framanista
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
80"x24" mirror
- Thread starter framanista
- Start date
D
Dermot
Guest
Have 6mm mirrors made and bevelled (25mm 1inch Bevel)to size and because it is a bathroom have the backs coated with lead this is an old fashion method but it will stop the mirrors from de-slivering…..then you can stick them to the wall with “Gunner Prene” or whatever the local builders adhesive is…ie “No More Nails” for example…..you can then tile around the mirror……it will look super and you will have no comeback with the mirror getting spots on it….ie. de-silvering……I have the mirror as described awaiting installation in our bathroom when we get around to re-decorating.
Rgs
[ 02-10-2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Dermot ]
Rgs
[ 02-10-2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Dermot ]
TheCat
True Grumbler
I did 2 large mirrors for different bathrooms
.
I used frame braces on the back (they come for metal and wood frames premade or make your own with thin wood and screwed into the frame).
The owner of the bathrooms had high(8") and thick(1/2") backsplash and I used that lip to set the mirrors on it, to support the weight.
The mirrors are attached to the wall with cleats.
The cleats would work great any ways, they support weight better (kitchen cabinets are hung most of the time this way).
Hope this helps.
I used frame braces on the back (they come for metal and wood frames premade or make your own with thin wood and screwed into the frame).
The owner of the bathrooms had high(8") and thick(1/2") backsplash and I used that lip to set the mirrors on it, to support the weight.
The mirrors are attached to the wall with cleats.
The cleats would work great any ways, they support weight better (kitchen cabinets are hung most of the time this way).
Hope this helps.
I have seen mirrors glued to the wall with Mastic. There was also a chromed "L" bracket that was screwed to the wall at the bottom to support the weight.
Dermot, I have seen mirrors with coatings applied over the silvering. Does this provide the same protection as the lead coating you spoke of? The coating is a terra cota color and is very abrasion resistant.
I have framed a few bathroom mirrors. I alwaystell the client that the frames were not intended for this environment and that they would not fair well in this application. They want the "look", and they got the money, so, why not?
Dermot, I have seen mirrors with coatings applied over the silvering. Does this provide the same protection as the lead coating you spoke of? The coating is a terra cota color and is very abrasion resistant.
I have framed a few bathroom mirrors. I alwaystell the client that the frames were not intended for this environment and that they would not fair well in this application. They want the "look", and they got the money, so, why not?
AWG
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I'd check with a glass & mirror shop. They can coat them (there is a mirror sealer that comes in a spray can) and perhaps install with mastic like Wally suggested (same way a mirror wall is installed.
Then you can sell them a frame that can be glued (Liquid Nails or something like that) to the wall.
Of course, this is a PERMANENT solution.
Then you can sell them a frame that can be glued (Liquid Nails or something like that) to the wall.
Of course, this is a PERMANENT solution.
D
Dermot
Guest
Wally
That red coating will do a similar job as the lead coating…..and is most likely adequate for a mid range job………if you can find a mirror maker who can provide a lead coating service….you have found a class operation and you need have no fear about selling mirrors for difficult installations.
The problem with mirrors de-silvering in a bathroom is because the edges are not sealed and the moisture starts to work it’s way in under the coating on the back gets damaged when the mirror is being installed…….like good framing you get what you pay for……for framers it is worth there while to culture a relationship with a good glazing/processing operation in their area……
Rgs
[ 02-11-2004, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Dermot ]
That red coating will do a similar job as the lead coating…..and is most likely adequate for a mid range job………if you can find a mirror maker who can provide a lead coating service….you have found a class operation and you need have no fear about selling mirrors for difficult installations.
The problem with mirrors de-silvering in a bathroom is because the edges are not sealed and the moisture starts to work it’s way in under the coating on the back gets damaged when the mirror is being installed…….like good framing you get what you pay for……for framers it is worth there while to culture a relationship with a good glazing/processing operation in their area……
Rgs
[ 02-11-2004, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Dermot ]
realhotglass
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Framanista and all,
Having been in the retail glass industry for some years, I’d like to share on this.
1. Don’t use any adhesive on the back of a mirror, except neutral cure silicone, preferably Dow Corning structural rather than some of the cheaper hardware store brands.
Anything else is like acidic products in framing, it will eventually stain through the layers of backing paint, copper, and silver.
Liquid nails etc will definately stain through eventually.
See item 4 though, but still avoid using anything to glue it on except n/c silicone.
2. There is a coating available in an aerosol spray can, called Mirror Edge Sealer here (funnily enough). You apply it just to the first 3” or so of the edges, as this is where the moisture will attack (rarely away from edges on good quality mirror) and on any holes drilled in the mirror.
It is worthwhile applying this sealer when fixing in bathrooms etc.
3. The best method to fix mirrors in bathrooms, or any wet area for that matter, is to drill holes and fix with the domed fixing kits commonly available (chrome, gold anodized, copper finished domes are usually available).
The clips that go below and top of mirror are next best fixing method, they have spring loaded top clips, have any of you seen these there ?
4. Do not seal around a mirror in this situation with any type of sealer or frame (sorry, but note . . . if item 5 can be addressed well enough, go for it !).
Moisture will get in, and anything around or behind the glass will hold this and cause spoilage to happen much quicker.
5. Advise client to ensure good ventilation, as this will eliminate that moisture problem before it can start. A good exhaust fan will prolong the life of the mirror greatly.
6. As someone pointed out, edgework can be beveled, or the cheaper (but equally as nice) flat edge polished (fep) edgework, which is simply the face edge ground flat with 45 degree chamfers and then highly polished.
Hope this helps, please ask if you would like to clarify or share thoughts on any of this.
[ 02-11-2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: realhotglass ]
Having been in the retail glass industry for some years, I’d like to share on this.
1. Don’t use any adhesive on the back of a mirror, except neutral cure silicone, preferably Dow Corning structural rather than some of the cheaper hardware store brands.
Anything else is like acidic products in framing, it will eventually stain through the layers of backing paint, copper, and silver.
Liquid nails etc will definately stain through eventually.
See item 4 though, but still avoid using anything to glue it on except n/c silicone.
2. There is a coating available in an aerosol spray can, called Mirror Edge Sealer here (funnily enough). You apply it just to the first 3” or so of the edges, as this is where the moisture will attack (rarely away from edges on good quality mirror) and on any holes drilled in the mirror.
It is worthwhile applying this sealer when fixing in bathrooms etc.
3. The best method to fix mirrors in bathrooms, or any wet area for that matter, is to drill holes and fix with the domed fixing kits commonly available (chrome, gold anodized, copper finished domes are usually available).
The clips that go below and top of mirror are next best fixing method, they have spring loaded top clips, have any of you seen these there ?
4. Do not seal around a mirror in this situation with any type of sealer or frame (sorry, but note . . . if item 5 can be addressed well enough, go for it !).
Moisture will get in, and anything around or behind the glass will hold this and cause spoilage to happen much quicker.
5. Advise client to ensure good ventilation, as this will eliminate that moisture problem before it can start. A good exhaust fan will prolong the life of the mirror greatly.
6. As someone pointed out, edgework can be beveled, or the cheaper (but equally as nice) flat edge polished (fep) edgework, which is simply the face edge ground flat with 45 degree chamfers and then highly polished.
Hope this helps, please ask if you would like to clarify or share thoughts on any of this.
[ 02-11-2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: realhotglass ]
realhotglass
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
PS. 6mm (1/4") mirror and I'd drill 6 holes each mirror for this size.
If we are considering non-framing alternatives to mirror hanging, why are we (picture framers) even getting involved in the process?
I actually didn't know about the moisture problems with mirrors, so thank you for that.
But if someone wants to know about hanging a mirror without a frame, I guess I'd send them to a glass shop.
Most of the best, single-frame orders I've had in recent years have been mirrors in big honker frames.
I actually didn't know about the moisture problems with mirrors, so thank you for that.
But if someone wants to know about hanging a mirror without a frame, I guess I'd send them to a glass shop.
Most of the best, single-frame orders I've had in recent years have been mirrors in big honker frames.
realhotglass
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
It would be better to refer it to a specialist Ron, good point.
The customer will get the correct job, be happy, and come back to the framers when he has framing work that the framer CAN help them with.
The customer will get the correct job, be happy, and come back to the framers when he has framing work that the framer CAN help them with.
D
Dermot
Guest
Les
Not to disagree….but I have to defend the method I described…..this is a method that is used by a glazing business in Dublin who have over a hundred years experience.....they stand solidly by this method….though their competitors who have not mastered this type of coating for mirrors tend to dismiss it….I wonder why……and do believe me Ireland has to consider dampness in all area of glazing installation asides from bathrooms……we have a rather damp climate in these parts……there is no need to have screw holes in mirrors if the correct installation method is used…….there are thousand of installations in Ireland and around the World as I have described…have a look in the rest rooms of any half decent hotel for example.
Unfortunately this business is quite traditional so there is no web site to refer you to…..but you could give them a call they are Dunne’s Glass Ltd., Coolock, Dublin 17 Tel: +353 1 8471511.
I would go with your suggestion for the use of silicone.
Rgs
Not to disagree….but I have to defend the method I described…..this is a method that is used by a glazing business in Dublin who have over a hundred years experience.....they stand solidly by this method….though their competitors who have not mastered this type of coating for mirrors tend to dismiss it….I wonder why……and do believe me Ireland has to consider dampness in all area of glazing installation asides from bathrooms……we have a rather damp climate in these parts……there is no need to have screw holes in mirrors if the correct installation method is used…….there are thousand of installations in Ireland and around the World as I have described…have a look in the rest rooms of any half decent hotel for example.
Unfortunately this business is quite traditional so there is no web site to refer you to…..but you could give them a call they are Dunne’s Glass Ltd., Coolock, Dublin 17 Tel: +353 1 8471511.
I would go with your suggestion for the use of silicone.
Rgs
Frank Larson
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Sorry Dermot but I don't think anybody does this here. At least I've never heard of it and I'm really surprised to hear they are doing it in Ireland. Can anybody say "Lead poisoning"? I don't think OSHA would allow us to start spraying lead around our shops. You should see the hassle we have to go through just to remove lead based paint from our houses. Yikes!
It could be a difference in the products available in our 2 countries. All the mirror in the States come with a coating already on the silvering. No need to recoat with lead. The edges where the silvering is exposed do need to be coated to protect them. You can get the coating from C R Laurence. It comes in the can or spray. Only the very edge or any scratches on the back need coating. CRL also sells a variety of mastics for sticking the mirror to the wall. Typically you use a "L" shaped chrome strip at the bottom to hold the weight and the mastic holds the mirror to the wall.
All that said, this is usually a job that I refer to my local glass company. I do FRAMED mirror installations they can do the unframed. They have a much better idea what mastics work with which wall surfaces and such.
D
Dermot
Guest
I stand corrected….the backing now a days is a copper material of some sorts.
Rgs
Rgs
realhotglass
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
(I just had a reply nearly finished, and accidentally clicked the back button on my mouse !
)G'day Dermot, believe what you say for sure with regards to the backing, have heard of applications of heavy lead based paints for example.
In short, I think the art is lost in most places, and with modern materials is likely not necessary.
The important processes of silvering are a good coat of silver, a better coat of copper, and a good 2 pack paint to finish.
Some silverers cheat by skimping on silver, skipping the copper altogether, and then depending on the paint to make it opaque.
A traditionally silvered mirror next to a cheaply done one looks amazingly better, it seems to glow and has depth.
Usually hotels etc want cost savings on installations, and aren't too wooried about longivity, after all they can refirbish every few years anyway.
Sure, use neural cure silicone, as with any other method, good ventilation is the key.
Oh yeah, a trap when siliconing a mirror up is to use double sided tape to hold in place while curing, the tape of course usually has acids that will also eat into the mirror, better to brace in place until cured, generally overnight.
(are there acid free double sided tapes for framers ? Imagine so.
So, how 'bout a bottom line here?
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(If the answer is #4, there are going to be more questions.)
Edit: I'm talking specifically about mirrors that are to be framed. I don't personally plan on doing any non-framing.
[ 02-12-2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
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- Mirrors to be hung in bathrooms should have a special treatment provided my the glass vendor</font>
- They should have a treatment that can be applied by framers</font>
- Modern mirrors require no special treatment</font>
- Depends on the quality of the mirror</font>
(If the answer is #4, there are going to be more questions.)
Edit: I'm talking specifically about mirrors that are to be framed. I don't personally plan on doing any non-framing.
[ 02-12-2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
D
Dermot
Guest
Ron
If the mirror is from a reasonable good source (decent processor) for framing as it comes should be quite OK.
Most mirror glass originates in China, South Africa and Russia …and a few others like Taiwan…..it is then shipped to various countries where it will then be processed…..the quality of the mirror coming from these countries is quite OK….problems arise at the processing stage…there was a company who used to post on the Grumble (sorry cannot recall who) that processed mirrors….they most defiantly came across as knowing what they do…….glass processors are a bit like framers you get what you pay for.
To answer your question for framing…3 if you know the processor…..4 if you do not know the processor…….it’s more about processing the mirror rather than the quality of the mirror……I should point out that I’m talking about 4mm and 6mm mirrors…..I don’t even rate 2mm mirror glass as real mirrors……2mm is for the bottom end of the market.
Rgs
[ 02-12-2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Dermot ]
If the mirror is from a reasonable good source (decent processor) for framing as it comes should be quite OK.
Most mirror glass originates in China, South Africa and Russia …and a few others like Taiwan…..it is then shipped to various countries where it will then be processed…..the quality of the mirror coming from these countries is quite OK….problems arise at the processing stage…there was a company who used to post on the Grumble (sorry cannot recall who) that processed mirrors….they most defiantly came across as knowing what they do…….glass processors are a bit like framers you get what you pay for.
To answer your question for framing…3 if you know the processor…..4 if you do not know the processor…….it’s more about processing the mirror rather than the quality of the mirror……I should point out that I’m talking about 4mm and 6mm mirrors…..I don’t even rate 2mm mirror glass as real mirrors……2mm is for the bottom end of the market.
Rgs
[ 02-12-2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Dermot ]
realhotglass
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Ok Ron,
How about :
Concentrate on framed mirrors, be it anywhere.
Your points 1 & 2 - Use Mirror Edge Sealer if the frame is hanging in a more humid than normal area (bathrooms etc), advise to ensure ventilation to a standard that fog doesn't appear on the glass at all (when showering for example).
I am fairly sure that CRL is the supplier of 'Mirror Edge Sealer'. It is easy for anyone to apply, maybe your mirror supplier will provide this service for you, just ask.
I usually lay it face down on newspaper covered carpet top bench, and give 2 medium coats to the first 3" or so around the edge, and any holes etc.
Dries fast.
Dry fix in frame, use framers points to hold in (or my favourite for this type of fixing - push points). Don't seal up the frame, as this allows air circulation.
Have a back up for where folk want bolt up or clip fixing. Probably a local glass retailer can be referred for best customer needs.
This is safer because it'd be a shame to recommend anything other than a glass business to fix, so easy to crack corners etc when handling / fitting, even the pros can have bad days.
The glazing company will hopefully keep your cards to refer framing jobs.
Your point 3. Generally yes, line grade mirror is good quality, so don't sweat point 4.
Hope this helps clarify options.