6'x6' Framing

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FrameMakers

FrameMakers

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 20, 2001
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Powell, OH
On Saturday I took in a job that I am estimating will be 72" x 72". This is a collection of 1960's vintage NFL pennants. There are 15 in total and the customer wants them displayed in a full circle.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Because of the size of this, the framing has to be engineered to handle the extra weight and stresses.

This is what I have come up with so far and what I emailed him along with the price quote.
Outer frame International 350-45
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Inner frame International 385-05, (this frame will be cut reverse so the back edge will be inside and provide a 3/4" rabbet. this is needed because of the [/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]expansion &[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] contraction of large acrylic. In layman's term, this is to make sure the acrylic doesn't pop out of the frame.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1/4" Clear Acrylic
2.25 yards of 72" wide fabric for wrapping the backing.
4 sheets of 48x72 FoamCore board that will be glued together in opposite directions to form a solid 72x72 backing for the fabric to be mounted to.
Mounting the fabric to the backing.
Spacers between the fabric covered backing and the acrylic so the acrylic is not in contact with the pennants.
[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Strainer that is pocket screwed into the back of the frame to provide rigidity to the finished frame
Attaching the pennants rag backing and spacers behind this to give the pennants a floating look.
Creating a 1960 NFL Logo with my Valiani. This will cover the points of the pennants.
All labor and hanging hardware.

Am I missing anything? Yea this is big and a pita. I am quoting $2335 for the job and anticipate it taking 2 full days on the fitting table. [/FONT]
 
I wouldn't use fome-cor as your substrate. How are you going to glue them together and not have them warp like a potato chip - and especially after you glue down the fabric?

I would use at a minimum, Rhino board or Gator. If you use Gator, you can use contact cement to glue it to a strainer with a cross support (making a rigid platform) - that would be more structurally sound and would be less likely to bow.

There is no way you can move or work on this piece with one person. I think you are underpricing this job by at least $700.

Will the frame OD fit though your door once it is finished? Your client's door?

Who will transport it? How?
Where will you put it when it is finished?
Can you afford to stop everything you are doing while working on this? I think you are VERY optimistic @ only two days on your fitting table :)
If so, will the revenue created by this job offset what you would have been making on the other jobs you won't be working on?
Where will you store the acrylic while you are waiting to fit this job?
Do you have a fitting table big enough to work on/around?
Do you have help that can move/lift something this big?
 
I think you've got it covered, Dave.

Depending on the fabric... for instance if you are using a #814 Pigskin Pecan football looking fabric from Raphael's... I'd use polyflute board cross grained instead of foam core. It's less expensive and would be thinner and more rigid than cross grained foam-cor. With the texture on the fabric you shouldn't see any of the corrugation. Although this particular fabric doesn't come 72" wide.

The polyflute glues together well with Frank's Fabric Adhesive even if sectioned to get to the full size.

I didn't run the math, but I'd be sure to include something for the oversize work so make sure you charge enough to cover any contingencies and for the additional labor of working so large.

Are you delivering or installing the piece?

I agree with Rob that you are probably priced too low.
 
Delivery is on top of this and involves renting a u-haul for the short trip from the shop to the clients home. The total OD for his will 76" x 76" so going though any door won't be a problem. As to how I came up with the pricing, I don't think that should be discussed here.
 
Rob Markoff said:
I would use at a minimum, Rhino board or Gator. If you use Gator, you can use contact cement to glue it to a strainer with a cross support (making a rigid platform) - that would be more structurally sound and would be less likely to bow.
Click to expand...

Are you still overlapping the gator? or by gluing it to strainer with cross support are you able to do away with the second layer.
 
I would use 3/16 acrylic just to save that bit of weight. Are you considering UV acrylic? I think your price is too low also. I know the cost of the acrylic and considering all the other special things you are doing, this price just isn't enough, in my opinion.
 
I was considering it till my supplier (Peidmont Platics) told me that I would have to order 70 sheets of it and there would be at least a 4 week lead time. I am sure that others could supply it, but then you get into shipping and crating etc.
 
FrameMakers said:
I was considering it till my supplier (Peidmont Platics) told me that I would have to order 70 sheets of it and there would be at least a 4 week lead time. I am sure that others could supply it, but then you get into shipping and crating etc.
Click to expand...

Not expecting to get any more jobs like this in in the next couple weeks?

;)

I bet if you call around, Dave, you'd be able to find someone else to deliver 3/16" in that size. It'd be worth it both for cost and weight.
 
Dave said:
Not expecting to get any more jobs like this in in the next couple weeks?

;)

I bet if you call around, Dave, you'd be able to find someone else to deliver 3/16" in that size. It'd be worth it both for cost and weight.
Click to expand...

I was speaking of a UV filtering acrylic. I am actually surprised that many of these posts suggest using a thinner acrylic. I always thought on a job this size that 1/4" is the minimum that you would want.
 
Hugh's rule of thumb for acrylicthickness is:

Up to 40" shortest dim =1/8"
40'To 60" = 3/16"
+ 60" 1/4"


This is the standard that museum's use. I would wager that 3/16" would be fine though with the additional supports you are doing. 1/4" is very heavy.

 
FrameMakers said:
I am actually surprised that many of these posts suggest using a thinner acrylic. I always thought on a job this size that 1/4" is the minimum that you would want.
Click to expand...
Yes, me too. Mechanical deflection is what most framers think about, but acrylic also responds to humidity and will bow toward the humid side.
 
Are you planning to use spacers that are stuck to the frame permanently
or some that can be removed should the acrylic ever get scratched?
 
Are you going to have a seam where the foam is put together or is the fabric thick enough to hide it? Price sounds good to me. As far as plex thickness goes, I never have a problem over- engineering. It will be heavy, but use a cleat hanger and you should be good. The reason I ask about the seam is because I'd like to get input on hiding that myself.
 
Rob has mentioned spackling the seam, but I am guessing that is using gator board.
 
The best results I have achieved are from using a fabricated strainer with cross supports.

We use natural Gator and contact cement it to the strainer.

We make a saw cut about 1" in from the factory edge so we have the cleanest joint possible and also eliminate thickness variations as we find the factory edge is sometimes a bit thinner than further in.

We overlap the outside of the strainer by about 1" making it easier to align the gator to the contact cemented strainer (you only get one attempt) and then trim the edge flush with a router and a flush trimming bit.

The seam is usually very tight, but we then use hot mud (either 5 minute or 20 minute depending on the size of the platform- we mostly use 5 minute now as we are more experienced. First timers may like the extended open time of 20 minute as it is more forgiving.)

It isn't just the seam we are filling but the area adjacent to the joint, so we use a broad drywall knife and extend the filler about 3" on either side of the seam. When dry, we use a block sander with 100 grit paper to level it off.

Then we gesso the entire platform using a good quality sandable gesso (it makes a difference, cheap gesso is worthless). The gesso also gives a greater open time for the adhesive thereby giving more workability.

We prefer Frank's Fabric Adhesive. For a large platform, scale your applicator to the size of the job. A 3" roller cover is fine for small liners, but for a large platform, we use a 7" or even a 9". We use a generous amount and let it tack up, then roll the fabric onto the platform. The adhesive is heat reactivatible so after we burnish the fabric down, we use a warm iron (and a pressing cloth if it is a darker fabric to avoid shiny spots) and thoroughly iron the fabric down.

If done properly, the seam will be imperceptible and the entire platform rigid and strong, and much easier to fit.

If you are going to use pocket screws (Kreg or Castle) it is important (and especially in the case of Castle screws) to cut the pocket holes before attaching the gator to the platform. You have less opportunity to damage the gator.
 
I also would vote for cross lam of CoreX. A sign supply should put
4 sheets of 48x96 4mm in your door for about $12+/- per.
Our supplier said that is pretty much the cost across the country.
(BTW for Mods.... that is a retail price. We don't get a break until
we hit the 500 sheets a month......)

As Dave said, roll and mount with Frank's. For a solid back fabric
there is a couple of natural linens. But everything else stops in
the 54" wide range.

3/16" won't ripple much..... but 1/4 would save you from any....
better to pick up that extra 12lbs now... then do it all over again.

You are going to use Wall Buddies . . right? :thumbsup:

Personally... having done a few things like this..... IMHO.... you're
about $1,200 short..... but you decide next month. Keep track
of your labor time.... that is what will bite you.
 
I use a lot of Coroplast. I have never been able to cut a straight line parallel to the flutes, let alone two cuts that would be able to be butted up adjacent to each other without a gap somewhere along the joint. For those who use poly, please share your secret. Even if we use a table saw or a router, we usually get a cross flute cut. We also find there are "highs and lows" that will telegraph through most fabrics, especially at the joint.

I use Coroplast brand and also Interpro and also have never found the surfaces to be as smooth as Gator, nor have found that even 4mm cross glued to be as rigid as 3/16" gator attached to a strainer (that is already being used in the job).

I am wary of using heat on polypropylene and should the glue dry too fast, or if a bubble develops later, repair is iffy.

Serious question to those recommending polyflute as a substrate on something this large, how many have you done? Have you tried Gator?

Dave, the materials cost on a job like this aren't your enemy, time is. Why spend the time to glue up poly when you are also using a strainer? Why not just glue down something way more rigid, that will be thinner than 8mm of poly PLUS your strainer, is more forgiving and workable, will be flatter and stronger?

Whatever you do, fome-cor is a problem waiting to happen.
 
Sorry Baer, Rob wins this round :)

BTW, I am still waiting on the customer to respond. Maybe if he doesn't like the price, I will send him to this thread to let him know what a great deal he is getting. :icon21:
 
Framing just seems to get bigger and bigger these days. Collecting new techniques as I find or invent them. Today will receive plexi to finish a piece 48" X 103" - double mats. Last month it was 39" x 120".
 
Never have used the Cor-X on a project this big employing fabric wrapping. I agree Rob's method with gator is better since you would have to join the polyflute somehow and would have a seam show depending on what fabric you use. Much more costly though.

I'm doing a project now using the polyflute, but it is only 59" x 39" and therefore I don't have a seam on the front board. The fabric is a heavily textured football like leather and doesn't show any of the flutes.
 
I don't think it is a contest with winners and losers-

Dave said:
.........but it is only 59" x 39"
Click to expand...

Sounds cool, Dave. Please post pics when done.

Anything less than 40 x 60 though is a completely different story when it comes to time and materials.

Another advantage to the unitized platform is that it is much easier to carry and can be stood up/leaned against a wall without worry that it will bow (in the event you find you suddenly need your fitting table back - like for peeling the paper off the acrylic - or, if other customer work comes in that you HAVE TO work on :).

Here's a ten footer that a framer just posted they are working on. It's bigger than their fitting table.

flag_zpsf6dd252f.jpg
 
What is ACM?
 
I have a question: All of the advice on this thread has been most instructive. What has not been addressed is the use of a spacer. What type of spacer will you use? On a job this large, I would be fearful of using spacers. I would worry about eventual bowing of the acrylic in the middle of the piece.

What is the reason for not considering Direct Contact Overlay? Are the pennants to overlap each other creating varying thicknesses? Are there other items in the layout?

I don't remember the exact size of the attached full size Olympic flag, but it was too big to fit through our doors and the client's doors, and had to be jobbed out to a framer that had a warehouse set up. It took at least a month to frame, two months including ordering of custom fabricated parts. The acrylic weighed more than any other part of the job. The strainers were fabricated metal. There were no spacers involved, just a flag sewn down in strategic places and sandwiched in between a padded fabric base and the acrylic. This was many years ago, and I don't remember what the base was made of. The installers got behind the wall to secure the custom made cleats which were installed top and bottom. Getting that sucker to line up with the cleats was not an easy task even with all of the people you see involved.

72 x 72 is not this large, of course, but all of Rob's precautions should be carefully considered.

Dave, I can't wait for pictures. Rob, you MUST teach an oversized framing class.
 

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Kirstie, none of the pennants are very large, they are you standard size souvenir pennants that would have been sold at a game. Approximation 30" x 10"

As to spacers, I am going to use a black moulding that is 3/4" deep.

I am confident on everything but the backing material and mounting the fabric to it. Rob's answered that question for me, it is just a matter of doing this.

As to the ACM mentioned above, I have not been able to find this material larger than 48" wide. I can get it up to 120" x 48" but that doesn't do me any good on this project. I could also consider using a thin layer of acrylic as the backing, but that will add quite a bit more to the weight.
 
I did a similar sized frame last year. It was a big map printed on two rolls 36" wide. :icon11: Tricky bit was splicing the two halfs together.
I used 3mm acrylic which was not a problem as it was in direct contact so the vacuum effect stopped any bowing, bit I digress.......

I made a strainer frame from 4"x 1/2" timber. I had the sneaky idea of laminating this timber so I could form half-lap joints at the corners. Much stronger than miters and done this way no tricky cutting needed and laminating the timber made the whole thing very stable. Just cut four rails with square ends. Glue/Screw the overlapping corners together making sure the diagonals are equal. Then add two cross pieces, again overlapping. When that's done, fill in the gaps to make it 1" thick all over. It was quick to do.

The outer frame was fairly meaty, but the job would have been just as strong with a diddly little moulding (as long as it was deep enough to swallow the strainer). I made and assembled the whole thing single handed, although I do have arms like a gibbon. Only when it was all done did I need a hand to shift it off the bench. ;)
 
Thanks for all the help and ideas, but the client just stopped in and said that he couldn't/wouldn't be able to swing the $2300.

To top it off, he still wants me to try to come up with a different idea that would lower the cost.....yea right.
 
Chalk it up to research. At least we had a good and informative discussion!

:icon10:
 
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