45ish degrees

Create a Post
J

Jay H

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Posts
9,908
Location
KY
I am having a problem with my morso chopper. Is there any type of adjustment I can make to make this thing cut 45 degrees instead of 47? I just chopped a 2" frame and joined three sides. The fourth isn't even in the ball park of fitting. I chopped a different piece of moulding and carefully took some measurements and its off 1/8" before it leaves my guide on my V-nailer. HELP
help.gif
 
There is a front fence on each side that should be adjustable.

I would get a "machinest" triangle to set the angle. They are metal and less apt to be inaccurate.
 
Apon further inspection I have noted that when I complete the chop (meaning my foot is on the ground) there is gap at the rabbit side of the moulding and the blade. Its like the blade isn't straight or its "pushing" my moulding away or something like that????
 
This can happen from bad adjustment of the rabbet support or from dull blades. There are also some hardwoods, maple for instance, that are considerably more difficult to chop than others and will amplify the effects of bad alignment or dull blades.
 
Well I think that they might be dull. I have re-adjusted the blades 3 times. I have no tools that will tell me they are off. Plus as I push down on the blades and watch the blades next to the bottom blades that gap never changes. The cuts seem ok but im outta ideas. I think i'll just go get them sharpened. Thanks.
 
Jay

Try adjusting only the left front fence a little…..forwards or backwards (I cannot recall which is the correct direction).……not sure why it works but it should correct your problem…

Another thing you could try is always mitre the left cut anew, just a shave (just as you would with a new length of moulding) before you push it forward to make the full stick length cut .….

Good luck
 
Jay,

There is no substitute for a good set of calibrating devices to set up your saws, underpinners, and choppers if you have adjustable fences on them. YOu can buy a good 6" engineer's square (part # 24N07.06)from Lee Valley Tools for about 12 bucks. These are calibrated to be within .001" of accuracy.

A good 45&#186 square is also a must have if you want to calibrate your equipment with the upmost accuracy. Grizzly Tools sells an accurate 45&#186 square for $19.95 in their industrial catalog, part #G9637. You can also buy 90&#186 squares from Grizzly Tools. They have a set of 2",3",4" and 6" squares that sell for $14.95.

With these 2 squares, you can effectively calibrate and check the calibration of your chopper or underpinner fences and you will be amazed at the difference it will make.

Adjusting the fences on equipment is only productive when you have a standard to which to adjust them. Simply moving the fences one way or the other is sort of taking pot shots and hoping for the best. With the proper calibration tools which don't cost that much, you have the accurate setting to start with and can then set your fences to that standard.

Framerguy
 
Are you taking to big of a bite out of the moulding. This can cause the wood to pull, leaving the miter off. I always made my next to last bite 1 knotch out from the back and then the last finish cut.
 
If you are having your blades sharpened, be SURE to have them HOLLOW GROUND. It makes all the difference in the world, both in their performance and in longevity of use. I recommend Tech-Mark for this. They are very knowledgeable and skilled, and very nice to deal with.
http://www.tech-mark.com
:cool: Rick
 
Not to over simplify but, is the moulding warped?

If you set the fence with a straight edge like has been suggested and you are holding the moulding tight to it, and there is no movement in the wood. It may just be warped. Look down the long end of it. Your eye dont lie.
 
I'll bet that if you email Morso with this kwery they will email you a spec sheet for sharpening the knives.
 
Jerry, I don't think it's warped plus it was a really small frame like 13x15ish. BUT that does remind me of another question I was going to ask. Do you FORCE warped moulding straight when chopping? I have and dont like the outcome as you can't force it back straight when you join it. Is it better to chop warped moulding in it warped position????

Lance, I did and I hope they will.

I thought the blades that were on it were sharp. I put on the other set of blades I had that were a little sharper and it minimized the problem a little. These blades have a huge nick in them were some knuckle head tried to actually chop they rabbit support with them. It didn't work out to well for the blade.

I used my craftsman tri-square to check the angle on the blade/fence and everthing seemed very aligned. Same for my joiner guide too. Final topic for this thread. Because even dull blades will cut a cavern in your hand how do you know when your blades need to be resharpened???
 
When the cuts are no longer clean, its probably time. (at least that's how we tell here)

We keep 4 sets of blades in stock. When two sets are dull, they get sent together to Tech Mark (to save shipping). The turnaround is about a week and we've been very happy with the results.

Hollow grinding seems to make a huge difference. We were previously getting the knives sharpened locally, and were lucky if they lasted a month between sharpenings. Since we started sending them out, they can go several months. It costs more to have it done right, but you'll save time and money in the long run. (and won't have to handle them as often)
 
I was correct, today……….. I picked my new Morso and included with the instructions is an article published in the “Picture Business” and written by Pete Bingham the UK guy…..I think there is a guy in the US by the same name……the title of the article is “Setting up the Morso”……..and the lead in is……”All adjustments to correct the problem of inaccurate mitres are done with the left hand “fence”……..and so on

I’m sure if you email Dan-List the makers of the Morso they will send it on danlist@morso-guillotines.dk

Alternative if you can wait I hope to have my scanner back up and running next week, I will scan it and happily send it on by email to whoever wants it……..just drop me an email and I will respond.

Rgs.
 
This is from the Morso site and covers sharpening……

http://www.morso-guillotines.dk/faq.htm
• Does the bottom knives require sharpening ?
No - if they are sharpened the measurement will alter. Every pair of bottom knives are individually adjusted to each mitring machine. If the bottom knives are causing problems it is unfortunately necessary fit a replacement set.
• My Morsø EH single phase cuts out occasional
Make sure the amps are correct. The small black switch located in lower right hand corner of the guide must read 10. Further, make sure you don't use an extension cord from the Morsø EH to the power outlet.
• My Morsø EH occasional refuses to advance.
Check to see if there's a loose connection in the right-hand side push-button. (The button must "click" when activating). Also, check to see if a relay needs replacing.
• How do I change knives on my Morsø Mitring Machine
Unfortunately, this is not an easy task, but will be solved by hard work, only. You must be extremely careful making sure the knives are adjusted correct. This can be a very time consuming process - and when handling the knives, watch your fingers. Under no circumstances is any space allowed between the knives.
• When do the knives need resharpening
It depends on the quality of the wood / plastic used. It can be anywhere from after 1000 to 100.000 cuts. As a general rule, the knives need to be resharpened when you're not satisfied with the end result ( to avoid downtime while having your knives resharpened, we recommend you always have a spare set of knives on hand ).
• Who can resharpen my knives
We do, but our distributors are also able to do it for you. We have developed a grinding machine for this specific purpose. To assure your knives are sharpened correctly, the majority of our distributors have this machine.
• How to cut a moulding
You place the moulding in the machine, and adjust the rebate supports according to the moulding. The moulding can be cut either in two cuts or in ''bite by bite cuts''. The size of the moulding determines how many cuts you must have. The wider the moulding is the more cuts you have to make. The adjustment of the knives is made by the handle. No matter how small a moulding is it must always be cut in two cuts, the last cut being the so-called "trim-cut". This cut leaves the surface completely smooth.
 
Dermot said:
I was correct, today……….. I picked my new Morso and included with the instructions is an article published in the “Picture Business” and written by Pete Bingham the UK guy…..I think there is a guy in the US by the same name……the title of the article is “Setting up the Morso”……..and the lead in is……”All adjustments to correct the problem of inaccurate mitres are done with the left hand “fence”……..and so on

I’m sure if you email Dan-List the makers of the Morso they will send it on danlist@morso-guillotines.dk

Alternative if you can wait I hope to have my scanner back up and running next week, I will scan it and happily send it on by email to whoever wants it……..just drop me an email and I will respond.

Rgs.
Click to expand...

Does anyone have this article available? Would like to read it. Having some tweaking problems with my Morsø regarding cut angles.

Have lined up fences from the right most ruler (pinned), but find my joins to be slightly over 90 degrees or open at outermost corner if forced at 90. Using a Hoffmann for joining.

Been playing briefly with the "left hand fence adjustment", but found it difficult to get precise cuts after moving it forward (towards knifes) for just a hair, as the molding can no longer be supported against the fences, as they are no longer parallel. So when molding is almost cut through, it has a tendency to fall back against the fences again. Tips are welcomed. Thanks a lot.
 
David Waldmann said:
Wow, didn't know anything existed from 2004!

I have a set of tips for adjusting here:
http://vermonthardwoods.com/chopper_tips.asp
Click to expand...

Thanks, David. Did come across that page also, when searching for Morsø tips in here. I don't quite see how you support the molding against the fences if they are adjusted (to 45 degree to each knife), and no longer parallel (to each other or the right hand ruler).
 
If the moulding is very wide and/or very stiff, no, you cannot hold it tight to the fence as you start cutting.

You will want to hold the Right side tight, as that is the piece you are completing, and has the stop for the correct length set.

As you get closer to the last "bite" the moulding becomes more "flexible" at that point where it's being cut. When you have taken the next to last bite, you can easily bend it quite a bit (you shouldn't need to bend it quite a bit) so that it's tight to both fences for your last and critical cut.

Hope that helps.
 
You have probably thought of this already but in my experience 99.9% of problems with Morsos, and all the other guillotines for that matter, stem from blunt or poorly sharpened blades or moulding which is too hard for the machine to handle.

This last problem really became commonplace a few years ago with manufacturers armour plating mouldings with up to 1/8 inch of concrete and/or using very hard timber. I also had problems with finger-jointed stretcher bar and slips and was eventually forced to buy a saw. You may cut a few frames with hard timber but the blades will lose their edge quickly and start giving you poor corners.

Another thing to check is that when you fit new blades the bottom plates should be repositioned so that they are perfectly parallel to the blades with a gap of about half a gnat's whisker, ie as close as possible without actually touching.

To check your cut is simple enough - mitre the start of a piece of moulding, holding the wood against the fence with your fingers and pay careful attention to the final shaving cut. If the blade is blunt or misshapen you will feel the wood kick back slightly against your grip. When the cut is complete, lower the blade and push the mitred end up against it, basically using the blade as a square. If there is a tiny gap at the inside edge your blades are the problem, either blunt or poorly sharpened. If the cut is true to the blade then the machine is out of alignment.
 
Are you knives totally worn out - if they are they will not give you an accurate cut. Who sharpened you knives last? did they sharpen the knives together in the same jig so that the grind is exactly the same on both knives? Did you get a Hollow Grind? Talk to Tech Mark and you will probably get the correct answers. They are the only company that I allow to sharpen my knives because they know how to do it correctly, there may be others that can too but I haven't found them in the last 16 years.

There are some minor adjustments that you can make but I don't believe there is much that can be done for the angle except to adjust the fences. Just saying...
 
This is a perennial problem. If the blades are getting blunt, or were incorrectly sharpened in the first
place, they will tend to go 'off track' as they bite. Hard coatings will quickly dull the blade and coarse-grained
woods like pine will deflect a dull blade. More and more of this stuff is being made, mainly for economy reasons.
The companies who make it are not picture framers. :p Some mouldings are made with volume production in mind
where it's cut on massive equipment that can deal with it.


If you start to get gapping on the last corner, you can compensate for this by adjusting the left fence. Don't touch the right one.
Pull the end of the fence toward you. I'm talking minute movements here. Every tweak will be multplied x4 on the frame.
Use a wide, flat piece of timber and cut four short pieces. Align them 'dry' and check the angles. if the gap is on the inside (it usually is),
move the fence toward you a smidge. Recut the four pieces. Test fit again and note any difference. If there is an improvement keep
tweaking the fence and recutting. If you start to get a gap on the outside then you have tweaked too far.

It's a tedious business but when you have done this a few times you will be able to do it by intuition.

The ideal thing is when you have joined three sides the fourth should be ever-so-slightly apart. Pushing it tight will cinch up
all the corners for a good, strong join.

While this method is great for compensating for blades that are starting to dull, you can't go on forever with it. I would start with
fresh set of (correctly ground) blades and when you fit them make sure the fences are inline.

Remember, wood is a natural material and just because you blades are spot-on 45º it doesn't mean they will produce as 45º angle
on a piece of wood. The Morso is a great piece of kit but some mouldings ask too much of it. Woods like Ayous and Obeche and their
ilk are generally fine. If you get a wide moulding based of laminated softwood with heavy plasticy compo you are going to struggle.
Such mouldings are best sawn. Also Oak and other dense woods present a challenge.
 
There are (at least on mine) inscribed lines on the Morso.

(I have highlighted them for clarity)

When these are perfectly aligned then so are the fences. If you adjust the left fence to the point where
the lines don't overlap at some point, that is the time to get the blade sharpened. :D

** Adjusting the right fence will make no difference. It must always line up with the measuring guide.

morsofence01.jpg
 
prospero said:
Use a wide, flat piece of timber and cut four short pieces. Align them 'dry' and check the angles. if the gap is on the inside (it usually is),
move the fence toward you a smidge. Recut the four pieces. Test fit again and note any difference. If there is an improvement keep
tweaking the fence and recutting. If you start to get a gap on the outside then you have tweaked too far.
Click to expand...

A much quicker method is to cut both ends of a single piece WITH THE SAME BLADE, and checking the cut angles with a precision square.

FWIW, we do adjust both fences, using the above method to ensure we have an exact 45° on each side. Back when we had the original Morso fence we would just re-align it if necessary for the right fence. With our current TigerStop system it's unnecessary.
 
Thanks for your feedback. Should have mentioned in my post that the original blades had just had a total service at the manufacturer, hollow grind and the whole nine yards. So all ok there I must presume.

Will try again the left fence tuning, possibly including David’s right fence tuning as well for individual 45 degree precision. Still imagine it difficult to use the measuring stop if right fence is not in line with right hand measuring land. But haven’t had a chance yet to play with it again.
 
If the left blade is not cutting true then it's a fair bet that the right one is as well. The idea of tweaking the left one is
the compensate for both blades. Moving the right fence won't make any difference unless the rail is so short it doesn't
reach the measuring rule. If you moved the right fence you would also have to move the measuring rule. o_O

You might think that only moving the left fence makes the lengths of the two miter faces unequal. And you'd be right. :D
But in practice the difference is so small as to not effect the join alignment.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top