How's the cmc doing?

[po' framer]

Framer

It's been a while now since you made the Wizard rental decision. How's it looking now? I noticed that Wizard has got all these clipart downloads now and all, as well. Have you used any of those?

[framer]

I'm sold! Get one anyway you can. Yes! I love the clip art and have done several. The multi opening multi layers is where it shines. I did a 5 opening 2 layer mat while the customer waited last Saturday. Total time about 5 minutes.

I do a lot of fillets and it cut the opening so perfect I size one piece of fillet and cut two, both sides are the same size, I save about 30% of the time it takes on my fillets.

framer

[PAMELA DESIMONE,CPF]

I installed one last Novenber. My dad installed it, rather. I learned to use it on my own in no time flat. A real time saver. Don't know how I got along without it all these years.

[cody]

They named it right "Wizard". It's our dream machine. Coming up on a year with it.

Cody

[Margaret]

I got mine at about the same time as Framer. I love the CMC, but apparently spend a whole lot more time on multi's. I find them time consuming to lay out--minutes to hours, depending on the design. -----"alignment", "crosshair", I don't comprehend either in theory, and fuddle through the whole process.

I find some of the CMC capabilites limited. I did a newspaper that had one indented corner. Ended up doing it the old way by hand. I don't have CADD--I was told if you are not comfortable with compuerts, forget it.

Maybe computer people can figure it all out, but I need simplicity. I still don't understand the multi-op use (I did the tutorials)------clip art-- I am not even there.

I never thought I'd use the corners a month I am using, and find myself being stingy with them. I had to buy extra corners the first month. I also didn't know cutting the outside of the mat was a 4 corner deduct, each time you cut a mat.
I tried cutting to size, -- only cutting the opening--the borders were off by 1/4" most times.

So I have a love, and some other kind of relationship with my Wizard---"I love you, but you need to do what I want, when I want it, and right now---with less corners and less time...............of course"!!!!!!

Sorry to grumble...............I do love my CMC, but expected more simplicty than I received. Then I hear about all this 5 minute design and cut of multi-op mats. Maybe I am to DAH for this technology!?

[Jana]

Margaret, our borders are off by about !/8" whenever we don't cut the outside of the mat. It's a pain. Not sure how to fix it.I usually end up trimming the mat a little with an exacto knife. That's progress?

Basically, I like the Wizard and am glad we have it. I hardly remember how to cut mats on a regular mat cutter.

I like the bevel that the CMC does, too. It's wider than on hand cut mats.

I like the multi-opening aspects, but kinda wish for the old program. Why do they have that fishnet design on two of the margins? Is it really necessary?

[cody]

Margaret: For the indented corners you just have to overlap two openings. Takes a little practice, but it works. I don't know CADD either and have trouble with crosshairs. There are other ways of doing things on the machine. I took out my instruction manual and went to their sample multi-opening section and followed one example all the way through. It really helped. Now I still don't comprehend the crosshairs but found another way to do multi's without it. Good luck.

Cody

[framer]

On the wizard when it cuts a 16 x 20, it cuts it 15 7/8 x 19 7/8. When you cut the outside cut it 1/8 smaller than what you put in the machine. The boarders are then the same.

I've been meaning to discuss this with Wizard.

[Frugal Framer]

Wizard borders off by small amount...

There was a calibration procedure, buried deeply in the manual, for adjusting the Wizard to eliminate this problem. I don't remember whether it was a mechanical or keyboard entry to solve the problem. It might be time consuming to resolve, but eliminating this error will save major headaches over time.

Rick

[FramerDave]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by framer:
On the wizard when it cuts a 16 x 20, it cuts it 15 7/8 x 19 7/8. When you cut the outside cut it 1/8 smaller than what you put in the machine. The boarders are then the same.

I've been meaning to discuss this with Wizard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's always been like that and prolly always will. They call it an "undocumented feature."
As for the newspaper, they do have a template made for that, where you adjust all the sizes to show headlines, etc. I think it's called newspaper, not near the machine now so not sure which template number.

[JRB]

OK kids, the Wizard is just like any other tool, you've gots to give it time.
Take your problems with it and spend the time to solve them as they occur. Start with the manual, then call Wizard help desk. Take them one at a time and make a project of solving that particular problem. My first two years with my Wizard was some what of a pain. I found a lot of the time it was malfunctioning equipment and the parts had to be replaced.
This machine is well worth the trouble. Whatever you do, don't let the problems multiply, you will end up very frustrated and Td off at Wizard, life is way to short for that.

John

[Scarfinger]

One day when I was really ticked off at the Wizard I happened to go see a demo of another machine. I bought it on the spot and sent the Wiz packing. As above - life is too short!!

[carladea]

We have had our Wizard for about 6 months now and couldn't live withut it. My wrists are shot!

Like all new technology, there are small problems, most of which can be figured out with time and practice. My husband is very computer literate and pretty much learned and taught me. He does a lot of work on the vcadd and while the first jobs took a while, he is pretty quick now (though it did take a while for him to do a really awesome wolf paw).

Like anything, practice make perfect. We purchased our machine--We use way too many corners to worry about them. It is also easier to practice on fun things without worrying about using up 128 corners for one mat. I do know this is not a viable option for a lot, and I think the rental idea is a good one.

Keep trucking with the Wizard and it will prove to be your best friend.

[Magaret]

What great encouragemant! And Cody, thanks for the tip on overlapping two openings. I never in a million years would have thought of it. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. I'll keep hanging in there-- would hate to go back to the "old" way. thanks!

[po' framer]

Well, it certainly seems as if everyone is sold on their cmc. I had asked framer specifically about his Wizard deal and gots lots of cool responses! Thanks, everyone, and if there's any other stuff to mention please keep adding it in.

The one constant I keep hearing is: I love my cmc and wouldn't want to do without it, but there's something about it which really irritates me. Whether it's programming, calibration, bad pieces or just trying to get up to speed when I'm busy working and don't have time to fool with it, there really is that one constant.

I personally don't think it's right that you have to pay significant money and then figure out ways to work around the damned thing by adding inches here and there; pardon my French. And pardons to the French for saying "Pardon my French." I wonder from where THAT saying came.

John Baker and Scarfinger, as usual, really had salient points. Don't live with the problems; get them fixed or get another system.

Another good point was all the corners you will cut while you're learning; makes you feel that possibly negotiating a "training package" of corners wouldn't be such a bad idea... say unlimited corners for a month or so for a certain price. Also, it seems that if you're coming close to the corner ceiling amounts, that you're better off to cut the outsides by hand. Particular if the d_____d thing won't cut them to the right size anyway.

One issue which is kind of a Fletcher/ Eclipse (maybe Wizard, too, I don't know)thing has peripherally caught my attention, but I haven't researched it enough to understand it well. What's the difference between servo and ... well, non-servo systems? Is this considered to be a reliability issue, an accuracy issue or both?

[PAMELA DESIMONE,CPF]

The reason I buy major purchases as shows is for the free "extras". I rented the Wiz at the Atlanta show, so I received a month of free corners, plus an extra box of blades.
For $.20, I'll let the machine cut the outside of the mat for me.

[po' framer]

That certainly makes sense. I didn't know what the corners cost.

On another note, I can see Wizard must be reading the grumble, framer. I started this topic just a few days ago and today I got this huge Wizard packet in the mail.

Is this one of those cosmic coincidences or something?

[osgood]

I am soon to join the ranks of CMC owner. Wizard has no rental plan down here in The Land of Oz...its purchase or nothing. The price is too much for me to finance.
I have opted for a Gunnar Rapido about 12 months old for a much better price & includes new warranty.
Are there any Gunnar Rapido owners out there?

[Jana]

Scarfinger, which cmc did you buy and why?

[Jean McLean]

Are corners and entities the same thing? If so, corners add up real fast.

[po' framer]

Man, I am beginning to wonder how a frame shop can NOT have a cmc. The decision is to make it fit your business, it seems.

A quick bit of head math tells me that you need to cut about 2500 corners/month before the standard rental program becomes more economical than the jr. rental program. (That's if you're renting and not on the lease or purchase plans).

This Wizard entry level rental deal is ingenious. No wonder they have so many machines out there. I'd always been looking at the economics from a point of view of a guy who likes to own, or at least lease to own.

It almost looks like Wiz has the entry level market locked up, with Fletcher, Eclipse or one of the really expensive high-production systems being there as the dream machine we'd like to have when we can afford it.

Do you think they're all waiting for that house to come crumbling down as those systems get older and harder to keep going? Does Wizard have that future expense amortized into their rentals or are cmc renters going to see significant increases in their rental prices to keep their machines?

Strap in, folks; this could be fun.

[Scarfinger]

Fletcher-Terry F-6100 - Solid, heavy duty machine - after 30,000 mats it's just like new. Quality, thin, precise blade. Straight precise cuts. Even, clean Vee Grooves - narrow, standard or wide. Quiet - doesn't sound like it's tearing itself apart when cutting ovals. Very easy to adjust over/under cuts - I last adjusted mine about 10,000 mats ago. 2 sided or 4 sided size cuts and oval size cuts are easy to adjust as well. I like the software - I cut CAD designs almost every day - in CAD I can usually scan, paste, and draw around an image shape and cut to fit first try. The clamps are great - can cut to within 1/4 inch of edge and mat layers are put together while on the machine so they are ATG'd and aligned when the cut is finished - up to 6 mats thick. 4 blade holders set cut depth automatically for 2, 4, 6, and 8 ply. 2 ply holder does Vee Grooves too. All that and a cool professional looking machine!!

And I can cut as many corners as I want - I did one that included text today that must have had at least 1000 corners but I didn't bother to count!

Any busy full service frame shop can justify buying or leasing a good machine like this.



[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited April 22, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited April 22, 2001).]

[Jana]

Scarfinger, it sounds like a dream machine!

We have a Wizard, and I am grateful to at least have that, but the Fletcher appears to go over and beyond. It's too bad that they don't have a rental program like Wizard does.

Does the Fletcher produce that noise that shakes the whole building when it gets snagged on a mat?

[Scarfinger]

I remember it snagging a mat once and it ripped the mat - it's a powerful machine. In the crate it's about 750 pounds!

Rent, lease, buy - it's all in the cash flow of your business. Be a real business person and get it together - if you're running a busy framing business it's not a lot of money. After having mine for 2 years there are no payments or corner charges. And I could sell it for more than yours cost if you bought it.

[curly]

I concur Scarfinger. We've had our Fletcher ("Fletch") about a year. It's hard to remember what it was like before.

------------------
curlyframer, CPF

[Frugal Framer]

We've also had our Fletcher almost a year. AND we can remember what life was like before it.... All of the comments above still have not been fixed.... and some that the new owners haven't discovered yet. Life is too short to live with problems more than a reasonable amount of time. The Wizard is good for learning what questions to ask after you tire of living with the problems.

NOISE... NO the Fletcher does not make that awful noise when cutting a curve.

Rick

[This message has been edited by Frugal Framer (edited April 23, 2001).]

[carladea]

Hey--you get use to all those rumblings of the Wizard! And ours (I measured today) cuts perfect borders! Don't ask me why, but it is possible.
Also, to continue with "the Math", 2500 corners would amount to 312.5 double mats a month. That is not that many, especially if you figure in wasted corners for experimenting, which we still do a lot of, or any other fancy-type mats. Worrying about corner usage was a huge problem for me. We are up to over 50,000 corners, and that doesn't include the first couple of months we had it and were renting. It is really a matter of your production whether to rent, lease, or buy, but they are well worth their price, as well as time and trouble learning.

[RobertM]

Getting the Wizard to cut perfect borders is simply a matter of adjusting the settings in the software. At the bottom of the cutting page is a menu item called "configs". When you click on this you get a screen that has every adjustment possible. Don't be afraid to experiment-you really can't screw it up, especially if you write down the original settings first so you can go back and change them if necessary. Take my word for it, this machine is capable of very exact cuts and borders and is not that hard to set up once you get there.

[po' framer]

Outstanding input on this subject; keep it coming as I'm a data sponge when making a decision.

I'm personally sold on the idea of a cmc being more a need-to-have than a nice-to-have in this environment, particularly with the extra design features, linkage with shop mgmt tools and the experience that the manufacturers have gathered in the past few years by having their tools out there.

The rough decision is which one. Ideas are starting to coalesce; now when is the next frame show? Can I wait that long for the show goodies?

[Marc Lzier]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by osgood:
Are there any Gunnar Rapido owners out there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have the regular Gunnar.

Trust me. It blows anthing else out of the water. I think you could actually take another computer mat cutter, put it in the machine, and cut a mat out of it.

[Scarfinger]

Fletcher_Terry will be demonstrating the F-6100 at the Larson Juhl Framefest in Red Deer, Alberta on Sunday 29 April. This may be usefull to framers from Alberta, British Columbia, Alaska, Yukon, Montana, Idaho etc.

[curly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Lzier:
We have the regular Gunnar.

Trust me. It blows anthing else out of the water. I think you could actually take another computer mat cutter, put it in the machine, and cut a mat out of it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Marc
Please tell everyone how much it costs vs. Fletcher and Wizard.


------------------
curlyframer, CPF

[Marc Lzier]

Bucks.

However it is worth all of them.

Like the saying: You get what you pay for.

First of all the clamps are on three sides, in a "'U' shape.

For instance: Whereas all other machines have only one 'zero' point. The Gunnar has a feature that puts the zero point at the lower left AND the lower right.

Meaning place mat in lower left.

Push "cut". As it is cutting, place a mat in the lower right, where the clamps are up.

When the first mat is cut. Push 'Cut' again.
The clamps will rise on the left side, and the left bottom. The clams will pull down on the right side, and the right bottom, and the cutting head will proceed to cut the mat at the "right" zero point. Leaving the left open and clear to take out the cut mat, and place in a blank. When placed, hit cut, and begin again.

This doubles the cutting capacity of the machine.

Other features.
Adjustable blade head insertion pressure, adjustable pressure of the board hold-down by the blade head, and adjustable clamp pressure.

Cutting speed. The speed at which the blades travels thru material is adjustable, and able to be tab set to different materials. Like slow on rag and 100's, and reg on reg and b/c.
And really fast (or faster) for if production is desired.

Servo motors. Not Steppers.

Swiss (German) engineering. Hence it runs with a watch.

Cuts from the front or back of material. Your choice.

V'groove cut from the face or from the back, like traditional v-grooves.

Easy interface.

Primo support.

I could go on but . . .

Like I said, you get what you pay for. If you but the cheapest machine, you get the cheapest cut. The Fletcher or Eclipse is a good compromise for quality vs. price for the average frame-shop.

If we did not have specific needs that the Gunnar meets those would be my choice. However do not overlook this machine.

The new model has no clamps. Cuts to the edge of the board.

Cuts bevel and straight cuts.

Need no slip sheet.

Will hold material in place on an angle installation.

Goes even faster than ours.

You can even enter in multiple mats of different inside and outside dimensions and let the software "array" the layout for you to get the most yield from the board.

Powerful stuff.

[CAF]

Has anyone sat back and calculated how much their CMC is profiting their business, as opposed to how much it costs them? Many seem to fear the chequebook impact, until they buy one and see the advantages.

In our case (Gunnar Rapido 40*60 - or should that be 1016*1524 :) the decision was simple. I cut no mats last month, but I cut ALL of them this month. I had never used the angled blade on a conventional cutter (for someone who pointed it out earlier, the Gunnar, like other CMC's, I'd imagine, cuts at 45 degrees from the horizontal, while the typical bench top mat cutter cuts at 60 degrees. Hence the wider bevels).

As a result our productive capacity is probably up by 30-40%, with our assistant only doing the front counter and fit&finish now. It came just in time, as the business seems to be growing fairly well.

The Rapido is actually cheaper than the Wizard in Oz, due to our lousy exchange rates to the USD at the moment. Go to Oz for a holiday - come to Perth and buy my lovely mats :)

Cheers,
Mike Wilson
Partner, Create A Frame

[This message has been edited by CAF (edited April 24, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by CAF (edited April 24, 2001).]

[Marc Lzier]

Productivity?

We had 2 guys cutting mats for the whole day.

We now have one person who uses the machine for less than half the day and can produce the same number of mats in that time.

Machine payment plus wages of half a day, for a month.

VS.

Wages for a full day for two people for a month.

At full bore (top throttle) the machine and single operator, will be able to do the work of 4 full time mat cutters. And on the COE setting (double 'zero' points, it will do the work of about 6 full time mat cutters.

Like any good tool, that is used properly, it costs less to have the machine. Not more.

[RobertM]

Jana, those patterns you were asking about are the areas behind the clamps and therefore cannot be cut. As for the inaccuracies, as I mentioned in a previous post this is a simple matter of a software adjustment.

For those of you considering which CMC to buy, keep this in mind. Some of these machines are tens of thousands of dollars more than the Wizard. If I am not mistaken even the Fletcher is several thousand dollars more. Now if money is no object by all means get the most expensive machine you can. You will no doubt get a quieter, faster unit with more features. But if your shop is like ours, there will be a limit to what you can spend.

When I combine that reality with the fact that the Wizard will do just about everything that the others will do, with exact precision, all day every day, then I do not regret my decision to buy it for even a moment.

While it is generally true that you get what you pay for, I think in this case that some out there are paying for more than they are getting.

[Marc Lzier]

Let me put it to you this way. You have been eating Spagheti-os and Dominoes Pizza believe that to be Italian food.

Just realize you are not eating real Italian. You are eating a pale shadow of what is available.

My advice. Dine out before you speak. And, do me a favor: have some manners, and don't speak with your mouth full, and try not to belch at the table, as you have here.

[CharlesL]

Physician, heal thyself.

[RobertM]

Guess I inadvertently struck a nerve out there somewhere?

[CharlesL]

RobertM, you are not the physician...

I appreciate all the work and time you have put into learning the intricacies of the Wizard. Your confidence in it will be remembered when we decide to invest in a cmc. Your willingness to share your accumulated knowledge is certainly appreciated, by me, for one. Too many people refuse to share the things they've learned, preferring, rather to let the 'newbies' make their own way. Or to be judgemental when it boils down to what works for you.

Some drive Fords, some drive Ferarris. If they're both in good repair, they both get you to your destination. If you can afford $200,000 for the Ferarri, that's fine. Don't knock me because I can by ten Fords for that.

------------------
I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...

[Scarfinger]

Neither the Ford or the Fararri will do you any good if you need a truck to deliver the goods. Every CMC has it's positives - the secret is being able to identify the ones that you need to deliver the goods.

I travelled a few thousand miles and cut mats on 7 different CMC's before I accepted that I had the wrong one and decided which one I believed I needed. My decision works well for me.

Now if you want to get back into that silly old defensive argument that mine is better than yours we could turn our attention to the Stanley cup hockey finals!!! Those bums...............

[subaluba]

I love the wizard but we have an older system and it doesn't connect to the internet. I need to upgrade the software through the internet. Does anyone know what the upgrade upgrades besides the clip art. (I really want to try the clip art)

[cody]

Subaluba, our Wizard computer is not connected to the net. We just received an upgrade on CD. But on any computer you can get on line with, go to the Wizard site and you can download tons of clip art to a 3 1/2 floppy then load into the Wizard program. You will love the clip art, I promise.

[po' framer]

Well, I'll be durned: a pissin' contest sprung up out of an innocent question! Framer, this is surely got to be the first time that's happened on the grumble, eh?

But talk about some valuable information passed on, it's happening here. I really appreciate everybody pitching in.

Marc, I suspect you're right in that the Gunnar is the top of the line system. I've seen them at framing shows, but they looked too industrial and gold-plated for an investment of my time. In other words, I didn't think I'd be able to afford one and haven't had time at a show yet to just peruse something which might be a goood future fit for us. I resolve to make time the next time I get somewhere. What's the system cost, anyway? (I couldn't find it in a quick perusal of their website) I would guess in the $45 - 60k range, but they do have this whole range in their product line now. Let me just pull a number out of the air and say US$45k, so I can do some math. (Apologies to Gunnar but you shouldn't be afraid to put your price out there). This is comparing probable monthly leasing costs of Gunnar, Fletcher (Eclipse looks roughly equivalent) vs. the Wizard rental.

Systems: Gunnar F-T 6100 Wizard
cost: 45000 25500 16000
monthly (est) 940 525 375
(or, if you do the jr rental) 225
both wizard #'s include their minimum monthly cover charges (4000 & 1000 respectively) extra corners either 5/10cents
No corner charges on the other systems

Software: n/a n/a 500

Those numbers aren't too accurate, probably, but you can see the order of magnitude differences. I think Marc's observation that the Fletcher/Eclipse units are good value for the money is a good one. And besides, if you do like to drive a Mercedes, nothing else will work for you.

The comparison of a Wizard to a Ford is apt, too; not only in comparison to the other systems, but in thinking that those of us who are still cutting mats by hand are standing on the side of the road hitchhiking with sore wrists and backs. Those Fords whizzing past are looking pretty good!

In talking with the Wizard folks, they told me that only about 35 of the folks who got the rental machines (and that's out of thousands; hopefully they meant 35%) paid for a tech to ride shotgun with the system and fire it up. After looking at all the problems viewed above which people are living with, I'd respectfully suggest that it be viewed as a must-do investment. (and fair warning: any tech who shows up to help me with any system better bring a toothbrush, cause it won't be a quick in-n-out trip) We'll be cutting some mats for sale before they get back on the plane.

a question: both the Gunnar and Fletcher systems tout their easy blade changes. Silence from the Wizard website-what do you do to change a Wizard blade?

[Scarfinger]

po'framer,

The Fletcher F-6100 price includes the tech coming to set up the machine and train - usually 2 days.

There are 6 pages of clip art in the F-6100 software.

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited April 25, 2001).]

[Jana]

po'framer, it's really easy to change blades on the Wizard. I don't know how it compares to the other cutters.

[Jana]

po'framer, it's really easy to change blades on the Wizard. I don't know how it compares to the other cutters.

[Frugal Framer]

Wizard blades are a pain to change compared to the Fletcher. And Fletcher maintains quality control on their blade length which Wizard does not do. Wizard blades can be several thousandths shorter or longer from the previous blade. That means you don't necessarily have the phillips screw in the right position when you change a blade or different brands of matboard and then get one of those notorious corner swoops halfway across the mat.... or overcuts which are a no-no at our place. Or test a pattern on flaw board, then change blade to cut the expensive suede.... oops... the new blade was a little longer than the test cut..... wonder where the overcuts came from.... or the swoops....

My bank note on the Fletcher is $392.61 per month which is no difference relative to the Wizard payment.

Like others have said.... more fuel for the pissin' contest. The biggest difference in the long run will be service.... or lack of.

Rick

[Margaret]

I find the blade on Wizard as easy to change as the blade on my Fletcher 2100(Mat cutter)and way easier to change than the blade on my Fletcher 3000 (wall cutter)a real pain!

My problem with anything computerized is my narrow mind. I just found out I shouldn't call my daughter cute--the word is cool... And I was a child of cool and groovy. My mind is closing faster as I grow older.

I thought everything I wanted to do on the Wizard would be on a template. As Cody pointed out, cutting two openings overlapping, answered my dilemma. Now I think of this machine a bit different. I CAN actually be creative in how I want this machine to work for me. I did a mat today I previously thought the machine was incapable of, in no time flat. It wasn't the machine that was incapable, it was me.

I do agree that you pay for what you get. I saw the Fletcher demonstrated and it IS a dream machine. But for now, Wizard offered an affordable lease, I just need to open up to its capabilities.

This doesn't mean I won't grumble about it again--if I get stressed--I'll be back!

[po' framer]

FF, thanks for that particular insight. You must have bought yours instead of leasing it?

You're absolutely right about the service part; that's the real difference in most business issues today

[Jean McLean]

Fletcher does have a rental program out there and they don't count corners.

Those of us who have our CMC's love them. I heard there is a new machine out there that will blow all our machines away soon. Is this true? I hate to invest in a machine that will be outdated and not in demand in a few years. I hear the new one is a laser machine. Anyone know of this?

I bought my machine thinking that when I am ready to retire that I will be able to sell it to another framer. I would hate to think that they are not in demand anymore because something else is replacing it. Do any of you other CMC owners worry about that or will you all work forever? LOL

[RobertM]

Margaret, I agree. The blade change on the Wizzard is about as easy as it gets. Also remember, if you learn CAD you can cut ANY shape or size of mat. No tricking or overlapping will be required. (Not that this is'nt a good trick!)

Also keep in mind once purchased, the corner counting is no longer an issue. (Don't they drop that anyway after 30 months?)

As for the technology becoming obsolete...that is a dilemma we all face everyday with everything from computers to can openers and I wish I had an answer. All I can say is I still have an old 1976 motorcycle, which I am restoring and expect it to get me down the road just fine, and a ten year old camera that takes pictures as good as anything out there today.

[po' framer]

Let's do our best to ensure that there's good information happening; it's hard enough to make a decision with poor info.

I'll check with Fletcher-Terry, but I'm almost positive that they have a program set up with a leasing company and do not have a rental program. There's certainly a big difference between Wizard's rental program and leasing equipment, and that is in who actually owns and is responsible for the equipment.

One of the things I dislike about leasing programs is the fact that even the extended warranty coverage doesn't match the longer terms. I wouldn't let my collision/comp coverage lapse on a car where a bank held the mortgage and don't like warranties running out while I'm still paying for a piece of equipment. (Yes, this is for a longer term lease so the payments are lower).

Eclipse has a laser machine (and I don't know if this is what they have called their router heretofore) which they appear to be holding onto and keeping inside their company to use for their own mat cutting sales. One of the reasons that posture has irritated me is the fact that for a couple of years I've been watching that machine as the one I'd like to eventually have, but I'd have to acquire it knowing that they've got something better inhouse which they won't let me have and they're using it to compete against me. (not literally, but who knows?)

Robert, you're right about corner counting not being an issue once a machine is leased or purchased; that only comes in on Wizard's rental program. With their standard rental, the monthly rental charge is dropped after 30 months, but the corners must still be purchased as long as you're on the rental program. Wizard says you can have the computer they supplied you after 30 months, but the ownership is still theirs. I honestly haven't asked them what they would sell a cutter to you for after that period of time; I don't see why you would want to buy a piece of equipment then anyway, because then you'd just have to start paying for the pieces which were about to wear out.

A lot of this comes into affordability issues, but I wonder if something Bob Carter said earlier isn't appropriate: he said to get the best location you can't afford. One would have to make a pretty good stretch to apply this sound piece of advice to the differences in equipment, but it's worth thinking about.

Obsolescence in this fast-moving times: I seriously doubt that this generation of cmc's are going to become obsolete in the mid-term future. The real issue here is cutesy cuts (all the whiz-bang stuff which overwhelm the art and isn't proper framing, unless you're considering team portrait stuff)vs. efficiencies in your daily operations. The cutesy cuts are nice to know about but not appropriate, in my opinion, to use consistently. I consider that ability as an extension of our capabilities and gravy which steps us up and gives us some marketing attention especially with displays, but see the real money being made when this thing is working on our 'regular' work.

[RobertM]

An afterthought concerning Obsolescence: I am in agreement with Po'framer about a lack of real concern over obsolescence in the mid-term future.

I might also add, the way I feel about it is, 1. Worst case scenario, the machine is paid off with little residual value due to the fact that new technology has invaded the marketplace. In this case, the convenience and efficiency of having the machine in our shop has been worth the payments. 2. Best case scenario. The machine is paid off and has a good residual value because of ever increasing demand for CMCs...of any type, laser or otherwise.

In either case, I cannot help but believe that the machine will add significant value to our shop at the time of our retirement/sale of shop, when compared to a shop with no CMC at all.

[po' framer]

I finally got around to proof-reading my last post and realized I had said a couple of nonsensical things. No news there. Should probably clarify them so I don't further muddy this stream.

Eclipse: the machine they will sell to us is a bladed servo-actuated motor system, such as the one Gunnar uses, and opposed to the stepping systems utilized by Fletcher and Wizard. The inhouse system they use is the one I'd like to get my hands on, but they won't sell it last I checked.

Wizard: There might have been some confusion about who owns what after 30 months of the standard rental program. Wizard says that you can have the computer after 30 months, but of course the mat cutter you're renting is still theirs as long as you stay with the rental program. I didn't word that very well on the previous post.

It's not like that's a huge deal or anything, though. The computer systems on these things are not first-rate anyway because they don't need to be; you getting to keep the puter just saves them from hauling the machine to the dump in the future.

[Scarfinger]

Po'framer,

No disrespect meant but I often find it odd that the "experts" found discussing things in forums are often the ones that have done some reading but have never actually used the item being discussed. Different motors, clamps, etc?? - how about cutting some mats - after all that's what we do for a living.

Obsolete some day - yes of course. I have one of the oldest pieces of Kodak digital photo equipment in the world in the front of my shop and it makes more money now than it did 8 years ago when I first got it. About 4 years ago I spent 6500.00 dollars to "upgrade" this machine and although it made the screen look way more cool it actually never made me any more profit!

After 26 years of cutting mats I can do everything I ever dreamed of in mat cutting (other than hand carving) on my Fletcher and I don't think I have even scratched the surface of the creative things that could be done on this machine. Framers design skills are far behind the current capabilities of CMC's.

In comparing machines (Ford vs Mercedes) The Fletcher machine is quite simply a Mercedes! It's a beautifully designed piece of equipment. Hardened steel runners imbeded in the Aluminium frame with felt wipers to keep the dirt out. Modular components (power supply, Pneumatic panel, computer box). All finishing pieces and covers custom made and finished or plated. An included heavy duty stand that's very well engineered. It's powerfull and quiet. When I had the rental machine I cringed at the noise each time I cut a mat and it looked like a high school science project. By the way, my background is engineering in the design of automated production machinery.

That machine that you think you want but can't buy is probably a limited production custom made machine that couldn't be manufactured and sold at a profit. If for sale it would probably be in the 300,000+ dollar range. A router cutter is a high speed rotary cutter, probably a small, fine grinding wheel. The advantage here is that it can cut a radius as small as the grinding wheel just by stopping and moving back - no need to turn the blade and head. But this grinding wheel through the matboard makes for some difficulty in the matboard holding system and probably makes for a machine not practical for an everyday frameshop. Lasers might get somewhere one day but probably not now at the price of electricity - they use a lot!

So first make a list of what you need a CMC to do in the way of enhancing your business. Then go out and try all the CMC's availble to see which one does the job best for you. Finalize by talking to as many owner/operators as you can to get a feel for success and lack of problems in the machines they have.

Then go out and buy the one with the most chrome and horsepower!!!! Is this business or a mid life crisis?

While I have been writing this my Fletcher, which is only 10 feet from my desk has been continually cutting mats. I just realized how much I like the sound of it. Kinda like the joy I get from the sound of a fog horn in the morning. Gives me a warm feeling.

[po' framer]

No disrespect taken, and I appreciate your feedback, of course. I certainly am not masquerading as an expert. Way earlier in this thread I asked about the difference in operating premise between servo and step systems and got no response. What I'm particularly interested in is how they operate, what are the wear points and calibration issues? Until I know how these are, I'm still as ignorant as I was before I asked, I guess.

My very limited understanding is: stepping systems work on a positive engagement feature which rotates the blade a really small amount, while servo systems operate off something similar to a rasterizing vectors system, which makes it more of a round shape as it's turning along a curve.

This leads one, then, to speculate about eventual wear on ratchet points vs. calibrating a servo. I believe that the actual wear which is occuring may be so far down the road that it's not of any practical consequence, but that's really just an educated guess on my part.

I am going to look at a couple of operating systems this afternoon, and what I suspect I will find is that the differences along curves are not visible to the naked eye, or even to covered-up eyes such as mine.

Is this a business decision or a mid-life crisis? I don't know; it could be both. If I could find a bright Corvette which could cut 3D double bevels, I'd be all over it and Mizz po framer would just have to live with her designs being cut out on the highway! I sense that you business types are saying, "come on already, you have all the data you need, so make a decision."

So I'm like a raccoon or a raven who has just spied something shiny but hates buyer's remorse even more. I'll take the time to make a comfortable decision, but the one decision I have made is that a cmc is no longer just for big shops and an unaffordable luxury for small ones. It has a place in every professional frame shop. I believe we are now in the beginning of the period which will eventually result in the least skilled person in the shop cutting the mats, except for perhaps the beautiful designs such as Buddy's on this forum. Scarfinger is also right when he says that the design skills of framers have a long way to go to match the present systems' capabilities.

But Scarfinger, you have to be careful of how much you begin to enjoy the comforting sound of the 6100 at work; the next thing you know you'll need that sound to help you with your afternoon safety nap!

[Bob Carter]

I always enjoy reading Scarfinger's posts on his Fletcher. He is truly one satisfied customer. He knows what he wants and he gets it. Life just doesn't get much better than that. With the testimonials from John ranes and Scarfinger, it certainly validates the Fletcher.

Bt for anyone that maybe doesn't need the expense or the outlay, we have two Wizards and for an entry level machine, they do everything we need it to do.

[CharlesL]

...they do everything we need it to do.

Bob, you said it again!! It doesn't matter of it's powered by nitro-methane, or uses particle-beam accelerators to cut mats. The main thing is, if you pay your bucks for it, and it makes you happy, fulfills all your requirements, it doesn't matter whether somebody else approves or not.

I appreciate all this info. I'm going to print this thread so when we get ready to buy a cmc, we'll be able to draw on the wealth of info on here. Thanks, everybody.


------------------
I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...

[This message has been edited by CharlesL (edited April 26, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by CharlesL (edited April 26, 2001).]

[Scarfinger]

Po'framer,

The least skilled framer in the shop may be the one to put the board on the CMC and hit the cut button but without skilled, creative frame designers there won't be any mats to cut. It's just a machine, just a tool, and is not creative of itself.

[CAF]

I mentioned we bought the Gunnar Rapido (40" by 60" version) recently, and that cost us less than $20,000 in US dollars over here. One should compare that to the Wizard, not the industrial strength Gunnars which are intended for very large operations.

As for blade changing on the Gunnar, it really couldn't be easier. It takes a few seconds to un-clip the old blade, and the new one slips into place with no adjustments necessary.

I feel the Gunnar is not getting a good rap on the Grumble - perhaps due to a low market share in the US compared to Fletch and Wiz. I had the choice between the Wiz and the Gun in Oz, and favoured the latter after soaking up as much input as I could. As I mentioned earlier, I had never cut a mat pre-CMC, and now cut doubles, multis etc as easy as anything :) Now that's value to our business - would've taken me ages to become just average on a conventional cutter.

Cheers,
Mike Wilson

[po' framer]

Mike,

My impression is that sems an extremely capable machine, particularly after Gunnar 'downgraded' its production machines for less-intensive duty for custom framers. In general, something coming down from industrial strength usually carries a lot of good features with it.

It probably just doesn't get the playing time or market share maybe because of how it's perceived still as an industrial system, plus the fact that finished items from the EC seem to have an inherent cost penalty built into them. Perhaps there's some tariffs in the US which you don't have to pay in Oz. 20k Australian seems like a great buy to me.

Scarfinger, I agree with you, again, on the design issue. The Fletcher seems to have CADD features integrated real well into their software, too, but I'm speaking out of turn because I haven't tried it yet.

I spent lots of hours cutting mats today with owners of an Eclipse and a Wizard. I'll give those who are still making comparative decisions some of my impressions tomorrow, but in general I thought the Eclipse software was really intuitive and powerful and it was a nicer, quieter machine, yet the noisy, dinky lil Wizard outcut it. I've run out of energy for this evening.

[Le]

I just went Platinium on my Wizard. They gave me the computer, but the card in the computer that runs the machine remains theirs. I will continue to pay for 4000 corners a month unless I buy the machine. The buyout is $9995. I got my machine as a result of long and involved conversations on the Grumble, and it's now 30 months later. In the beginning it was like printing money, but I stopped doing commercial work, and now it's just nice to have. For my purposes it does fine.

[CAF]

Wish it had been $20,000 Aus Dollars, but I did say $20k USD. Still a great buy - the Aussie Peso is currently languishing at about 50 US cents (for reasons that defy all logic, PPP considered - quick shut the economist up :). That means it was a little under $40,000 Aus Pesos.
Hughes Mouldings (who reps Gunnar in Oz) also revamps older machines for re-sale, from customers looking to upgrade. These are presumably available at an even better price.
Cheers,
Mike Wilson

[po' framer]

This will end up being longer than most of my wordy posts, probably... fair warning! I really want to pass everyone my sincere thanks for your invaluable input as I thought through this process.

We're going to sign up with Wizard in their Jr. Rental program, just as you've done, framer, if I remember correctly. I tried to weasel some extra corners to train with but failed miserably, by the way. Looking ahead, I see the corners situation in the Jr. Rental program as being the thorniest issue, but it's an easy step up to the standard rental program.

I am not an experienced cmc user, of course, but I do believe that the Wizard is the least 'industrial' of all the ones out there. I'm the kind of guy who likes the heft of a solid tool myself. I really liked the other machines moah better. Having said that, I have to add that the addition of the Wizard will bring so many good things to us and I probably haven't even foreseen some of the ones which will have significant impact.

Perhaps I should explain it this way: if you need to see a long way and the best you can do is to crawl up in a tree, it will help you some, but not that much if what you needed to see is still over the horizon. But let's say that you have access to a Piper Cub, a helicopter and a luxury twin aircraft. The helicopter and twin offer some unbelievable benefits, but you have to buy them to enjoy those benefits. The Piper Cub just pokes along in comparison to the others, and it's noisy and iconoclastic, but you can rent it for a real cheap price and the difference between being in it and hanging from a tree limb is incredibly more than the difference between the helicopter & the twin or the Cub. (I could add for the benefit of pilots out there that the Cub won't hover like a chopper, but anyone who's flown one into a strong headwind can relate to a seagull hanging out in the breeze, eh?)

I hope you understand that I'm not talking down the Wizard and its capabilities. We are, after all, going to be using this machine for some time. Wizard has uniquely positioned themselves as 'the' entry level system with their rental program. I wouldn't urge the other manufacturers to consider the program because I know everyone has their own strategy and culture. It's not any accident that there are lots more Wizards out there than anything else. The other very strong issue besides economics is risk; renting a Wizard is the closest thing to a risk-free decision that I can see, with respect to warranties and the like.

I personally think some warranty issues are overblown. In general, all the machines out there are incredibly trouble-free and reliable. The Wizard rental program simply ensures that any potential problems aren't your problem. Wizard owns the machine and needs to keep it running for you. The feedback I got from wizard folks was that they accomplish this task very well when it's needed. Another related issue is that, with more machines out there working, Wizard potentially has an opportunity to have a lot better feel for the reliability of their pieces and parts.

I anticipate our business to be strengthened by the addition of a cmc. If it as successful as I believe it will be, eventually I'd like to add a cmc to the shop's asset base. I reviewed the Eclipse and Fletcher-Terry systems pretty thoroughly and was very impressed with both of them. I have not personally checked the Gunnar or Speed-mat systems and will give them a thorough going-over at the next show I attend. But I have to say that, if we were going to purchase a machine right now, that we'd be having to make the decision between the Eclipse and Fletcher cmc's. There are things I really liked about both of them: they are quiet, solid, well-made systems with incredible capabilities. They are as industrial as one could get without getting up into the Zund production category. I hope to have one soon. There is an interesting point to be made here: lots of Wizard renters have already had that same opportunity, but for some reason have hung onto their Wizards, making corner payments and everything.

Besides the fact that it's a great machine with great capabilities, I think that one of the Fletcher's best attributes is that's it's a Fletcher. One may prefer other manufacturers' equipment in any given category, but Fletcher is THE framing equipment company. It's the equivalent of a John Deere tractor, in my opinion, because it's a solid performer for anything you might have to do. If you're familiar with tractors, there are other machines out there that have a better engine or transmission, but nobody takes better care of their customers than John Deere. When you think of a tractor, what color do you think of it being? As long as there are framers out there framing, I think Fletcher-Terry will be helping them.

On specific issues, besides what has been mentioned by other posters, what I really like about the Fletcher is their unobtrusive clamping system and the low clearances which it needs to work.

The Eclipse, besides being the general equivalent of the 6100 in its solidity, capabilities and quietness, had two things which I really liked: the computer-controlled servo motor and their software interface. The first seems extremely accurate and the second was very powerful and intuitive. I don't know how the servo system is for debugging or stuff happening inside the black box. Those things are kind of a mystery to me, but system owners told me that there had not been any problems with them.

After having gone through all of this stuff and digesting some of the calibration and cutting problems I've read, I was concerned about being able to make good cuts with the Wizard. In fact, if a machine doesn't make perfect cuts, it just isn't going to cut it in our shop. When I cut some mats on a working wizard, though, it made absolutely perfect cuts. I was really impressed with the clean corners and how easy it was (and this is true on any of the systems) to calibrate them so that they cut cleanly. While I was at the Wizard shop, we downloaded a clipart mat which had a circle on it about half the size of a dime as part of the pattern (the graduate portrait, if anyone is interested). It cut that tiny circle absolutely perfectly. Yes, it wheezed and cranked along as it did, but I wouldn't have believed that it would have cut it so well if I hadn't have seen it.

Here's something I would urge everyone to consider: the one universal feeling amongst everyone who's gotten any kind of cmc is some version of : they would not do without it anymore, they waited too long to get it, how could one frame without it, etc. etc. I now believe that having a computerized mat cutter has become the operating standard for a viable frame shop and most of us haven't come to that understanding yet.

We have treated cmc's as a growth (or else a nice-to-have) tool, when it should actually be presented as an essential startup or efficiency system. One of the reasons, I personally believe, is that beautiful mat cutting has been the province of the most accomplished framers and that it is a difficult thing to watch some machine so easily handle that job. We need to free up our minds to let them design beautiful things, though, and let the machines do the work. Most of us can't cut the designs we can envision, but we can if we learn to use the design capabilities of a cmc.

Will cmc's replace the beautiful designs done by Brian Wolfe or the awesome work demonstrated by Buddy Drago in another forum? I could be sentimental and say no, of course not, never, but that's actually a bunch of Luddite pap. Of course they will. They have the capability now. It's just that we haven't learned, in general, how to create those beautiful designs in the CAD programs yet. There's no reason that someone can't take a knife in hand and do some beautiful cutting work, but there's no reason that someone else can't create the same design in a CAD program and cut it over and over and over again, tinkering with it just enough to change it as they wish, as they go along.

In a private conversation with one of the industry's most respected members, we discussed how a mutual acquaintance had put off a cmc buying decision they'd made at the Las Vegas show because of an expansion of another part of their business. Without knowing their particulars and respecting that individual business decisions have to be made which are right for that set of circumstances, I'd respectfully refer anyone back to Framer's quick answer when I asked him the first question in this thread: "How you gettin' along with your system?"

He said to get one any way you can. That is really all we've done. With our business being less than 2 years old and every outlay being precious and meaningful, getting into the Wizard rental program was really the only way we could step into the field. If we could have done something else, I believe we would have.

I consider that original piece of advice to be the most solid of the whole thread: get one any way you can, and I would add, to do it quickly.

Again, my thanks to everyone for their tremendous insight and input into this subject. It's been fun.

[framer]

As this thread is very long and this seems like a good time to close it. If any add'l comments are need please start a new thread.
"How's the CMC doing #2"

Thanks
framer