta). Because of his volume his employee's training is second to none.

There are those that say, "Good, fast, cheap; pick two." Like Corvettes, there will always be a few shops that separate themselves as the best and price is secondary (You did know that all Corvettes are made right here in the Bluegrass State). But most of those shops will soon be obsolete. My guess is that Jay and Bob have seen this too and say what they do.

It seems that good just isn’t even close to enough. To me, fast and cheap is a great add on.
 
Because there are so many different types of people that we serve, our marketing strategies must be just as diverse.

Let's face it, many don't even know what "quality framing" is! Often, these customers prefer to think that they had something framed and got a "smoken' deal"! And yet I have customers who DO know what quality framing is and know it will cost some money! Others care about the look rather than content; some prefer speedy service instead of waiting to order the material that might make the piece look best...etc., etc.

So, to cover "all the bases" of our community, I'd say to focus on just one virtue would be selling ourselves short.
 
I got the impression that Jay was calling the 'quality' bluff. He is seeing framers that are talking the talk, and then NOT walking the walk. As if it were enough to just say the Q-word.

Then add to that the improving range of product and services by the BB's, and the gap is closing. Closing in on independents that don't deliver anything other than the ordinary, or substandard.

Bob, you are right about the limitations of marketing 'quality' to the public. I think Jay was pointing out that some of us are quality-challenged. Being in denial about our quality, or better yet our business skills, we tend to grab for that curtain!

The very first time that I had a customer take their work back it was due to it being overdue by a few weeks. I can remember handing it over the counter to the customer and being overcome with anger I blurted out "You know, I'm the best framer in the whole area. You won't get what I do from any other shop."

How pathetic. I was not just hiding behind the curtain, I was wearin' the d@mn thing!

As long as the next shop did it in less then 2 weeks, they were most likely very happy. Actually my second sentence was more true then I realized at the time - they wouldn't have to wait a month!
 
Hi Eric-I think, if we are honest,we feel "quality" is so much more important than our customers do. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for quality work. But,we think it is a high level priority with consumers. In truth,I'm not so sure that they do. It is because they have every right to expect it.

As you indicated, if your consumer's project had been done more timely, they would have been satisfied.

So, look at your ads.

I see ads all the time for framers that stress "Conservation Framing" and things like that.

But, I'll bet if you did some focus groups, you might find phrases like "Friendly Service" and "Quick Delivery" and "Great Prices" (not low)would rank higher

Remember the survey that asked consumers how they rated their framer's quality? And remeber the difference between the highest level of satisfaction and the lowest?

It's not a question of quality-It's expected.

Don't try and make a major effort to sell that which is expected
 
I think this short thread was a better explaination then that whole article.

Amazing the concepts that can get across in 437 words. :D
 
The world of business is littered with failed business who relegated quality to a secondary position……

Once you start to compromise quality in any way what so ever the slippery slope downward is started…..

Take a leaf out of any successful business worldwide and ask them where they place quality…….you will find it is possibly the number one most important item in their organisation/operation…..

It is not hard to find business who gave scant regard to quality and it’s not hard to find them on a list of businesses in there category, generally if not always they are at the bottom of the heap….

Oh and beware there is no point in spouting on about been a top quality business you need to be able to display quality in a measurable way…….

So who has a program in place to measure quality!!!!!!

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Originally posted by Jay H:
There are those that say, "Good, fast, cheap; pick two." Like Corvettes, there will always be a few shops that separate themselves as the best and price is secondary
Actually, the current Corvette is "Good, fast, cheap". It not only competes with, but out-performs cars that cost two to three times the price.

Originally posted by Bob Carter:
I think, if we are honest,we feel "quality" is so much more important than our customers do. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for quality work. But,we think it is a high level priority with consumers. In truth,I'm not so sure that they do.
I think I agree, though at first I said "not me!".

We built our company on quality, and our customers constantly tell us (in writing and verbally, not just in loyalty/sales) that quality is what drives them to buy from us.

However, I have come to recognize that that is not a widespread phenomenon, otherwise we would be a huge company instead of a small one. So, I'm just thankful that there are enough people out there that do put quality at the top of their list to keep me (and other truly quality oriented companies) in business.
 
If anyone doubts that quality is not expected from their customers, just hand them something that is done poorly. They will let you know how important it is very quickly.

To Jay's point, you can't hang your hat on qaulity alone. Simply because it is expected.

When you purchase even the least expensive of items, don't you expect a certain level of quality? I do. So assuming that inexpensive item can be purchased at 5 different places in your town, how do you decide who to buy it from? What other message is being sent to you, the consumer, that sways your buying decision? What other message should we be sending to our potential customers to influence their decision?

That, I beleive, was the point of Jay's article. I thought the article was great and thought provoking.
 
Can we call him Mr. Goltz? There’s only room here for one Jay, and I actually participate!
 
I had many pictures framed by various shops (~60 pics, 7 or so shops). I feel I had a high percentage of quality issues such as:

Specks, small glass chips inside package or marks on the mat.

Used two pieces of scrap mat board for the backing, overlapped in the middle.

Brads or points popped through dust cover, or holes poked through dust cover and into foam board from leaning other customer's pictures against it.

Inner mat board slips/sags down after a year or two.

Print comes loose on one side of hinge mount.

Points come loose or the flimsy ones are used causing package to be loose in frame.

Perhaps my fault, but before I knew any better, original art was framed with non-archival mats. 12 years later, the paper has a faint brown burn next to where the mat was (these have since been re framed with conservation materials. Framer should have suggested archival.

Oddly, it seemed all the good stores were closing (or the owner's retiring). At this point, I started framing for myself. I'm not completely satisfied with my work, but the above problems are no longer.

John
 
John,

You bring up an interesting point about quality.

If I and Michael's are both using LJ 345-678, and TV ConClear, ArtCare 81345 mat, ArtCare AF foam back, Drytack AF 111 drymount, Fletcher points, and black Kraft paper, #5 wire and #16 screw eyes....

Where is the differencial other than in how clean and perfect my mats are. And price.

And here is the rub: My price is My Price, theirs is 40% off Their price.

So then it becomes a matter of perception. Not quality.

And then there is the analogy of panty hose.

There might be a few ladies here that remember when you had to go to a "Department" store to by hose. At minimum, you went to JC Penny's.

Then came Legg's. And when they made thier debute, it was on a weird spinner rack next to the check out stand a grocery stores.

(and if you bought $10,000 of stock at that time, you aren't reading this forum).

Were they better? No. Were they cheaper? No. Were they a better value? "Who cares. I had to come shopping for our food, and they're here."

In it's first quarter of exsistence, Legg's captured 38% marketshare and never looked back. No other accessory has ever repeated that feat.

Actually, my wife just corrected me, they were more expensive (pennies), and were maybe good for a few days of wear (poorer quality) but truly convenient.

Could they have been the down fall of JW Robinson, May Co, and Macy's? Just thinking here.
 
Interesting example and analogy, Baer. This is the same reason that Walgreen's, Target, etc. are all carrying staple grocery items now, and it's really affecting the traditional grocery store business.
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Rick
 
I think guys some of you are missing the point about quality in business…….quality needs to permeates all areas and aspects of your business if it is to be successfully used…quality is not just about the product you make and sell…

For those of you interested in quality this is a good “QUALITY” place http://www.asq.org/ :D to get some information……for those of you who want to use quality to drive your organisation a “Six Sigma” program could be the place to start……you can realistically use Six Sigma for programs starting in the range of $25,000 to $50,000…….you don’t need a program like the US Army is running at present which is a $50,000,000 Six Sigma program….

Bear is correct ………don’t mix up quality with other issues around doing business…

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Could the responses of this thread have ever missed the direction of the panel discussion?

I almost wonder how many of the posters actually read the article?
 
For me there has been a sweeping statement made that quality on it’s own does not work……I’m fine with that……I well aware that there are many aspects to a successful business…….but I have experienced in my time the same sentiments about quality expressed without qualification and read as “quality does not matter”……..and believe me people will read Jay Goltz statement as that……..I truly believe that Jay Goltz does care about quality……..

I have not read the article I have never managed to get PFM in Ireland…………………..

I have posted here in a effort to keep a focus on quality……Quality it is too important a subject to have sweeping statements made about it without extensive qualification….. and Bob from what you are suggesting there is confusion already……..perhaps I’m causing some of this confusion by trying to broaden the subject

Would you care to share what we are missing Bob……it would be a great help………….. And possible share with us what sort of quality program you use in your business…….

Hopefully if we can move things along and by people share their understanding of quality we all might learn something from it……..

Dermot
 
Bob, it may seem that way... but how much of "Indepented framers are all idiots except us on this panel who obviously, because we're such a great mutual admiration society and have more bigger stores then all the idiots out there, have all the answers."

I think Eric started it right with what do you think about Jay Goltz statement.... I'm just wondering how he or the editor could seperate him from his siamese twin Marc.... (have you ever seen a piece where there was someone elses opinion seperating them?)

But that being asside.... I would have to agree, the independent framer just doesn't get it. They can chose to work 9-5 (same as their customer base) or 12-7 and do a load of sales and pickup in that 5-7.
I do believe that they would strengthen their bottom line, and without curing their over cuts and dirty windows. It's just an idea.

The shop I work in is open 10-5 even though she doesn't have any kids to run home to. sat is 10-2... she won't budge. I just work there.

If I was starting a frameshop today, it would name it "Good Framing", Friendly, Reasonably Quick framing, and Great Prices.

I would start with a POS, CMC, and HVP. M-S 12-7. My wall would be 15% high end, 75% mid, 10% bottom feeder. And I would price AF mats only slightly lower than hand wrapped fabric. and that's all I'm gonna say.
 
“Quality” in framing is as abstract as a quality dentist and a car mechanic. What is the measure for quality? If your car didn’t run yesterday and does today, did the mechanic do quality work? I’m a framer and can’t tell you what “quality” work is. Does a 1/8” over cut make it poor quality? Is regular glass on a poster less quality than museum?

I did read the article. The responses aren’t really in depth and leave a lot to question, which is what were doing here.

I would think that Mr. Goltz and others were hinting that it might be better to focus on something measurable. Those things being turnarounds, price, selection, other services, awards, and other thing that customers can better gauge. My mechanic doesn’t tout his quality work because if he did, he might not be my mechanic. He does tout customer service and speedy service. Those are areas that I can measure and is why I say he does “quality” work.

Quality is a generic term to customers who know very little about the trade.
 
Quality is the ticket to the dance. Beyond the ticket you need all the other moves if you're going to take the girl home. I think in a more verbose manner that was what was being said in the article.
 
I didn't meant to demean anyone's opinion-Heck, we all know what they are worth

But Jay Goltz(the way I read it, anyway) was attempting to get a little honesty from us. He mentioned that we all tout quality, but much of the work he sees at Contests and Trade Shows wouldn't pass muster at his shop. If I was to take anything from his comments, it might be that we ought to be as good in practice as we are in our own minds

The others on the panel expanded, in my read anyway, the notion that what many rely upon as their "quality advantage" is not an advantage. And that was not as good a marketing strategy as many thought.

I agreed completely

But,we tend to think that these self-inspection issues only apply to the others and not ourselves. This easily could have been one of those rhetorical questions that was designed to get the framers to put their own operations under a microscope

Pontificating about quality is pretty hollow unless you can prove it to your customer in terms that are undeniable. And then it (the pontificating, not the actual quality) may only become important if the customer thinks so. If we used any of the available measurements (surveys and sales volume), it appears that the consumers don't think the same as some of us

Baer, my friend, I must tell you that Marc might easily be the single brightest guy in the trade. There are afew more that can sit in the same pew, for sure. And, while Jay and he certainly agree on so many things (as do I), there aren't any clones in that crowd. Trust me when I suggest that they cerainly do have some very independent views on how they operate their own businesses.

The last paragraph (I think it was the last) highlighted that very fact when he mentioned that while they may disagree on particulars of the discussion, good business practices were good business practices

If there were ever the most important message, that would be it
 
Oh Bob, I have NEVER seen them as clones. Not even as jesters.... oops,

No I just find it interesting in kind of an amusing way that in the last 15 or so years, they always seem to be sitting on the same platform or in the same articles... just that, nothing more.

And yes, good business practices was the point of the panel, and should have been the only point.

But, you have to admit, playing around with the meaning of quality for the weekend has been illusidating. . . . oh, **** I'll get in trouble for that word...mmmmm "has been fun". :D
 
>But, you have to admit, playing around with the meaning of quality for the weekend has been illusidating. . . . oh, **** I'll get in trouble for that word...mmmmm "has been fun". [Big Grin]

Yeah, you should be concerned.
After all, you're the one who introduced the forum to "didacticate". ;)
 
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