Opinions Wanted Giclee printing and Certificates of Authenticity

Create a Post
D_Derbonne

D_Derbonne

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 12, 2001
Posts
5,389
Location
Middleburg, FL
Business
semi retired
An artist friend of mine had someone photograph some of her paintings and print canvas giclees.
She was satisfied with the quality and price but it took a month to get them and when she did he did not provide a certificate of Authenticity. He told her that was up to the artist to provide but finally agreed to provide them.

Fast forward 2 weeks and she still doesn't have them. Her client is wondering where they are.

When she asked him today when she might expect them she was told that he didn't want to give her a date because if they weren't done then she would be disappointed.

My opinion is that he is just putting her off and is behaving unprofessionally but thought I might get more knowledge from some of you that provide this kind of service.

So, what is a normal turnaround time to have a piece of art photographed and prints made? and is it normal to have the printer provide the certificate?
 
As far as the certificate it would depend on what the artist was purchasing. If it was contracted then they should have been provided on the same day as the prints/canvas. Different states have differing laws around the certificate of authenticity but those apply to the publisher/artist and not the printer specifically. In states where they are required if the publisher was the printer they would need to be completed before any piece is offered for sale. The publisher would be the entity offering the items for sale.
 
Okay, so it wasn't specified either way in advance.
Her experience with other printers was that they provided the certificate.

My thought is that he agreed to this after the fact and is now stalling.

It sounds like you're saying she has no recourse this time and will have to make sure that everything is spelled out in the future.
 
Yes it needs to be in contract form or at least part of the work order. Artists tend to chase prices and extras like a proper certificate can make a big difference in the price. A quality certificate can add a significant amount to the cost of the job. There are a ton of people who own large format printers that are offering the prints on canvas and the prices are all over the board.

A proper certificate needs to be well thought out in advance. The certificate should be very specific as to the number of signed and numbered pieces as well as artists proofs. The cert should also indicate any intention of future offerings such as paper editions whether signed and numbered or open editions. It also needs to identify any possibility of the image being used as a poster.

Depending on the state in which the artist is located they may also have the requirement of record keeping as to who the items were first sold. Again the state laws vary quite a bit but the artist/publisher may be required to maintain the database for a long period of time and in a certain manner.
 
Of course there is the perspective that this printer never offered certificates and shouldn't be expected to provide them after the fact. You used the term "He told her that was up to the artist to provide but finally agreed to provide them." Maybe the real problem was allowing her to talk him into creating a product he never intented to provide, again after the fact.

Now here's an opinion that was never asked for:

Originally certificates were signed by the printer, publisher, and artist stating they all witnessed the destructions of the printing plates, so no more artwork could/would be printed. In today's world of technology outpacing the sales of many images then there is a moral delima of a limited edition being offered at all. Most artist will not sell out of an edition before a new printer with better inks and finer spray patterns produces prints that are distinctly different/better from the lower number prints.
 
Goodtwin said:
Most artist will not sell out of an edition before a new printer with better inks and finer spray patterns produces prints that are distinctly different/better from the lower number prints.
Click to expand...

Limited edition prints should all be printed at the same time so there is no distinguishable difference from the first to the last including every print in between. This was the purpose of the artists proofs so they could assure that there was no deterioration in the plates during the printing process. Printing them on an as sold basis is very amateur at best and once again may be prohibited in certain states by law.
 
Thanks for your answers. I've passed this information on to the artist and she will have everything in writing in the future.
She will also likely be going to a printer that is just that, a printer, rather than someone that wears more than one hat.
 
As someone who makes Inkjet prints I was curious about your issue. I've never been asked to provide a COA.

With existing technology related to scanning, photo capture and short run "Giclee" printing I'm not sure any Certificate would mean anything.

I thought this was good information.

http://www.artbusiness.com/certaut.html

Doug
 
The printer is just that...the printer. He is neither the publisher nor the artist. The COA is up to the artist.
Next you need to understand what the COA is...it verifies or confirms...Authenticity. In its simplest form Authenticity states that the work of art is by a particular artist or from a specific region or historical period. The person providing the COA must have knowledge of and have enough experience with the artist to show expertise. Who better than the artist themselves to provide a COA on their own work.
When working with limited edition prints, collectors like to see all of the edition and printing information also. This lends more credibility to the [art] artist, printer and publisher. (who all can be one in the same).
Here is one site I found http://www.worldprintmakers.com/english/certauth.htm that seems to give a good explanation. Some lines do not apply to Giclee prints but it can be modified to meet your needs.
One other site I found interesting is: http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/index.jsp?cp=20000-20058-20295-20457%5E298704_4041_100__&zn=gap

I hope this helps clear up what a COA actually is.
 
Perhaps "certificate of authenticity" is the wrong term. She wants a certificate that states how the print was made. What kind of inks were used, etc.
If I'm not mistaken she is not selling numbered editions. She has been signing certificates to say that they are approved by the artist.

My opinion was that if the person printing did not want to supply a certificate he should have said "no".

When he agreed to provide it should be done in a timely fashion. To tell her that he couldn't give her a time frame because he might not have it done is not professional.

Provide the service or not. Be honest about it but don't give someone the run around.

As I said, I'm passing along the opinions here so she can learn.
 
Let me give you a little perspective from the printers end. First of all I now absolutely refuse to print on canvas for artists any longer. They want to dictate the manner in which I print down to providing the best quality money can buy for a fraction of my actual cost.

The texture of the canvas must match their exact specs but cost the same as the carp they buy from a factory in Mexifornia. They want it laminated but won't pay for laminate. They want it heavily clear coated but not be charged for clear coating.

I purchased a gallery wrap machine and gave it to one of my sales reps a month later just so I would never have to speak to an artist about gallery wraps ever again. He asked how much or what I wanted for it and I just told him to get it out of the building and we would worry about it at a later date. Over a year went by before we even discussed what he would give me for it. Every day that it was in my store cost me at least a hundred dollars in wasted time talking to artists about gallery wraps that they would never pay a fair price to have done.

There are large numbers of professional service providers that offer printing on canvas and artists fall into one of two groups. The first is those who will find a professional provider and stick with them because of the quality and consistency of the product. The second group is always looking for a cheaper price and always complains about the quality and service.

Your artist friend had somebody that was providing the service they were looking for but later switched to somebody that I am sure was cheaper and now is surprised that they got their money's worth. Most artists believe that printing on canvas should be cheap to produce but quality is not cheap and cheap is not quality. 99% of the prints on canvas that I see today have one of many quality shortfalls. Nearly no boarder for stretching. Not laminated or clear coated well enough to be stretched properly. Cheap canvas material that will stretch an inch or more beyond the original size. Mirrored edges for gallery wraps that look as if a ten year old produced them.

Artists chasing cheap prices are their own worst enemies. Wal-Mart produces a better quality canvas print than the majority of printed canvasses that I see on a regular basis. Tell your artist friend to find a high quality provider and pay a premium price and the product will be consistent. Google White House Custom Color and you will see what professionals pay for printed canvas. You can get them cheaper but they are just cheaper and not quality products.
 
Jeff, I understand the problems you've encountered with many artists.


You made the decision to not provide a particular service based on your experiences. I'm guessing that until you made that decision you did the job as you promised and delivered in a timely fashion.


Thanks for the information and your perspective on my question.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
Limited edition prints should all be printed at the same time so there is no distinguishable difference from the first to the last including every print in between. This was the purpose of the artists proofs so they could assure that there was no deterioration in the plates during the printing process. Printing them on an as sold basis is very amateur at best and once again may be prohibited in certain states by law.
Click to expand...

Jeff... Actually in the traditional print making process the plates do deteriorate during the printing process. The earliest prints in an addition are extremely crisp and during the printing process the image becomes softer and eventually loses quite a bit of definition.

The lower the number print will often bring the higher price but that is purely marketing. Usually the best quality prints are somewhere about a third into the edition of non-digital prints because the plates have smoothed out a bit giving softer medium tones but still maintaining a crisp image without any plate abberations which are now worn down a bit. Indeed, with traditional printing processes, especially intaglio or stone litho printing, each print is considered an original by most collectors.

Artist Proofs are prints that are run at the beginning of the printing process, usually with the artist present to approve the colors and quality of the printing. Once the artist approves the process and the desired number of AP prints are run the general printing process begins.

Digital printing turns all this upside down. Once the artist approves a proof the edition is run and all prints are nearly identical. No deterioration (or improvement) of the image quality occurs and the order of numbering means nothing other than for marketing purposes very unlike the traditional printing processes.
 
Thinking about the OP's reluctant printer.

It could be that issuing a statement (COA) about the printing process may not enhance the value of the work.

It could also be that the print was made using dye inks (much cheaper than pigment ink) and therefore doesn't qualify as a long lasting "Giclee"

For example, at different times I print using Epson Proofing paper, Liberty OEM canvas or Pakor OEM luster. None of these papers have any status in the Art world. I also print using Conecolor bulk pigment inks,........... hardly impressive to a potential art buyer.

Doug
 
I do not understand this. Why can the artist not make up a certificate with all of the desired information on it? Nearly everyone has a computer with some sort of word processing program and a cheap printer.

How complicated does this have to be? In my humble years of experience, unless we are talking about really high end expensive artwork (such as something auctioned by Sotheby's), the general public does not give a hoot one way or another about certificates of authenticity.

Well, unless they bought it on a cruise ship, LOL!
 
Mar, evidently her client does care about the certificates.
I suggested she print them herself and that is likely what she will do.
 
Dave, when I was taking printmaking in college, the very beginnings of obfuscation by makers of limited edition reproductions was evident. The professors encouraged us to refer to our art as "original prints" or "multiple originals" because of exactly what you said about plate wear, and the fact that artists are not machines so it is practically impossible for the plate to be inked in exactly the same manner each time an image is pulled.

Back to what Deb asked: the technical information is as simple as getting the ink type and paper type from the printer and looking up the information online. For open edition reproductions, I really wouldn't worry that much about it other than from a marketing angle, but for the average customer it probably won't make a difference, and may well confuse them. CoA's are nice, but as evidenced in the mid 80's often not worth the paper they are printed on.
 
Dave said:
Jeff... Actually in the traditional print making process the plates do deteriorate during the printing process. The earliest prints in an addition are extremely crisp and during the printing process the image becomes softer and eventually loses quite a bit of definition.

The lower the number print will often bring the higher price but that is purely marketing. Usually the best quality prints are somewhere about a third into the edition of non-digital prints because the plates have smoothed out a bit giving softer medium tones but still maintaining a crisp image without any plate abberations which are now worn down a bit. Indeed, with traditional printing processes, especially intaglio or stone litho printing, each print is considered an original by most collectors.

Artist Proofs are prints that are run at the beginning of the printing process, usually with the artist present to approve the colors and quality of the printing. Once the artist approves the process and the desired number of AP prints are run the general printing process begins.

Digital printing turns all this upside down. Once the artist approves a proof the edition is run and all prints are nearly identical. No deterioration (or improvement) of the image quality occurs and the order of numbering means nothing other than for marketing purposes very unlike the traditional printing processes.
Click to expand...

30 years ago I had a couple of opportunities to have conversations with Edward Weston and he was telling me how the lower numbers are often the last off the press. A/P's got pulled at intervals during the printing process to make sure an edition didn't need to be cut short. If he had planned 500 but found the quality was dropping after 200 the edition size would be changed to 200 for the release. Every publisher does things the way they do them so all of the so called rules are not factual. The P/P's were the official okey dokey as to the ready to go and A/P's were a quality check along the way.
 
You are right, Jeff. There really is no standard procedure that everyone follows in the same way.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top