Art.com and Allposter.com

[Kirstie]

I just took a fresh look at both of these sites and I am removing their affiliate links from my site tonight. They'll be gone within the hour and I'll worry about repairing the layout later. As Bob Carter says, don't feed the hand that bites you. Both of these sites now offer "custom framing" engines that boast prices lower than expensive custom frame shops. I'm done. I don't make enough money from these affiliations to make it worthwhile. Check out this text.
(http://www.art.com/asp/landing/20070411_Framing_LP/default-asp/_/posters.htm?ui=DAE194FAD48A427EB2441A89E8D4BFCE)
I wish Liebermans would:

1. Jazz up their site. Commercial sites are much more competitive in style.
2. Give us a way to place their site inside our own sites as does Artaissance.
3. Give us a way to let our customers search their site and make collections as Artaissance does.
4. Give us a way, within our own sites, to let customers place orders and have their prints drop shipped or shipped to us for pick up.

I'm going to update my Fine Art Prints page now.

Don't feed the hand that bites you! Thanks Bob.

[Val]

Well said, Kirstie. .... ;)

[Kirstie]

Done! (http://www.framersworkshop.com/FineArtPrints/index.html)

Now to add some more wholesale suppliers and fine tune the page. I feel much better.

[Jay H]

One thing that Artaissance did that was beautiful was that they let 1000 framers use their sites to sell LJ's product rather than try to build 1 powerhouse site. In the next 10 years we just won't see many new powerhouse sites spring up because the web is saturated. But if you let one framer refer customers to their site then multiply that by 1000 than a company like Lieberman's might just move some more product.

I heard a sample of some new ideas Lieberman's was working on for the future to increase sales by working with shops. They all seemed like some really good ideas but really didn't spark my interest. When I asked about Internet I didn't get the feeling that was a major part of any immediate plans.

I made the same suggestion you are here Kirstie. I said they may consider a plug in interface with websites that will help process orders and be somewhat customizable so that it really "feels" integrated with the host site. I would be willing to pay a modest fee for this. I paid $300 just for the program to sell photos on my site. I was told.....um yea maybe in some later phases.

That was probably 6 months ago and I know they are working hard on their new ideas. Hopefully the internet presents had been bumped further up the list!?!?

[Verdaccio]

Just had an incident with that yesterday. Trying to help a customer find a poster of windmills that she saw on allposters. There it was "Frame it for $129". She turns to me and says "Will you match that price?" I looked her in the eye, and said, "Sure, if you would like a crappy metal frame made in China, with your poster smashed up against glass that is too green, backed with cheap corrugated cardboard, or with the inside of your inappropriate white mat gradually turning brown with acid...and in 3 years, you will be back and be unhappy because the thing will be all wrinkled and warped, or dull looking."

Took her aback a bit. But she is gonna frame it with me. :P

[Elaine]

Take a look at the mouldings on these sites... you will see a lot of LJ and Decor mouldings. The program they use comes preloaded with mouldings from those vendors...

[CAframer]

I looked her in the eye, and said, "Sure, if you would like a crappy metal frame made in China, with your poster smashed up against glass that is too green, backed with cheap corrugated cardboard, or with the inside of your inappropriate white mat gradually turning brown with acid...and in 3 years, you will be back and be unhappy because the thing will be all wrinkled and warped, or dull looking."


Have you actually looked at some of their framing? About a year ago I competed with one of the online poster/framers (I forget which one but it was one of the two mentioned by Kirstie) for a sizeable commercial job. My client bought a sample from me and a sample from them to comapre quality, price, and service. I got to look at their sample. Although to a trained eye it was not to my standard, it was not bad. It was not only OK, it was perfectly acceptable for decorative art. What won me the job was nothing to do with product quality. I won because of personal service, and eliminating hassle, even though I was more expensive by a few thousand bucks.

[surferbill]

I work with two different interior designers who do LARGE projects, and they have started to

spec out all the prints on Art.com. I've given them the Lieberman's dvd, but they say Art.com is

much easier to use. The problem for me is that a lot of the prints only come from Art.com and

cost me more to buy. I think Lieberman's need to get more user friendly with their website, or

they are going to lose market share in the future.

[Kirstie]

I made the same suggestion you are here Kirstie. I said they may consider a plug in interface with websites that will help process orders and be somewhat customizable so that it really "feels" integrated with the host site. I would be willing to pay a modest fee for this. I paid $300 just for the program to sell photos on my site. I was told.....um yea maybe in some later phases.

That was probably 6 months ago and I know they are working hard on their new ideas. Hopefully the internet presents had been bumped further up the list!?!?


I know. I made the same suggestion at the last two WCAF shows. I don't think this is rocket science. The Artaissance model is out there.

[Kirstie]

Just had an incident with that yesterday. Trying to help a customer find a poster of windmills that she saw on allposters. There it was "Frame it for $129". She turns to me and says "Will you match that price?" I looked her in the eye, and said, "Sure, if you would like a crappy metal frame made in China, with your poster smashed up against glass that is too green, backed with cheap corrugated cardboard, or with the inside of your inappropriate white mat gradually turning brown with acid...and in 3 years, you will be back and be unhappy because the thing will be all wrinkled and warped, or dull looking."

Took her aback a bit. But she is gonna frame it with me. :P

I don't know. I had a custom framer who came from Art.com a few years ago. He worked production. He said all posters were vac head mounted. He built the frames just as he did ours, and the only difference at that time was the use of paper mats.

[Emibub]

The framing on Art.com isn't that bad of quality. If you take a look you will find plenty of LJ. I had a customer come to me to duplicate a frame they had gotten from Art.com and I was able to match it perfectly with an LJ. They already had the poster in their possession and figured it would be cheaper to frame it locally. After running numbers my price was much higher than Art.com's. Their retail price was only a little more than what I would be paying cost. It was actually cheaper for them to repurchase the poster and order it framed from Art.com than buying from me. If it had been a knock off LJ I would have been okay with it. But, I went in the site and their mouldings had the same numbers as LJ. Just another way we are getting skweezed out.

I have redone purchases from Art.com for people who were dissatisfied with their color choices. Color selection is not meant to be handle via a monitor. Plus, they seem to sell an inferior plexi in place of glass to cut down on breakage I am sure.

This isn't new though. Been going on for years.

[Emibub]

I wonder if Art.com purchases directly from the poster publishers or if maybe they purchase from Liebermans? Would be interesting to know.

[PaulSF]

I wonder if Art.com purchases directly from the poster publishers or if maybe they purchase from Liebermans? Would be interesting to know.

You think all those publishers can afford big booths at WCAF based on selling a poster here, a poster there, to us? If art.com and allposters.com aren't buying directly from the publishers, they are crazy.

In fact, I wonder why those publishers even bother marketing to us anymore.

[Paul N]

In fact, I wonder why those publishers even bother marketing to us anymore.

They are???

[Jay H]

Well sure they are. You can buy one print today. They'll hit you with a print charge, shipping charge, box charge, minimum purchase fee, and just incase fee.

I think publishers have completely given up on us. Just think about it....how often are you approached to sell moulding from various companies vs. how often are you hit up to sell from a publisher? As a WildWings and John Paul Strain dealer, I get plenty of propaganda from them but very little from those I don't carry. I'm not being marketed to at all by any of them. The ad at the top of this page makes up about 50% of the art marketing I recieve.

[DTWDSM]

Kirstie,

I looked at your page and if I may suggest, your links to the different publishers in red were very hard to read, you may want to play with the color of the link.

Also, why no Image Conscious? They have a great selection and are a very good company to work with.

[Kirstie]

Image Conscious. Good idea. I don't have their current catalogue so didn't think of them. I can change the link color. Actually, I was thinking that small thumbnails would look good next to each vendor. Something more appealing to click on as well as the link. Swamped this week so no more time for web work/play.

I think we all have to find better niche art markets, because IMHO, the poster market is dead. I can't stock enough to make an impact. I like Studio EL's new product on metal, but they are expensive and I don't know if they could sell in my shop.

I'm thinking that besides a couple of regular selling artists I carry, my walls are better devoted to framing examples. This will take some time, but we need to make some changes because I have barking spiders on my walls from a year ago. I even ran a 50% off sale on all framed posters last summer and still did not sell them all. The poster market is trendy and it is expensive to keep up with the trends if you are not selling regularly. Our walls used to change all the time and be exciting and vibrant with new poster releases. We used to wait for the new Decor with baited breath, ordering the latest cool new posters. Those days sure are gone.

[JBergelin]

Kirstie,

About two days ago I posted a question about putting the vendor web links on my web page and received some interesting answers.

I pose one of them to you--- why would you send people away from your web page --- would you send customers from your bricks and mortar down the street to the vendors distribution center?

I was thinking about linking to LJ et al and now am having second thoughts - so I am curious why did you decide to put on the links?

[Ron L]

International Moulding is also selling to art.com. I saw a moulding that I used to sell a lot of priced under my chop price. My local supplier of International went out of business, so I'm not selling their line now.

However, I was looking to get rid of their line before the supplier closed due to their sales to art.com and thier business of having retail outlets in markets that they have distribution centers.

[Kirstie]

Kirstie,

About two days ago I posted a question about putting the vendor web links on my web page and received some interesting answers.

I pose one of them to you--- why would you send people away from your web page --- would you send customers from your bricks and mortar down the street to the vendors distribution center?

I was thinking about linking to LJ et al and now am having second thoughts - so I am curious why did you decide to put on the links?


I don't put moulding vendor suppliers on my site. I do put art wholesalers on my site because I want customers to know that I can order a bounty of beautiful prints for them. Yes, they could go to another framer after they make their selection but that's a risk I am willing to take. Regarding art dealers who sell wholesale, I will pay the freight if the customer frames the print with me. In fact, I pay the freight if they order retail and bring me the print to frame. I have such good relationships with some of the smaller print companies on my site that last week I actually got a 50% commission check from one of them them when a customer of mine ordered direct!

Also, when links leave my site, I direct the software to open the new link in a new window so mine is still open. In general, it is good practice to have both incoming and outgoing active links to your site. This, along with many other things, will increase your rankings.

[Jay H]

International Moulding is also selling to art.com. I saw a moulding that I used to sell a lot of priced under my chop price. ...I was looking to get rid of their line before the supplier closed due to their sales to art.com and thier business of having retail outlets in markets that they have distribution centers.

I can understand the whole retial outlet thing but now we are supposed to be up in arms if a moulding company sells moulding to a company that sells online? If so this is getting out of hand.

JBergelin I have also wondered why people link moulding vendors to their site. Would you go to Pier1s website and be linked to some odd named importer? I will link to art wholesalers when I can offer the customer something. To date it's difficult and expensive if your not buying 1 or 2 prints at a time. I get a request for prints so rarely, that I'm really close to not even offering it if begged.

[Kirstie]

Well sure they are. You can buy one print today. They'll hit you with a print charge, shipping charge, box charge, minimum purchase fee, and just incase fee.

I.

If the customer doesn't frame the print, and just asks me to order it, he pays a freight charge which I need raise, and it's a wash. But if he frames it at our shop, then the minor inconvenience and small profit on the art are worth it.

It is also a service. I had a dental office pour over the Greg Young online catalogue and choose several pieces for their tropical themed office. I then framed them in grasscloth and basket-weave. I offered to leave the catalogue, but this group preferred to send the link to each dentist. The whole job was quick and easy because I had the online links.

[Bob Carter]

Hey V-man-I sure would have handled it a lot different

Perhaps, "Well, Mrs Jones, let's take a look. I see that Art.com will frame that for $xx.xx and when you add shipping, that's $34 more. I'll bet we can be at that price and you'll be supporting a locally owned buiness" And, then we will beat them like a pinata. If I was a consumer and you gave me that diatribe, I'd be out of there so fast that your head would till be spinning

I can also speak with some authority on the Lieberman's situation. There definitely will be/is a plan for shops that can do some volume where consolidation of orders/freight bills with a managed shipping schedule and aggressive pricing can help you compete with the uphill battle we all face

Now, in fairness, if your ordering i sso small as to not get any discounts from publishers presently, that won't change. But, if you have a few in place and just don't order enough from all the individual sources to offset that per tube charge, this might just be what you need

Make no mistake-virtually every single publisher has entered into a Faustian bargain with these .com interlopers. In the process, they have feed the gorilla with thes ever so tiny margins while starving the margin rich clients

The bottom line is that we need to support those that support us

[Ron L]

"I can understand the whole retial outlet thing but now we are supposed to be up in arms if a moulding company sells moulding to a company that sells online? If so this is getting out of hand."

Jay,
I don't have a problem with manufacturers selling to online companies.

I get customers that bring in art.com posters for framing. My concern is that they may take another look at art.com's framing and see that I am charging 3 times more for the same frame. My shop is in a very tight knit community and I do not want the perception spread around that my prices are outrageous.

[Jay H]

A while back Bob challenged me, when I get time, to really price out art.com. Well I’m just now getting a round tuit. I just priced out a lovely Marilyn Monroe print sized 22x28 with a 1” black frame.

It came to $104.89 with the poster at $20. Lieberman’s has it at $22. If you order just that one print, you’re going to pay about that to the door.

RonL God bless you if you’re getting $314.76 for this job.

I did spot some LJ frames on there that are a bit beyond what I can sell them for. I may wait until I get to the shop to see my actual price on those frames. I'd say with shipping they probably only beat me by $20ish bucks. It doesn't really matter though because comparing internet customers to somebody standing in your shop is apples to grapefruits.

Bob, have to be real honest and say that those prices are quite competitive even with shipping. My prices are mighty close but they sure are convenient. I just picked out my framing and didn’t once get some song and dance about some $200 sheet of glass. They didn’t make me approve some “mounting” (what ever that means). I don’t have to go get it in 2 or 3 weeks. Actually it’s going to be shipped right to my door in 3 to 5 days. The frameshop can’t get just the print in much under a week!

I still suggest that battling this in-store is a bit like spitting on a house fire. We will never out perform these cats but we can pick up a good bit of this internet traffic but only if we are in their arena.

[Bob Carter]

Hi Jay-I agree these are formidable opponents and, in truth, we won't win this war

But, i do disagree that we cannot compete andby picking a few battles, win some of them. Especially the ones like Vman's lady where they actually give us a chance to compete

I could not agree more completely in the conveinence aspect and the constant "overselling" exhibited by some framers as a tremendous turnoff to so many consumers. We hate it when it happens to us but feel the consumer is uninformed (okay, we think they are stupid) when they don't buy into our rationalizations

Recently I had my oil changed at a national lube joint. They had one person who's only job was to try and "sell" me something else complete with flip pages and visual aids. Now, mind you, I use the over-priced Synthetic oil so my ticket was already approaching $100. But, sometimes, no, often, I just want an oil change. Don't want my excrabilator flushed nor my digichrome replaced

Bottom line: I won't go back to Jiffy-lube when there are about a gazillion other options

At Vegas recently, we had a great panel discussion on the market. I quickly got hijacked by the Aussie's. They are great folks; nice people. As I listened to them, it was obvious that they were operating in a climate reminiscent of the mid 90's. Remember Australia doesn't have BB's and the internet is not much of a factor (they said shipping is often prohibitive). But, they were telling we US framers how the cow eats the cabbage; that service and selling up are the keys to survival (sounds familiar yet?). That the framers prospering in their markets were the excellent craftsmen and quality trumped all. Their big push was to have framers recognized officially (they do that sort down under) as professionals rather than tradesmen. The biggest players there did about what my smaller stores do

My point? Don't we all remember when that was true here also? And, don't we all know why that might be quite true anymore? Markets shifts; consumers change. The .coms have moved that needle substantially and I don't think we are going to move it back much. I often think we are trying to use a three yards and a cloud of dust offense when the rest of the teams are using a West Coast Offense

[Jay H]

Thanks Bob. I agree only to add that the internet is a more level playing field than many other aspects of running a business.

I like radio advertisement because my 60 seconds is the same 60 seconds CocaCola, Select Comfort Beds, and McDonalds buys. This is different from print because when I buy a business card ad and McDonalds takes out a 4 page full color coupon book, I'm left in the dust.

My main limitation, with radio, is my pitch and the quality of the ad.

Internet is even better than that. My site is in a perpetual state of unfinishness but look at this page http://www.greatangles.com/photos/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=1001 Click on a photo and you can buy it. You can pick the size and even get it sepia or b/w if you want. The entire order is processed online. I'm only using about 20% of that software that handles the orders. I can include frames and matting options or canvas or...ya know I'm really limited by my time and creativity. Right now I have elbow grease and $300 in that entire site.

If one dumb framer can do that with a baby budget, Lieberman's could help framers compete with art.com on THEIR COURT. I'm probably viewing this over-simplistically and with the awareness of a 1st grader. But I really believe that if Lieberman's would invest the same time and money they are to develop cheap shipping/big orders/instore pc type programs into getting online, their sales may blast into the upper atmosphere.

I know that selling a poster or two at a time isn't really what they are used to and want but I'd gladly let them sell via mywebsite, full retail, and collect 100% of the money as long as the art is shipped to my store for pickup. So they may sell a ton more for double the money...remind me again why this is getting almost no interest at all? Not that my help is all that valuable but I'd even help em test market it. I believe with every fiber in me that 90% of all the marketing articles and software and gadgets should be geared toward helping us small retailers get internet savvy. It doesn't seem to be happening and we are getting our backsides handed to us while we take classes about how to sell $200 sheets of glass.

[Jerry Ervin]

Not that my help is all that valuable but I'd even help em test market it.


I would too. I still think it would work.

I'm selling Artiassance. It works. I sold 6 pieces last week to a new customer. And we're not talking 25 buck posters. The inexpensive poster should go well.

[Kirstie]

Great site, Jay, as usual. I always enjoy looking at it and you did a great job with the template.

I helped a customer find a Vettraino poster today on Lieberman's. We found what he wanted and he placed the order and we'll design the framing when it arrives. Later, I thought I'd see where it came from as travel time from West to East to West again is sometimes prohibitive. It was from Image Conscious in SF. So I looked it up on their site and it was $5., more. What's with that? Is Lieberman's discounting?

[PaulSF]

Kirstie, you should always take the order for the print, but place the order with Liebermans or directly with the publisher, depending on what's best for you. We have a couple of publishers located right here in the SF area, and instead of waiting two weeks for Liebermans to get the print to you, those publishers can get it to you the next day. Or if you want to save on shipping, just drive by and pick the print up on your way to work.

[DTWDSM]

Kirstie,

Image Conscious had a price increase on all prints from Art Publishing Group, Vetriano's Publisher as if Feb, 12th, I think. My guess is that Liebermans does not have that increase on their website yet.

Liebermans does not discount, they just may not have the most current price on their website, I have found that a few times.

[Bob Carter]

I received a very direct email from an Aussie not satisfied with my remarks about Aussies; particulary with my characterization that I suggested they were about 10-15 yrs behind we US framers

My missed point was that in my opinion after talking to a few of them that their climate was reminiscent of our market in the mid-90's. Remember how easy it was then? BB's were hardly a factor, Target didn't carry a gazillion feet of preframed art, people still ordered prints through poster stores?

I must say that the Aussie framers are no further behind us than any group; several passed their MCPF exams in Vegas

But the same "buoyant optimism" I saw was eerily familiar to many of us during our "salad days"

It is fair to say that we do live in separate markets

I sure meant no disrespect

I thought all the ones I spoke to were quite friendly and eager to share ideas

[Kirstie]

Bob, sending you an email on another topic.

I knew exactly what you meant by Australia's framing market not being slaughtered by the BBs and your points were well taken. 10-15 years ago we were better off. I knew that's what you meant when I read it.

And how great it was to hear Jared speak on sales and marketing.

Lighten up folks!

[bruce a lieberman]

Hello to all –

I can’t begin to respond to all your truly intelligent questions and ideas at this moment. Just a few quickies for now (“We” means Lieberman’s in the following – as opposed to you and we):

Re Kirstie # 1 as of 12:20 est

We certainly agree with Bob - this is a David and Goliath situation for sure. We note your ideas –all need to find a niche other than competing head on. Offer what they cannot – super service as mentioned by someone below, for example.

I do see a lot of excitement in the “local scale commercial/design/projects/interiors” sector, where the one person you break your whatsis to please is giving you a lot more work. There are big guys in the field, but looks like there’s business that’s not big enough to interest them.

Also, in regular old retail: if it gets you the framing, shrink your margins on the paper and offer “big bargains” as they do by email constantly.

We once had a customer who was expanding from the video store business into frame & art. He put a big bin in the front of the store and said ‘Free Prints if You Frame with Us!’

He bought a ton of posters – I guess we might take another look at the math. That’s a poster price you’re not (yet) seeing very often.

I wish Lieberman’s could do all those things you mention too. Immediately.

Verdaccio # 5: Love it!

Kirstie # 9 : Can’t argue. Whether something’s rocket science isn’t the only question.

Emibub & Paul SF 12 & 13: and the winner is … Paul

Paul N #14: Love it again!

Gotta go – you folks are a special breed in this society (uh oh, here comes deep). Maybe part of the key will be really focusing on the local, like some farmers etc are doing (that includes my contractor comment above). Some say across many businesses that’s all that will work in the long run.

Magic wands are in short supply.

Bruce

[PaulSF]

Anyone that isn't prepared to offer the print for free when the customer gets it framed with you is missing a big opportunity. Your margin on the average print is what, $8-$10?

If the customer chooses to take the print to Michaels or JoAnns or Hobby Lobby to get it framed, giving up that discount, that's his or her prerogative, but at least you fought for the business.

[Paul N]

Hey PSF:

It's a great idea and Bruce actually has an offer on his website for 50 Prints for $150 plus S/H !!!

Heck, I'd offer them 1/2 dozen donuts as well with that price!

[Jay H]

I have a stack I'd give away for free and I don't care where they are framed.

[bruce a lieberman]

Well, we certainly have the good times rolling now! <grin>

At least no miminmum order is still a good idea.

Bruce

[PaulSF]

I have a stack I'd give away for free and I don't care where they are framed.

I have a very limited selection of in-stock prints, and everything else is a special order. The free print option is another incentive for the customer to order from me, rather than dashing home to pay Art.com the same amount of money.

[Jay H]

I have a very limited selection of in-stock prints, and everything else is a special order. The free print option is another incentive for the customer to order from me.

A free print option is another incentive to order from you? Huh?

[PaulSF]

Let
Me
Explain
It
Very
Slowly
For
You:

If you order the print from me, and have me frame it for you, I will deduct the cost of the print from the price of the framing...therefore the print is free.

The custom framing order is more lucrative for me than the one-off sale of a print with a $10 profit margin. Got it?

But hey, keep trying to give away that massive stack of prints you can't unload.

[Jay H]

I guess it would be an incentive. I have to ask, do you get many people hem-haw around over the price of a print? If not, why give em away for free? Do tell me, becuase I'll never know, is the type of customer that bites on a free $10 poster one that really spends much on a custom frame?

I've heard of some people doing this to flush old prints but never ordering new ones. We should start a list of all the free things we can give away.

Is there a limit on the cost of a free print? Alot of posters are $10 and $20 there but I've ordered many that push the $50+ mark.

I'm heading the complete opposite direction. I've kicked around the idea of a minimum. Everybody except Liebermans seems to be heading that direction. I've thought about a $50 before I'll order a print at all. I'm 180 degrees from giving them away for free, framing or not.

[PaulSF]

I won't do the free print thing if the retail on the print is more than $35. But for the less expensive prints, they are going to take it somewhere to get it framed, and I'd just as soon get that business. If comping them the cost of their $20 print is what it takes to keep them from taking it up the street to Michael's, I'm OK with that.

[Kirstie]

Bruce,

Welcome!!

I did not mean to make it sound simple and I realize there are many considerations. More food for thought:

In an ideal world I would like to see Liebermans have the ability to give me the database to put inside my site. I'm not interested in new web hosting, but would like to do something like THIS (http://www.framersworkshop.com/Artaissance/index.html) with Liebermans. Not a copy of the Artaissance plan, but the ability for customers to search for prints within my site and a way for them to save and order directly from me through you.

We currently have a link to your site HERE (http://www.framersworkshop.com/FineArtPrints/index.html), but we don't see a lot of business from this page in general.

In this dwindling in-store independent framer poster market, I see web purchasing as the only way to go

Thanks for the feedback!

[Jerry Ervin]

WOW Kirstie! I love the page inside a page like that. I'm not big on HTML code but can you tell me how you did that with the Artiassance page?

[Jerry Ervin]

I think I got it.

http://cedarwoodgallery.com/art.aspx


That is so cool and so easy! Thanks for the idea.

[Paul N]

I think I got it.


Jerry:

Would you care to share??

Thanks

[Jerry Ervin]

Paul

I sent you a PM with the code.

[PaulSF]

Me too, please? Pretty please?

[Jerry Ervin]

Sent you a PM PaulSF.

[Bob Carter]

I really believe that the true beauty of Bruce's efforts are that he is trying to do something. The alternative is status quo and that really isn't an attractive option

Everyday, i see more and more tubes from asstd .com poster sellers; some we frame, some we do not. Pretty much the way it's always been

But, to paraphrase Ronald Reagan in his debate with Jimmy Carter: Is your poster business better today than it was 4 yrs ago? For retailers, the answer is obvious

If you ask the artists and publishers, they may say "NO", BUT ASK THEM IF THEY ARE PRODUCING MORE UNITS. The answer will be "Yes". But, because they have entered into a Faustian deal with the .coms whom are making a killing.

These .coms are buying at discounts that are mind-numbing driving the little guy out of the market.

Bottom line: Retail pricing and 50% wholesale discounts are analog in a digital world

As mightily as he is trying, Bruce is dealing with too many analog retailers

[Kirstie]

Bottom line: Retail pricing and 50% wholesale discounts are analog in a digital world

As mightily as he is trying, Bruce is dealing with too many analog retailers

So what is the solution for the art publishers and distributors with regard to the small framer, all of us included?

[jacqueline]

I used to order from Lieberman's, but I got such poor service and slow shipping I looked for other sources for the occasional poster. My new source is Allposters.com - owned, I think, by Art.com. They usually have 20% - 30% off. I get another 10% as one of their "recommended framers". Their shipping is cheaper than Lieberman's and they are MUCH faster. The last 2 prints came in within $1.00 of Lieberman's price and I had them 5 days sooner! If I have more than one or two posters I go directly to the publisher.

Jacqueline Sullivan
The Artful Framer

[Kirstie]

I used to order from Lieberman's, but I got such poor service and slow shipping I looked for other sources for the occasional poster. My new source is Allposters.com - owned, I think, by Art.com. They usually have 20% - 30% off. I get another 10% as one of their "recommended framers". Their shipping is cheaper than Lieberman's and they are MUCH faster. The last 2 prints came in within $1.00 of Lieberman's price and I had them 5 days sooner! If I have more than one or two posters I go directly to the publisher.

Jacqueline Sullivan
The Artful Framer

Well, there you go, If our own industry orders retail, what do we have to complain about? My guess is that your poster came in shipped in a tiny tube, replete with rolling dings. You succeeded in ordering from the very retail distributor who is partially responsible for the demise of our poster business.

The poster would indeed take a bit longer with Lieberman's because Bruce has to get the poster from the original supplier before he ships it to you.

We order posters from the west coast from the original wholesale vendor, and anything else from Lieberman's. We don't get a lot of poster orders these days and we sell more limited edition prints in the shop these dayhs. Lieberman's si providing a service with no minimum order charges, along with the ability to order from multiple publishers in one shipment.

In a free market the customer will purchase the best product for the lowest price with the highest level of convenience. This is what you did in this case.

I don't know where this leaves us, but I'm not happy about it. We make miniscule purchases and expect speedy, superior service. Ain't gonna happen, but Bruce is trying.

[surferbill]

I've been buying from Lieberman's for 20 years. I've bought the dvd discs of prints from lieberman's, which I have given to my interior designers to use.

In the last couple of years, these same designers have found it much easier to browse at Art.com when they are specing out print jobs. They tell me the Lieberman website is nowhere near as user friendly as Art.com. The last six contract jobs i've priced out for interior designers have all come from Art.com. It's a royal pain for me, because I have to track down all the difffernt prints, and a lot of them are only available on Art.com, so I have to pay more for them.

I would suggest to Bruce, that if he wants to compete with the dot.coms, he will have to upgrade the ease of use of his website soon. If something is not done soon, the dot.coms will become the default place to buy prints.

[Jerry Ervin]

...In the last couple of years, these same designers have found it much easier to browse at Art.com when they are specing out print jobs. They tell me the Lieberman website is nowhere near as user friendly as Art.com...


All of the designers I work with are the same way. I try really hard to steer them to Lieberman's, but they just will not budge.

I have been thinking really hard about joining the 'affiliate' program at one of the .coms. My heart keeps telling me no, but my mind keeps telling me it's over, give in.

[Bob Carter]

I appreciate Jacqueline's post as typical

And, that pains me

Let's examine a specific:

One of the prints on my Customer order list is Consani-Game of Fate (2 others are Blakeway-Chicago and Vettriano-Dance me to the End just so I didn't cherry pick)

There is no 20% off today on Art.com, but they run it all the time(I'll get to that later)

So I go to the art.com site to compare prices; then to LG

If I buy from Art.com it's $34.99 plus $5.98 shipping=$39.97 (at 25% still $32.22), takes 3-5 biz days

If I order from LG, it's 50% off $30.00 plus about $12 shipping (which is prorated between all other prints I order from LG weekly). We have a managedshipping schedule-I order Sun at close of biz, we get that tube the following Monday. Her cost at Lieberman's would be $15.00 plus $12.00=$27.00.

That's a few more than a buck or two and the time is a "day or two" longer

But, here is the real kicker

Suppose that Lieberman's started selling direct to your clients; not only the prints, but also the framing. Bloody heck would be raised. And suppose that they bad mouthed all framers and touted "save 40% off expensive frame shops". Would a single framer do biz with them?

And how often do we rail about M's and the other BB's with their "always on sale" marketing? We want to call the Attorney General because of this "unethical Business Practice". Would yo do biz with them, either?

Then, why in the world do we support these same predators?

To save a day or two? To potentially save a dollar or two (except in this case)?

Heere's a thought

If every framer that bought prints from any of these .coms would buy from Bruce, do you think they might create a critical mass large enough to do all the whistles and bells that we would like?

Or, is it just "easier and cheaper" to just use the other guy (even when it isn't)?

Isn't that exactly the same fight we see all day, every day when one of our customers uses Michael's?

I guess we can rationalize till the cows come home, but it doesn't make it better for we independent framers. If we do not support our own, we may not have our own.

Quit feeding the hand that bites us

[Elaine]

Well Said Bob!

[Jay H]

Bob, I wan't you to know that I do not and will not support those named outfits. I have absolutly no ill will toward Liebermans, Image C, Bruce McGaw and the others that have remained faithfull to us either. I use them and will continue to do so.

I also can't dispute your findings. But you have also revealed part of the problem. You are compairing $27 "wholesale" vs. $32.22 "retail".

Whats worse is that low margin is on an item that's hard to sale as it is. Really the only thing in it for us is the residual framing. If it weren't for that, I'd never buy another print again!

Am I the only one that considers UPS and FedX as the only real winners in this deal?

However, if I could move a few dozen a month online and do nothing but a few minutes of computer work to complete the order, then I'm giddy as a rollercoaster full of cheerleaders.

[djb]

I know of one publisher, who I will not name, that was asked by Art.com to give exclusive online rights to for his new images. That was the end of the deal. He would get nothing in return for the exclusivity, not even a guaranteed placement on the main page. He declined the "offer."

I have recently moved my shop from a busier tourist section of town here in Santa Barbara, where there used to be a vibrant poster sales market. The market has dried up over the last couple years. Apart from local images, I have given up on posters. I will still special order for customers. But other than that I'll leave it to the internet.

[Kirstie]

All of the designers I work with are the same way. I try really hard to steer them to Lieberman's, but they just will not budge.

I have been thinking really hard about joining the 'affiliate' program at one of the .coms. My heart keeps telling me no, but my mind keeps telling me it's over, give in.

I dropped the affiliations on my web site. They never produced much anyway and I prefer to promote Bruce and the publishers. If I had a designer job requiring art.com or allpostercom, of course I would use affiliate numbers and save 20-25% It only makes sense to do so.

[Bob Carter]

Agree completely, my friend

My comparison was strictly to point out the "actual differences" between supporting LG rather than helping Art.com destroy us

The margins, as you point out, are pitiful

But, if we assume that the consumer is willing to pay the "list price" from one of these interlopers, then why don't we charge the client exactly the same? In essence, they are perfectly willing to charge (at no discount) $39.97 for the same print that I will (and do) sell for $30.00 everyday

Remember this really is about giving LG, a friend to the industry, $27.00 or someone that is cutting our throats repeatedly $32.22 (or worse $39.97)

Now, what we do with the print after we decide with whom we wish to support is an entirely different conversation

But, first things, first

Let's quit supporting these folks

[Kirstie]

I ordered a poster from Image Conscious on Monday. It arrived on Wednesday from SF in a large tube in perfect condition. It cost me $46.50 with shipping for a poster listed at $55. Customer paid me $65. plus tax. Then I refund his $10. for shipping. There is no money in this. But there is customer service and the poster is in my shop, not the customer's home. It is paid for and it will wait here for the customer to come in and choose framing.

This is how we do poster ordering these days. No profit in the art, but we get the framing sale.

I much prefer the profit on Artaissance.

I got an email from Bruce Teleky yesterday. He has some very cool old historic celebrity photo prints, some good ethnic selection, and so on. Maybe it is time for a wall of oldies but goodies. But how to do that and build more examples of our expert framing. Even in our shop we run out of room. The kids want the James Dean poster in the cheapest frame possible. Or do they even want it anymore? I've had a Vettriano dance poster on my wall for a year. Berkeley dances to a different tune.

[surferbill]

My problem is I want to order directly from the publisher or LG, but in a lot of cases cannot because Art.com has an exclusive on that artist's prints.
If you ask, you can get a 20 or 25 percent discount on the print, but as Bob mentioned the price is usually more than regular retail.

I remember when we all laughed and said no one would bother to buy prints on the internet, because you need to see the image to buy it. Well those days are gone.

I worry now that the same thing will happen with picture framing. I know that some grumblers will say that people will never buy framing over the internet, but I'm not too sure about that.

[Jay H]

Remember this really is about giving LG, a friend to the industry, $27.00 or someone that is cutting our throats repeatedly $32.22 (or worse $39.97)


Yea I think thats worth repeating. I feel the same for local suppliers. We should give them all the support we can. They can be our biggest asset if we give them a chance. Yet they are to often thrown under the bus for the silliest reasons. Long term we are only hurting ourselves.

[Bob Carter]

Hey Bill-I have some very good ties in the publishing biz. Awhile back I developed a biz plan, one of those on the back of a cocktail napkin thing, for an internet poster fulfillment system. This was before we called .coms, .com

My wife thought I was nuts, my kids thought I was nuts, my favorite publisher thought I was nuts. He had two major reservations: 1) Nobody buys art long distance and 2)nobody buys art long distance

Today, he sells more to internet sites than to retail stores; all at huge discounts. Why? Because they are wholesalers and they buy a ton of paper. One entire segment of the biz was thrown under the bus

And, they wonder where the retail side has gone

Anybody remember my readymade frame story about the company that factored a certain percentage of every container load of frmes from China went to the ma and pa (fuller margin) shops so that they could afford to sell razor thin margins to Target? Then Target switched vendors (probably imported them directly). And, many of us smaller (read: higher margins) quit buying from the because we could buy the same product at Target on sale at retail cheaper than from the vendor? Or from different vendors? Anybody want to guess how many Sales Mgrs and VP's lost their jobs when they went Chap 11?

Save a couple of bucks? Save a couple of days?

Indeed

Hey Bill-Can you give me any titles or artists that are exclusive to .coms? Might be another group we don't support

[Jerry Ervin]

I hear you guys. Load and clear.

Now for my story. I have a customer that wants a poster of Augusta Golf Coarse. We found one on Lieberman's for 32 bucks. This was on Jan 4th. I ordered it knowing that it will cost me 16 plus 12 shipping. I was OK with that. Almost a week later, I get a call, that print is 'out of print' but will be available soon. I waited a week and re-ordered. Same call. I have since ordered it two more times. Still no print. I called the publisher and they have it. I have to order $50 min plus shipping. Now I go from making 4 or 5 bucks to investing in inventory just to satisfy a customer. No deal.

I'm going to order the thing from allposter or artcom or somebody.

This #### is ridiculous.

I have all my in stock prints and posters at 50% off. Once they are gone, there will be no more.

[PaulSF]

Bob identified the real culprit. The margins that Liebermans provide are fine. It's the shipping that is nuts. I've shipped a print to customers via the US Postal Service, and the postage was under $5. I used a leftover print tube. If I had to buy a tube, yes, that might raise the shipping cost to closer to $10. But if I bought 1000 tubes, they would be cheaper. And if I shipped hundreds of tubes every day via UPS, I would get much better rates than what I pay with my once-in-a-blue-moon shipping practice.

The solution isn't waiting 2 or 3 weeks (or months) to place the order, so that I can combine two customers' prints into one shipment. The solution is for the company in the driver's seat to find ways to lower the cost of shipping.

So that's my challenge to Liebermans -- please try to find ways to lower the cost of shipping. You get bulk rates on the cost of shipping tubes, and you get better rates from UPS than any of us. And there's the post office, and that should be an option too. Amazon.com can do it. So can Liebermans.

[Jay H]

I really like Bruce's participation here. I hope he finds time to participate more.

I'm not sure asking them to alter their pricing on an item they have very little control over is very helpful. If I place one order a month and they could reduce their shipping by $3 your talking about less than $50 for the entire year. That is not at all why I'm not ording much these days.

[Jerry Ervin]

I saw this on the Lieberman website this morning...
-----------------------------------------

http://liebermans.net/images/artonline/artonlinemain.gif

Lieberman’s can help you begin your online business by providing you with a licensed database of over 160,000 images. We’ll also drop ship orders directly to your customer, with custom labeling so it appears that all orders are shipped from you. Sell directly to the consumer under your own company’s branding, and never deal with minimum orders or handling inventory.


and for an information packet please email your inquires to etailer@liebermans.net (etailer@liebermans.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------


Is anybody out there have one setup I could see?

I would be very very interested.

[Bob Carter]

Jay is correct

The channels of distribution and marketing are the real devils here

We can bemoan the erosion of market, but perhaps we retailers were simply along for the ride? And, now, this flashy new kid with the souped up hot rod is leaving this old jalopy in the dust

That pretty girl we call the consumer just had her head turned

Some of us still want to go to the prom, and want a shot at the prom queen while some others will just stay home that Saturday night

Me? I've always dated the prom queens and don't want to give up

But, let's make sure we lay blame where deserved. Bruce wants to be at the dance, too

LG has had a fulfillment program for quite awhile, but it does take the effort of contacting them

[Jerry Ervin]

Do you have it set up on your website Bob?

[Jay H]

Jerry, I contacted them early on about that. Its been probably 3 years ago. So I'm very sketchy on the details. They may not apply now but I did try. There was some minimum monthly fees that prevented me from moving forward from the get go! Also they couldn't direct me to any sites already using this service. I didn't examine any futher after those two hurdles.

It is interesting that Liebermans online art thing predates the LJ online art thing they got going on but has fizzled in comparison.

[surferbill]

Hey Bill-I have some very good ties in the publishing biz. Awhile back I developed a biz plan, one of those on the back of a cocktail napkin thing, for an internet poster fulfillment system. This was before we called .coms, .com

My wife thought I was nuts, my kids thought I was nuts, my favorite publisher thought I was nuts. He had two major reservations: 1) Nobody buys art long distance and 2)nobody buys art long distance

Hey Bill-Can you give me any titles or artists that are exclusive to .coms? Might be another group we don't support

Bob,
I'm finishing a 220 print frame job, and about 70 to 80 prints can only be found on Art.com.

Some of the exclusive artists are Astrid, Jennifer Hammond, Ron DeMore, a lot of Sophie Harding, Jenny Windsor, Carol Buettner, Hugh O'Neill, and Beverly Joubert. There are many more.

One of the other grumblers said that the dot.coms are entering into exclusive deals with publishers, and that really worries me. I thought it was just individual artists that were doing the exclusive thing.

As a long time customer of Liebermans (formerly Gallery Pictures) I'm hoping Bruce can do something to help the indie framers compete against the dot.coms for print sales.

I will look into the Lieberman's website print hosting.

[Bob Carter]

Hey Jerry-We came back from Vegas enthused about getting our website a little more "professional". So, we have an over-priced geek working as we speak. We will have several fun links that will allow some "shopping cart" capabilities. I hope no one will ask any details becuase, of this, i am woefully ignorant

So, my easy answer is "soon" (and I hav eno idea when that might be)

May i also be the first to suggest that I have no idea if this will make any/much difference

But, if you want to go to the prom with the prom queen, you have to at least step up and ask for the date

We have institued an "in-store" kiosk type setting with preset links for self-service internet access for consumers to help themselves. We also had a side by side comparison with art.com so the consumer can compare for themselves. It's incredible the number of consumers that simply do not believe that we can be "less expensive" than they

It's a powerful and large ball we are pushing uphill

Kinda like talking to some grumblers

Thanks, Bill-I hope that you didn't think I was questioning you, but would like to remember those artists. We have some economic leverage; we ought to exercise it

Here's another meandering story

I am a pretty serious baseball collector; have a passion for the Negro Leagues. i was tracking down some stuff and spoke Buck O'Neil. As we were chatting, he asked whom I had in my collection and we strolled down memory lane. One of my favorite acquisitions was Jackie Robinson. Buck glowed and started telling me Jackie stories

One of my favorites was Jackie was always trying to break the inertia cycle. Just because that's they way they were didn't mean that's the way it ought to be.

After games, he was telling me, many ballpark owners wouldn't let them use the showers. They would climb on the buses and start driving to the next town. The old buses had 55 gal drums and theywould fill up where they could. Often, they would pull into some rural gas station to fill up; often times the guy at the station wouldn't let them use the restrooms.

Jackie decided that they would make an issue of it. They would start to fill up the tanks and make a point of "No service, no more gas". For many of these cracker stations 55 gal sale was huge. Some operators sent the bus on the way after only a few gallons. While some were pleased with the sale and would let them use the restrooms, perhaps unhappy, but biz was biz

Jackie would then share that info with the other teams (all making the same route) and started patronizing the "friendly" stations and by passing those "not so". It extended to hotels and diners; anyplace they spent their money. Having 3 or 4 buses at 55 gal each every week was something they could leverage. It just wasn't "Oh, well, what can we do?"

That story has always stuck with me

[surferbill]

We have institued an "in-store" kiosk type setting with preset links for self-service internet access for consumers to help themselves. We also had a side by side comparison with art.com so the consumer can compare for themselves. It's incredible the number of consumers that simply do not believe that we can be "less expensive" than they

It's a powerful and large ball we are pushing uphill

Kinda like talking to some grumblers

Thanks, Bill-I hope that you didn't think I was questioning you, but would like to remember those artists. We have some economic leverage; we ought to exercise it.


I like the in-store print kiosk idea. I might try something like that myself.

When you asked about the exclusive dot.com artists, I had not thought there were that many in the order. Maybe 20 to 30 percent of my current order. When I actually counted the number of exclusive prints, it was between 30 and 40 percent. That is a lot, since I have to pay more for them through Art.com. This makes me very uneasy about the future of print ordering for jobs.

It used to be that Lieberman's was the only game in town if you wanted to order prints from mutliple publishers, get wholesale prices, and only pay for one shipping charge. Then, in just a couple of years, we have this huge new competition from the dot.coms for the retail print business.

I think most picture framers (including me) are just not equiped to handle changes to our business that fast.

[Bob Carter]

Let's think out loud for a moment

Suppose that Lieberman's had on the banner ad listed above this page a "Click Here for a 20% off Coupon for Grumblers"

Would you change your mind about using them?

Would you use that "Buying Advantage" to become more aggressive in your print pricing?

Or, would an offer like "Order three prints and get Free Shipping" be a more attractive offer?

We know Bruce is watching, perhaps we can give him some mini-focus group feedback

[Kirstie]

L

Or, would an offer like "Order three prints and get Free Shipping" be a more attractive offer?

We know Bruce is watching, perhaps we can give him some mini-focus group feedback

Free shipping. But Bob, I am not one who should even given an opinion on this because w order so few prints. We think that the future is on the internet, and that if we were able to have the images on a page on our site, with our own web hosting, not LGs, and with the ability for customers to save their selections, we might have a winner. Bruce will already drop-ship.

I am planning to soon jazz up my fine art prints web page to make it more interesting for the customer and hopefully bring in more print business. Bruce stays firmly as the first listing in my group of print vendors.

[Jerry Ervin]

I'm not trying to be negative here just a simple question...

Why does AllPosters . com charge me $5.75 shipping and wholesale suppliers charge $12? The reason I make only 2 - 4 dollars on a special order is the shipping. What if I in turn, point my customer to a .com site and get 20 to 30% of the total before shipping as a commission?

$30 poster cost 15 plus 12 shipping = 27 a $3 profit

.com cost end customer 30 plus 5.75 or free shipping and I get a profit of $6 @ 20% 'referral rate'. If the end customer ops for the thing framed at $139, then I would get $27.8 referral rate.


One thing is for sure. When my inventory is gone, I will no longer stock posters. I will have to have an ordering on demand system in place. The Artiassance model works great, the only thing holding it back with the majority of customers I try to sell it to is cost. They just won't pay 200 bucks when when know that they can find a poster for 30.

[Bob Carter]

Jerry-I don't think you are being negative at all. That is reality

Doesn't make it fair, but it is what it is

In fairness, I do a little "advisory work" for LG and I have long suggested that they use USPS ($5.90 priority for most single tubes). It might quickly be in the works

The magic bullet in this entire scenario is to increase our poster biz to where we are not ordering singles. If you develop just two-three posters per order the entire dynamics change exponentially

Remember,it wasn't all that long ago when that was a snap. Today, we have to recapture yet another segment of what was once, traditionally, our domain.

But, we cannot do it today like we did 10 yrs ago

[PaulSF]

Bob and Jerry, this is the point I made several comments upthread. Twelve dollars for shipping seems excessive, given that Lieberman's is in a position to buy tubes in bulk and to negotiate much more favorable shipping rates than any of us. I don't begrudge them making a little coin off of shipping & handling...that's what "handling" is all about. I want them to be profitable, too.

They need to get competitive on shipping, however, and right now they are not. The USPS option is one they need to take seriously. It's cheap and easy. I can print a label off my computer, and I've done so when sending a print to a customer.

Yes, we need to increase the number of prints we sell -- that's our part. But Lieberman's has to do it's part, too, in getting shipping rates to a competitive level.

[Kirstie]

I'm not trying to be negative here just a simple question...

Why does AllPosters . com charge me $5.75 shipping and wholesale suppliers charge $12? The reason I make only 2 - 4 dollars on a special order is the shipping. What if I in turn, point my customer to a .com site and get 20 to 30% of the total before shipping as a commission?

$30 poster cost 15 plus 12 shipping = 27 a $3 profit

.com cost end customer 30 plus 5.75 or free shipping and I get a profit of $6 @ 20% 'referral rate'. If the end customer ops for the thing framed at $139, then I would get $27.8 referral rate.


One thing is for sure. When my inventory is gone, I will no longer stock posters. I will have to have an ordering on demand system in place. The Artiassance model works great, the only thing holding it back with the majority of customers I try to sell it to is cost. They just won't pay 200 bucks when when know that they can find a poster for 30.

Bruce has to ship the poster to NY and then ship it to us. He uses a large, sturdy tube. They use c***. Either way, as it is, it's not a great money maker for framers unless you have a lot of ordering to do. I also like the Artaissance model, and I also have trouble selling them because of the cost.

[artmates]

deleted: see commercial forum

[UTA KIRCHLECHNER]

Hi Kirstie, may i ask which art wholesalers you are posting on your site and can i get a link for them?
Thank you and have a great holiday weekend.
Uta :) :thumbsup: