3M Super 77 vs. 3M Vac-U-Mount

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ahohen1

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About 10 years ago i quit using Super 77 spray adhesive and switched to Vac-U-Mount because of what i read on the Vac-U-Mount aerosol can... "A strong professional-grade adhesive developed especially... blah, blah, blah...". I have on display a framed graduation tassel with invitation, photo, name card, etc. which i framed in 1990... 18 years ago. It was framed with regular type mat and regular foam-x. I used Super 77 to mount the invitation (2 parts). The result is the invitation is turning yellow with a very very yellow ring around each piece and the name card. The v-groove is yellow also. Seven years later (1997) i framed another invitation using conservation matboards, acid free matboard, and i also used Super 77 spray adhesive. It is now 11 years since i framed it and it is in super condition. It looks like i just framed it. My question is, WHAT is better to use... Vac-U-Mount or Super 77? Or does it really matter? :shrug:

(I use the display of BOTH of these to show customers WHY i use only high quality matboards, foam-x, etc.)

Thanks. ajh
 
I am confident that Jim Miller will jump in here to tell you that all spray adhesives are evil, so I will leave it for him......

Vac-U-Mount is designed to have a longer open time so that air can escape while the vacuum is being drawn. The particulate is also smaller, and I have found that unless the piece is subjected to pressure, Vac-U-Mount alone is ineffective as it requires the pressure to properly bond. Resin coated and non porous materials require a longer open time so the solvents evaporate before bonding. Vac-u-mount is formulated to allow for longer open time.

Super 77 on the other hand has more solids and more solvents. It is NOT meant to go into a vacuum press as the bond is almost immediate and it is possible for air to be trapped inside the piece being mounted if the perimeter bonds before the center. It is also possible to be in too much of a hurry to bond and solvent trapped will come back to haunt you. Chip board or lower quality substrates also contain materials in them that will also effect the long term bond.

We have a real spray booth (not a cardboard box with a fan) and use spray adhesives regularly with great success. We have been in business for 27 years and do have a track record of spray adhesive use. I don't share Jim's "long term failure" concerns and feel that spray adhesives do have their place so I am not willing to abandon them. Having the proper place to apply them makes a big difference. We do not have an overspray or fume problem and our spray booth is not in our fitting/matting area.

In your application, however, I do not think that a spray adhesive would have been my adhesive of choice. I would probably have used a water based vacuum adhesive or YES! paste- or just hinged the piece properly.


"Acid-free" matboard does not mean anything. A wood pulp mat that has been neutralized still contains lignin. "Regular" fome-cor also yellows with time. The invitation itself may not have been printed on a lignin-free paper. UV light could have also contributed to photo chemical changes. My opinion is that the mounting boards played more of a role in the discoloration than the adhesive.

In the first example, if you used a wood pulp matboard (even if it said "acid free" (i.e. Crescent)) you should EXPECT that the bevel and v-groove will be yellow/brown by now.

Bottom line, if you are framing something like an announcement or invitation for long term, do not use spray adhesives.
 
B-a-a-a-d stuff!!

I'm going to jump in here with a health reason about the evils of any spray adhesives: For many years I used spray adhesives because I had a cold vaccum table, and because then, (25+ years ago) we didn't know any better. What a mess, even though I had a spray booth surrounded by a curtain with a window and a fan venting outside, and wore a mask.

Over the years I developed severe, chronic pulmonary problems...asthma, bronchitis, etc. and every time I got sick, even just a "slight cold" (they never stayed slight!) the only treatment to clear it up was prednisone....oral, anti-inflammatory steroid. I didn't have allergies then, and many years later, my physicians diagnosed my pulmonary problems as caused by all the years of using spray adhesives!

The prednisone eventually caused some of my bones to "melt", literally, and two years ago I had to have both hips completely replaced, and facing knee replacements in the near future. When I got sick this last few months, it was complicated by the scarring of my lungs, and lasted much longer than it should've, had I not had the previous problems.

Ask Kirstie....same experience with the breathing problems for her and Jeff after using spray glue for many years.. They switched to a hot vacuum table last year, and I believe they're already seeing a huge difference, in their health and the cleanliness of their shop as well.

With the self-adhesive foam core boards available now, I can't justify needing any spray adhesive at all, with a rare exception, and then....use it outside!!!
 
Rob Markoff said:
I am confident that Jim Miller will jump in here to tell you that all spray adhesives are evil, so I will leave it for him......

Vac-U-Mount is designed to have a longer open time so that air can escape while the vacuum is being drawn. The particulate is also smaller, and I have found that unless the piece is subjected to pressure, Vac-U-Mount alone is ineffective as it requires the pressure to properly bond. Resin coated and non porous materials require a longer open time so the solvents evaporate before bonding. Vac-u-mount is formulated to allow for longer open time.

Super 77 on the other hand has more solids and more solvents. It is NOT meant to go into a vacuum press as the bond is almost immediate and it is possible for air to be trapped inside the piece being mounted if the perimeter bonds before the center. It is also possible to be in too much of a hurry to bond and solvent trapped will come back to haunt you. Chip board or lower quality substrates also contain materials in them that will also effect the long term bond.

We have a real spray booth (not a cardboard box with a fan) and use spray adhesives regularly with great success. We have been in business for 27 years and do have a track record of spray adhesive use. I don't share Jim's "long term failure" concerns and feel that spray adhesives do have their place so I am not willing to abandon them. Having the proper place to apply them makes a big difference. We do not have an overspray or fume problem and our spray booth is not in our fitting/matting area.

In your application, however, I do not think that a spray adhesive would have been my adhesive of choice. I would probably have used a water based vacuum adhesive or YES! paste- or just hinged the piece properly.


"Acid-free" matboard does not mean anything. A wood pulp mat that has been neutralized still contains lignin. "Regular" fome-cor also yellows with time. The invitation itself may not have been printed on a lignin-free paper. UV light could have also contributed to photo chemical changes. My opinion is that the mounting boards played more of a role in the discoloration than the adhesive.

In the first example, if you used a wood pulp matboard (even if it said "acid free" (i.e. Crescent)) you should EXPECT that the bevel and v-groove will be yellow/brown by now.

Bottom line, if you are framing something like an announcement or invitation for long term, do not use spray adhesives.
Click to expand...

Rob, I meant "acid-free foam-x", NOT acid-free matboard. (Seven years later (1997) i framed another invitation using conservation matboards, acid free matboard, and i also used Super 77 spray adhesive.) I have been using spray adhesive in a well ventilated area. No problems with adhesive "all over the place". I might purchase a "hot vacuum" press in the next year or two.
 
I also used spray-mount for many years, starting in the 1970's. Back then, I switched to Vacumount from 77 spray for a few simple reasons. The main one being, it seemed 'lighter' -- the 77 spray is THICK. And using a vacuum press, it was the 'suggested' spray. Both seemed to give the same results. I miss the ease and simplicity of the spray stuff, but my lungs are sure happier.
 
Since mounting with a vacuum requires neither heat nor solvents and it can work with starch based adhesives, it should be seriously considered, where mounting is needed.



Hugh
 
like vacumont MUCH MORE than 77. I had a salesguy give me some samples of a "multi-purpose spray adhesive' ---from max-professional.com in ft. lauderdale....i really like the stuff---goooood hold on eveything I've tried it on. doesnt seem to bleed thru thin paper...open time is kinda 'short'...time will tell but I put a paper to FC example in my car last summer for about 2 months----no bleed and remain stuck
 
Rob said "I would probably have used a water based vacuum adhesive... etc...." Does any company make a water based vacuum adhesive in a spray can? Who? Thanks. I am willing to try it. (I tried a "paste" applied my hand a few years ago and hated the stuff.) Thanks for any info.
 
ahohen1 said:
...(I tried a "paste" applied my hand a few years ago and hated the stuff.) Thanks for any info.
Click to expand...

Why did you hate the stuff?

I've been using water-based paste for vacuum-wet mounting for as long as I've had vacuum presses, and I like it. No mess, faster prep than assembling a dry mount 'sandwich', and less prone to the dry mounting faults caused by incorrect time, temp, pressure, or moisture.

Unlike solvent-based or pressure-sensitive adhesives, wet paste will not deteriorate over time, and will not migrate.

My suggestion is to get a Tupperware marinating container, which is about 10-1/2"x12-1/2"x4". Put an 8" paint roller in it, with the handle trimmed off just enough that it doesn't fall into the paste, and the lid closes air-tight. Add about a cup of prepared paste, such as SureMount or VacuGlue 300.

When you need to mount, pop the lid off the container, roll on the paste, put the roller back in and reclose the container. NO MESS. Once a year you should replace the roller handle, as it could rust. In 19 years, I've never seen signs of mold or mildew.

Roll the paste onto your oversized mounting board sparingly, just enough that you can see it in reflected light. If needed, blot away excess paste with a sheet of interleaving paper from a glass box. Using too much paste makes a foam board or 4-ply board warp, but you could counter-mount if that is an issue. Position the art paper on the pasted board and lay on a sheet of Kraft paper to keep paste from getting on the lid of your press.

Run the press at full vacuum for about 6 minutes. The bonding takes place in just a couple of minutes, but longer time under vacuum dries the paste. So, when it comes out of the press, it is almost dry. Remove from the press, carefully take off the paper overlay, and trim to proper size.

Wet mounting costs a fraction of dry mounting or spray mounting, and it is a low-risk procedure. It takes less time than dry mounting, and involves no toxic chemicals or overspray. Water-reversible, too, but I would not permanently mount anything of value.
 
Jim Miller said:
Why did you hate the stuff?

I've been using water-based paste for vacuum-wet mounting for as long as I've had vacuum presses, and I like it. No mess, faster prep than assembling a dry mount 'sandwich', and less prone to the dry mounting faults caused by incorrect time, temp, pressure, or moisture.

Unlike solvent-based or pressure-sensitive adhesives, wet paste will not deteriorate over time, and will not migrate.

My suggestion is to get a Tupperware marinating container, which is about 10-1/2"x12-1/2"x4". Put an 8" paint roller in it, with the handle trimmed off just enough that it doesn't fall into the paste, and the lid closes air-tight. Add about a cup of prepared paste, such as SureMount or VacuGlue 300.

When you need to mount, pop the lid off the container, roll on the paste, put the roller back in and reclose the container. NO MESS. Once a year you should replace the roller handle, as it could rust. In 19 years, I've never seen signs of mold or mildew.

Roll the paste onto your oversized mounting board sparingly, just enough that you can see it in reflected light. If needed, blot away excess paste with a sheet of interleaving paper from a glass box. Using too much paste makes a foam board or 4-ply board warp, but you could counter-mount if that is an issue. Position the art paper on the pasted board and lay on a sheet of Kraft paper to keep paste from getting on the lid of your press.

Run the press at full vacuum for about 6 minutes. The bonding takes place in just a couple of minutes, but longer time under vacuum dries the paste. So, when it comes out of the press, it is almost dry. Remove from the press, carefully take off the paper overlay, and trim to proper size.

Wet mounting costs a fraction of dry mounting or spray mounting, and it is a low-risk procedure. It takes less time than dry mounting, and involves no toxic chemicals or overspray. Water-reversible, too, but I would not permanently mount anything of value.
Click to expand...

I hated the stuff the first time i used it because i tried it on a blank piece of typing paper... i rolled it on the paper and the paper was absorbing the glue. The next try was to roll the glue on the foam board... the paper absorbed the glue again, but not quite as bad. I then applied the glue to the foam board again, but this time let it dry just a few seconds (about 30-45) and the paper was hardly glued down at all... i was able to remove it without tearing the paper. With Vac-U-Mount or Super 77 all i had to do was spray the back of the page, allow to dry for about a minute, place it on the foam board, then put it in the vacuum press for about 2 minutes... no problems at all. If you have a big poster to mount on a foam board i assume you have to work super fast before the water-based glue starts to dry. Correct? (Since i tried it [almost 25 years ago], has the glue been improved in allowing you have a little more time spare time before it starts to dry?)
 
ahohen1 said:
I hated the stuff the first time i used it because... i rolled it on the paper and the paper was absorbing the glue. The next try was to roll the glue on the foam board... the paper absorbed the glue again...I then applied the glue to the foam board again, but this time let it dry just a few seconds (about 30-45) and the paper was hardly glued down at all...
Click to expand...

It seems you gave up before you learned how to do it right, which is truly unfortunate. Of all the permanent vacuum-mounting methods; dry mounting, wet mounting, spray mounting, and pressure-sensitive (PMA) mounting; wet mounting is the least invasive, least risky, most permanent, and cheapest.

For every typical poster you've spray mounted instead of wet mounted in all those 25 years, you might have saved about $0.50 in adhesive alone. Let's see...if you mounted 10 times a week for 25 years, that's about $6,500 saved -- roughly the price of a new vacuum press.

I don't know how the wet pastes were 25 years ago. I've only been using them for about 19 years, but they haven't changed in that time.

If you roll the paste onto the board sparingly, but get the mounting area completely covered, you probably have about 1 minute to get the assembly into the press. However, I usually have it in the press within 20 seconds, which allows plenty of time to position the print and lay on the Kraft paper cover sheet.
 
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