A must see airs tonight.
- Thread starter Jay H
- Start date
Jay I'm glad you reminded me .I too thought it would be very interesting as well as informative.I hope there isn't anything conflicting that might make me forget or miss it.
BUDDY
BUDDY
preservator
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Anyone interested in preservation issues should watch.
Hugh
Hugh
shopmonkey cpf
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
i usually do watch nova---i love it, it's so well produced and authoritative.
I was looking at the frames they use for these things. I bet they cost multiple thousands of dollars. I hope the give the actual costs of these frames.
It would be good information (and possibly a picture) to have on hand the next time somebody balks on the $200 frame you just designed. "Look at this one. It cost $80,000. Makes yours look like steal huh?"
It would be good information (and possibly a picture) to have on hand the next time somebody balks on the $200 frame you just designed. "Look at this one. It cost $80,000. Makes yours look like steal huh?"
McPhoto
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
If you miss the program - make sure & visit the website Jay mentions in his post. Click on the interactive window to see some close-ups of the damage that has been done over the years and the attempts to preserve it. It makes me wonder what preservation techniques will be available within the next hundred years?
Jay - History records that John Hancock requested that the Declaration of Independence be laminated w/ a UV inhibitor - but the office of management & budget wouldn't okay the additional expense. Oh, and the frame that was ordered for it from LaMa*** is still on back-order
Jay - History records that John Hancock requested that the Declaration of Independence be laminated w/ a UV inhibitor - but the office of management & budget wouldn't okay the additional expense. Oh, and the frame that was ordered for it from LaMa*** is still on back-order
FramerDave
PFG, Picture Framing God
Holy cow. That job took $5 million, five years, and they put a metal frame on it?
I kid, of course. That's some really incredible stuff. That's one to record.
I kid, of course. That's some really incredible stuff. That's one to record.
Framerguy
PFG, Picture Framing God
I'm not sure that a gold plated titanium frame fits into the standard category of "metal" frame, Dave. That puppy would not be one of your customers' choices for their Super Bowl poster!
A few of us can't get PBS so I will have to depend on this thread and the website for our information on this historic project.
Please, let's not Frankenthread this one too much, guys.
Framerguy
A few of us can't get PBS so I will have to depend on this thread and the website for our information on this historic project.
Please, let's not Frankenthread this one too much, guys.
Framerguy
Rebecca
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Thanks Jay - that site is really interesting!
Rebecca
Rebecca
FramerDave
PFG, Picture Framing God
I kid, of course.
Most Nova programs are available for purchase in VHS or DVD format through the website. It may take a while after they air, so check back for it. I'll watch it Friday (recorded) but it may be well worth having a copy of.
Once again, very cool stuff.
It's not an OEM metal frame. It's part of Nielsen's Natural Elements series!
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Rick, as usual, you are one sick puppy. Keep it up.
Sherry Lee
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I emailed all my customers and shared the program with them.
Good marketing tool.......Thanks Jay!
Good marketing tool.......Thanks Jay!
Jana
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Darn, I missed it. I wonder when it will be repeated. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Jay.
stud d
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
The Smithsonian just had a show about the National Archives and thier vaults. In the show it has a piece that shows the frame and the different layers that make up this frame for the Declaration of Independence. I was fortunate enough to go on a tour with one of the gents who organized the show...it is so neat to hear the background info. Well atleast for this framing nerd. Just silly, things that are just so far out there, a real treat to see. Now if I could only understand all of it.
Wish I saw the show
Patrick Leeland
Wish I saw the show
Patrick Leeland
Framar
WOW Framer
My favorite part was when they described the laborious whole-day soldering job to seal one of the documents for the first time fifty years ago. THEN they discovered a hair - inside!!! (Just like we all do - after the frame is sealed!)
Their solution was to drill a hole in the encasement and suck the hair out and solder the hole shut again.
It was a very wonderful program - I am only curious why they would use aluminum. I woulda thought stainless steel would be more durable. But titanium, hey!
The finished projects looked VERY GOOD!
Their solution was to drill a hole in the encasement and suck the hair out and solder the hole shut again.
It was a very wonderful program - I am only curious why they would use aluminum. I woulda thought stainless steel would be more durable. But titanium, hey!
The finished projects looked VERY GOOD!
preservator
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Given their decision to mill a box our of a solid
block of metal, Aluminum makes sense, but one can
only hope that it was anodized. The fact that
they made a gasket out of metal was striking and sensible.
Hugh
block of metal, Aluminum makes sense, but one can
only hope that it was anodized. The fact that
they made a gasket out of metal was striking and sensible.
Hugh
Save this program and show it to clients that insist in "a little touch up" of the artists image will not hurt.
It is good documentation as to the current feeling of what to do and what not to do with an antiquity. They only did one small edge fill in and absolutely no cleaning other that minor surface cleaning. And absolutely no fill in of faded ink.
Now was the tempered glass they used:
regular
coated
low iron
or something else
It was also interesting to see the heated discussions of the scientests and other experts
It is good documentation as to the current feeling of what to do and what not to do with an antiquity. They only did one small edge fill in and absolutely no cleaning other that minor surface cleaning. And absolutely no fill in of faded ink.
Now was the tempered glass they used:
regular
coated
low iron
or something else
It was also interesting to see the heated discussions of the scientests and other experts
Hugh I wasn't as wide awake as I would have hoped.However I did see that the sugestion of filling the pockets with Silica Gel was nixed since the package was air tight.
My only problem is that as I understood the propeties of Silica Gel ,it did absorb humitiy amd Moisture but it had a sturation point. By this I mean that it continued absorbing Moisture until it reached it maximum capacity then it oozed moisture causeing a pooling effect. Granted there normally isn't enough humity to reach that point in a normal incasement and this package was filled with Argone after being evacuated.However if I completely understood ,the original encasement finally leaked and it was intended to be forever. Therefore it was a long time before the leak was discovered and if the Silica continued to remove moisture couldn't it have become the source of the very problem it was intended to preventI am also aware of the fact that the Sharpest mines in every field wherebeing used but there seemed to be some diametrical disagreement on this point. Was that a valid problem or am I misunderstanding the Silica Gel properties?
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF ®
My only problem is that as I understood the propeties of Silica Gel ,it did absorb humitiy amd Moisture but it had a sturation point. By this I mean that it continued absorbing Moisture until it reached it maximum capacity then it oozed moisture causeing a pooling effect. Granted there normally isn't enough humity to reach that point in a normal incasement and this package was filled with Argone after being evacuated.However if I completely understood ,the original encasement finally leaked and it was intended to be forever. Therefore it was a long time before the leak was discovered and if the Silica continued to remove moisture couldn't it have become the source of the very problem it was intended to preventI am also aware of the fact that the Sharpest mines in every field wherebeing used but there seemed to be some diametrical disagreement on this point. Was that a valid problem or am I misunderstanding the Silica Gel properties?
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF ®
preservator
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
The silica gel issues were as Buddy stated. They said that they felt that their seal and the paper
they added behind the document would be enough
to keep the atmosphere in balance. They said that
their container would not stand up to a plane
flight, where decompression and loss of temperature are problems, which must be accounted
for in a museum loan package. Silica gel can
buffer the atmosphere when temperature changes
and it will help a slightly leaky package for
a limited time period. If the package leaks and
the climate is constantly too wet or too dry,
the silica gel will, eventually, follow and
maintain the surrounding condition. There are
differing opinions on its use with wooden objects,
and the testing needed to resolve that issue is
not yet complete. As with framing, one has to
guess, as to what is going to happen and try to
deal with the demands, which that future would
impose.
Hugh
they added behind the document would be enough
to keep the atmosphere in balance. They said that
their container would not stand up to a plane
flight, where decompression and loss of temperature are problems, which must be accounted
for in a museum loan package. Silica gel can
buffer the atmosphere when temperature changes
and it will help a slightly leaky package for
a limited time period. If the package leaks and
the climate is constantly too wet or too dry,
the silica gel will, eventually, follow and
maintain the surrounding condition. There are
differing opinions on its use with wooden objects,
and the testing needed to resolve that issue is
not yet complete. As with framing, one has to
guess, as to what is going to happen and try to
deal with the demands, which that future would
impose.
Hugh
preservator
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Also, they mentioned that the glass was low iron
and anti-reflective and from diagrams associated
with the program, one could see that it was laminated.
Hugh
and anti-reflective and from diagrams associated
with the program, one could see that it was laminated.
Hugh
A very informative and interesting show. I think I'll use my free tickets for a trip to see the new and improved. Some of the historical facts I had forgotten.
Thands Jay for bring this to our attention.
Thands Jay for bring this to our attention.
Ok I missed the first showing and set the recorder to catch the second one at midnight. I set the VCR for midnight and got 3 minutes of colorbars then the station went off the air. Its supposed to air 2 more times this week. I'll try to catch it then.
JudyN
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I missed it last night will try again...
AnneL
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I got home from helping my husband photograph a group of grade school wrestlers just in time to catch it. I was able to see most of it despite the fact I was busy getting dinner for myself. I plan on watching it again tonight. It repeats at 10 pm on Wisconsin Public TV.
After watching the program with such interest its kinda humbling to realise how much we all can still learn and do. I'm going to watch it again also...
Danny
Danny
HannaFate
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
We taped it, and got to watch it last night. My husband and I both laughed when the hair showed up.
I noticed they used a small vacuum cleaner and canned air to clean the inside of the package. The wipes they were using were something my husband recognised from the clean-room. Micro-pore, no lint material.
I enjoyed the history part, too. What an abused document!
I noticed they used a small vacuum cleaner and canned air to clean the inside of the package. The wipes they were using were something my husband recognised from the clean-room. Micro-pore, no lint material.
I enjoyed the history part, too. What an abused document!
Hugh I am curious ,and please don't be evasive for any reason. Where you and/or your office invited to particpate in this project?
BUDDY
BUDDY
I thought their "clean room" was interesting, and with all the experts involved with engineering & design of the enclosures, only a few were actually in the room, in direct contact with the documents.
One thing surprised me. The conservators working on the documents didn't cover their hands, hair, or mouths until it was time to complete the assemblies. I would have thought an accidental exposure such as skin oil, a spittle spot, or an errant sneeze would be more than they would risk.
One thing surprised me. The conservators working on the documents didn't cover their hands, hair, or mouths until it was time to complete the assemblies. I would have thought an accidental exposure such as skin oil, a spittle spot, or an errant sneeze would be more than they would risk.
It's on again at 3am Sunday. I have Tivo set to record it. We haven't seen it yet.
OK I just now watched it. As I expected it left me with as many questions as answers. Can we get a “for framers version” of this show?
My questions are:
1. Why was the man who built the first frames NOT there to tell them how to undo the frames. It looked to me like they were experimenting.
2. Did I understand correctly that there was glass directly on top of the documents before?
3. When they were examining the documents with that blue light, was that an ultraviolet lamp? If so don’t we spend tons of money protecting images from UV? Then they put pure concentrated UV on the paper!
4. Exactly what type of glass was used? They said it “has a special non reflective coating.” Is that Tru-Vue museum glass?
5. I never realized that the image we typically see is actually an early copy of the original and that the documents are basically faded to nonexistence. I wonder where we can get accurate copies of the Dec. of Independence and Magna Carta? That would be an awesome example of how light is a primary concern in preserving art.
My questions are:
1. Why was the man who built the first frames NOT there to tell them how to undo the frames. It looked to me like they were experimenting.
2. Did I understand correctly that there was glass directly on top of the documents before?
3. When they were examining the documents with that blue light, was that an ultraviolet lamp? If so don’t we spend tons of money protecting images from UV? Then they put pure concentrated UV on the paper!
4. Exactly what type of glass was used? They said it “has a special non reflective coating.” Is that Tru-Vue museum glass?
5. I never realized that the image we typically see is actually an early copy of the original and that the documents are basically faded to nonexistence. I wonder where we can get accurate copies of the Dec. of Independence and Magna Carta? That would be an awesome example of how light is a primary concern in preserving art.
Framar
WOW Framer
I've seen it twice now and I swear they said the original inner glass was sitting directly on the documents. How could that be?????
Hugh??????
Hugh??????
AnneL
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
It was sitting directly on the documents, but there was more than one layer of glass and it looked like they had spaces between them. Inside a sealed package, condensation wouldn't be a concern but they did become concerned when they discovered the crizaling occuring. There was a possiblity of damage to the surface from abrasion. I'd never heard of crizaling before.