PPFA, What Benefit...

[J Phipps TN]

OK, I'm trying not to sound too negative, but....

I have not had a PPFA membership in 5 years. I decided this year to join, expecting a new members packet,and a sticker for my door, and lots of events to make it worth $150.00. Oh yeah and the right to put the PPFA logo on my mailers.


So far I have only recieved a conformation e-mail and maybe one newsletter, which I think I over looked as an advertment because it is from PMA.

Can I please ask what is the real benefit to being a member, other then just saying you are?

I know I will get discounts in Sept for the Decor show classes but short of that, What is the real benefit?

Please make me feel better about the $150 purchase...

Also, I called today to see if they are doing any kind of advertising to the general public concerning Custom Framing (what we have been talking about in the other threads) and they said no and that they only advertise to framers themselves.
So I quess the hope of any National Advertising through them is out.

Maybe I will feel better if I can go to any of the Chapter meetings but so far there aren't any planned for my area that I know of.

Oh and if you don't have a computer you are really out of luck. They don't send out a new members packet anymore. Just e-mail.

[Jerry Ervin]

Jennifer

You probably just stirred up a hornets nest, and I should keep my mouth shut but...

When I asked this question several years ago, about the only answer I got was, 'you should do it because it is our professional organization'.

Like you, I was looking for a little more substance.


I guess all the magic answers will follow.

[Maryann]

One of the great benefits for me is our local chapter. Regular meetings with lots of education. We have some of the "greats" in our chapter so I'm luckier than most. If you don't participate in chapter events, you're missing out.

The national convention, which just happened, is a wealth of information/education and business growing ideas. Unfortunately, I was unable to attend it this year because of other commitments.

I, too, would like to see more from national.

[Cliff Wilson]

I don't have any magic answers.

I am a member, (and VP of NE) because the local chapter meetings provide an ongoing opportunity for learning (both formal and informal) for mentoring (a huge win when I first opened, and still well worth the membership fee alone), backup (it was PPFA members that called and offered help when I was on crutches last year!).

There are other benefits like the insurance discount, the promotional stuff, the surveys, the FMO (usually a useful mag), HH, and others. But, it's the local chapter events that I find the most valuable.

One of the discussions at the Chapter Leaders meeting in March was the fact that the local people are not informed of new members until the "next" FMO comes out with a list of names in it. We made suggestions and I expect some change in that behavior. Of course, then it is up to someone in your local chapter to contact you and inform you of local events and things.

Since things do get lost sometimes, I would look up the chapter leader in your area (on the website) and fire them an email. I'm sure they would be happy to talk to you!

[auntiesarahjayne]

Jennifer-

I am glad you asked the question. I also was part of the PPFA 7 yrs ago and let the membership lapse. It has been on my mind to rejoin (and even take the cpf exam again) but I keep wondering what the benefit really is. Sway towards rejoining is the fact that PPFA offers statistics in the industry which helps in business practices.

-Sarah

[Bob Carter]

This question is asked with frequency by those that, IMO, might be looking for a quick return

I think two things are important to remember about this organization and others like it that I join (NFIB, AZ Retailers, etc)

The first is simplistic in that you usually get out of them what you put into them. Those that participate at all levels generally receive more from the experience. Those that do not, well, do not

I'll share a couple of examples from this years convention. Cliff Wilson and I are were visiting during a break and he wa slooking for a source of easels. We had a great one, sent him some samples and it looks like what the Dr ordered. Worth $150? Hardly, but some value

The other was a great contact in one of the idea exchange programs. It is in development, won't say what it is publicly, but the idea isn't worth $150, either

Could be gajillions, though

Never would have had those "chances" if we didn't participate

In just a few weeks, the AZ Chapter will have a Sunday event with Education and a Table Top show. Want to bet that many will not show up? And, want to bet those that don't will be the "there's nothing in it fo rme" crowd?

What is the value of networking with your peers?

The second is $150 is chump change for membership in any professional association. This might be time for another "It's time to put your Big Girl panties on"

C'mon Jennifer, "You have to have a computer to participate" is a reason? They just only send emails? I rec'd two packets yesterday. Hey, it's te 21st century. We ought to be doing everything email if no more than to save money not to mention the "green" implications

Hey, join, don't join. It's up to you. But, if you don't get anything out of it, look to see what you put into it

It's a little like the person that signs up for a Health club and after two weeks complains becuase he hasn't lost weight. Show up, participate and see if that might make a difference

But, like Health clubs, they don't work for everyone

Except, I'm not sure blaming the Health Club is always accurate

[Dave]

I just joined again this year after a hiatus of about 15 years. Having been very active in the National Art Materials Trade Association (NAMTA) for many years I learned that with most organizations you get out what you put in both individually and as a membership body.

I see membership as providing a vehicle of communication and potentially a tool for change within the industry in addition to the other benefits others have mentioned.

If there are other programs or services that we would like to see PPFA provide then they should be proposed to the board. Three things should always be considered when proposing items though:

1.) What is the cost/benefit ratio and will the membership consider either an increase in dues or dropping some other program to fund a new one?

2.) Is what is being proposed in keeping with the mission statement and the by-laws of the organization? In other words, does it fall within the intended function of the organization?

3.) Is it for the good of the majority of the members or something that benefits only a certain group or special interest?

In addition, legalities need to be considered since, in my experience, members of trade organizations often request things which are intended to be protective of their businesses from outside competition and outright illegal.

I haven't received any word from PPFA yet since I sent in my application and check, but will be interested in seeing what has changed over the years.

Dave Makielski

[Baer Charlton]

Jennifer, I am shocked, shocked I say.... you don't have a computer? How do you grumble?

$150? Why thats the cost of a modest 16x20, two mats, mount, CC glass...... and do you tell your customers that is SO not worth it?

Hmmmmm Tennessee Chapter, Betty Neuman, Robin Gentry, William Parker just off the top of my head.....

Yup, you're right when you tell yourself that $150 is not worth it. $150 worth of chocolate would do more for you?

OK, so heres my slap to the back of your head:


PPFA should be on your speed dial.
PPFA website should be high on your favorites list right under http://framenerd.com (http://framenerd.com/) [which can link you to PPFA].
Diana Day's Help Line 800 # should also be on your speed dial [cell phone, so you don't tie up your business line]
If you want your chapter to "do more", jump in and "do that more"... you might find others who will join you.
Tennessee is a very strong supporting group. If you start playing with them, you may find that your concept of "extended family" may just have to change.
"More from National".... those that play hard at the Chapter level find that the once a year at National is just the little cream cheese carrots on the 7 layer carrot cake. The fruits & nuts, vegies, flower, and frosting are what you make of the local chapter every month or for some daily/weekly phone or email contact.
and just so you don't think this is a Baer kicking you in the jaw/shins/backside fest...

11 Kentucky/Tennessee Chapter
(Zips 37000-38599, 40000-42799)
President
Robin Gentry, CPF
B & J Gallery
524 Nellums Avenue
Bowling Green KY 42103-1632
Bus: (270) 842-3801
Bus Fax: (270) 842-0289
E-mail: ky_tn_ppfa@ccol.net

and if you're not getting your For Members Only, or anything else you thought you should be getting.... feel free to call


Administrative
Elaine Truman , Executive PPFA
Overall responsibility for PPFA programs and services.
Phone (800) 762-9287, FAX (517) 788-8371
E-mail: etruman@pmai.org
(etruman@pmai.org)
Competitions, Certification and general inquiries
Krystin Wheeler , Administrative Assistant
Phone (800) 762-9287, FAX (517) 788-8371
Email kwheeler@pmai.org

(kwheeler@pmai.org)
Chapters Relations
Heather Kelso , Specialist, Chapter Relations
Overall management of PPFA Chapter activity. Maintains PPFA Calendar of Events, administers Chapter rebate program, assists with PPFA framing competitions.
Phone (800) 762-9287, Fax (517) 788-8371
Email hkelso@pmai.org

(hkelso@pmai.org)
Membership
Nick Shaver , Membership Assistant
Maintains on-going member contact program and conducts in-depth interviews about member concerns and benefits.
Phone (800) 762-9287, FAX (517) 788-8371
Email nshaver@pmai.org



“Helpline”
Diane Day, CPF , “Helpline Coordinator”
Coordinates PPFA's technical "HelpLine" for framers. Monitors PPFA online exchange.
Phone (888) 542-4844, (804) 213-0112, FAX (804) 213-0212
E-mail helpline@ppfa.com (helpline@ppfa.com)



and if you need more pushing.... call me. :D

[Barb Pelton]

Well, of course I am biased, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I personally saved enough on my business insurance by switching to Meadowbrook that it paid my dues twice over annually. So, for me that alone makes it a no brainer.


Networking opportunities.

Education (chapter level and at National) We are constantly evolving.

MCPF and CPF certification. And yes, you get out of it what you put into it, but I really make it work for me. I feel it sets me apart from the competition, and I've hammered that in all of my advertising.

Competitions (ditto what I just said about the certification) If you don't participate, you don't reap the benefits. I think this competition and all of the FREE PR you can garner from just participating is the biggest unused commodity we have in our organization. You learn alot, you get a great new frame model for your store and the press LOVE stories about competitions.

Research and Data Surely by now you've heard Bob Carter say that without data we're just a bunch of jerks with opinions. Through PPFA and PMA you have access to REAL numbers and REAL trends.

So far this year:
Let's see, I've borrowed several books from our lending library to brush up for the MCPF--saving me about $100.

The insurance-see above (about $400 savings for me)

I attended the conference and not only got to take advantage of the Education on the PPFA side, but I got to take advantage of speakers on the PMA side as well. Very inspirational and informative! I mean what other trade show offers you the CEO of Jones Soda? Here's a man who decided to try to sell a much more EXPENSIVE product in a market that is already dominated by 2 world class players with HUGE advertising budgets. He succeded. I think I'll listen to what he has to say...

I downloaded an article for my monthly newsletter from the PPFA site because I was strapped for time. Cut and Paste, yeah!

Indirect Benefits by being a member of PPFA:
So far in 2007:

I've had a press release in the local paper about attending the trade show and conference.

I had an article in the paper concerning the fact that I passed the MCPF--that was a result of the PPFA press release that I simply e-mailed on to the newspaper.

Another feature story came about in the paper that focused on Women in Business, but this rode in on the tail of the above, picking up on the MCPF story.

A regional TV station (ABC affiliate) contacted me about doing a news feature regarding the MCPF/2006 competition.

I couldn't buy this kind of coverage.


Just a few things and it's only April.

Some things will work for some people and other things will work for others. It's like a buffet--take what you want and leave the other items if you can't use them.

Now let me lob the ball back into your court--what is it that you are looking for from a trade organization?

[Dave]

Ra-Ra Shiskoom Ba!

Baer, you write with the same passion you live your life...I love it.

Dave Makielski

[Baer Charlton]

psst, Barb, your forgot to mention the $1,200 check and ribbon for winning the National Print competition..... :D

Dave, did you know that you can always go and "visit" other chapter's meetings.... in fact, they love it when they have visiting members. It kind of like the Masons.... And when you go vist, you see how great the whole is by the sum of it's parts.

[Emibub]

Jennifer, the benefit starts when you start participating, and that doesn't mean waiting for your packet. Call up your local chapter and ask what you can do for them. The chapters are run by volunteers. You get what you put into it. I have been on the board for 2.5 years and have gotten tons of benefit. If I had sat there watiing for "them" to do something for me I would have not gotten any benefit either.

From top notch education, Bob Carter, Marc Bluestone, Jim Miller to mention a few, to networking with my peers, as Bob says. Entering the chapter competitoins has been rewarding. HH and FMO always have good info. Plus, your local chapter should have a library you can check books out at to study for your CPF. We just held our forst CPF test and 5 out of 6 passed!

The PPFA is supposed to educate us, not the public. If anybody expects to get a full blown advertising campaign for $150 a year..........................It would be great if PPFA could start a campaign to get our name out there to the public but, how many will commit to the much higher fees? The $150 we pay now barely covers postage...............

I bet your local chapter would be speechless if you actually called and offered to help Jennifer, give it a try. Our board has thinned considerably and we have asked for help at every opportunity and have gotten little results.

[Emibub]

Ironically, most of us with positive responses happen to serve on boards local and national. There is your proof, get involved!

[Jim Miller]

When we pay PPFA dues, we buy the right to participate in the association. Many members say the Online Exchange is the best benefit. Others say they appreciate the association's affiliations for business related services. Some say the networking and local chapter relationships are most valuable. There is something for everyone -- but you have to figure out what PPFA has for you.

Joining PPFA is something like having sex: We get out of it what we put into it; building relationships is a joint effort; and learning how to make the most of it enhances the experience a lot.

[Jerry Ervin]

Joining PPFA is something like having sex:



Based on what happened to me several years ago with my local chapter 'prez'... I guess you are right!

[CAframer]

Joining PPFA is something like having sex: We get out of it what we put into it; building relationships is a joint effort; and learning how to make the most of it enhances the experience a lot.

Hmmm ... so more exciting when you first join I guess!

[Paul Cascio]

Based on what happened to me several years ago with my local chapter 'prez'... I guess you are right!

Inquiring minds want to know Jerry - what happened?

[RoboFramer]

I have not read all the posts, but we have The Fine Art Trade Guild, I don't like that the word 'frame' ('r' - 's') is not in it.

Was once a member, found it to be nothing more than an expensive magazine subscription, that is if I just sat on my fanny and waited for something to happen.

I was a passive member and as it stands now, could be nothing else, I'm just too busy.

If I could be an active member there would be many benefits I know.

My local cycling club would accept my subscriptions even if I did not own a bike!

[RoboFramer]

Joining PPFA is something like having sex: We get out of it what we put into it;

Oh man, you cannot imagine the restraint I have to use here.... if this was on warped!

[QuickDraw]

I've considered joining, but am I missing a chapter? Looks like everyone is SEVERAL hours away from beautiful ATLANTA, GA? Why is that??? I've served as local chairman for two years, Chair Elect 1 year, and Communications Chair 1 or 2 years for our local chapter of Society of Manufacturing Engineers and thus understand the importance of involvement. Professional associations are great, but require interaction to be beneficial... I do feel kinda left out, and wouldn't expect it. There's quite a few local framers - What do y'all do?

[Dave]

Start a new local chapter.

:D

Dave Makielski

[Meghan MacMillan]

Education, Postcard builder, Ad Builder, Certification, competitions; discounts on insurance, DHL shipping,and rental cars, credit card processing....

...and if you go to local meetings or the annual conference...fellowship and comraderie with other people who can help you or empathize with you, whichever you need.

[QuickDraw]

Start a new local chapter.

:D

Dave Makielski

Thought about it, but just trying to get started again pt while working an 80 hr job with my other employer about has me whooped... Not whining, just stating the facts. I would probably join and be active support if someone else were interested in doing so...

[Jerry Ervin]

I can't believe that there is not one in Atlanta!

Seriously?

[QuickDraw]

Dats da way da web site shows it!
http://www.pmai.org/index.cfm/ci_id/32717/la_id/1.htm

Are there members that might be interested in meetings of sorts maybe sponsored/co-sponsored by some of the surrounding chapters??? I just aint sinking $150 into something I can't attend....

[Baer Charlton]

Strangely enough Jerry, he's right... right dab in the middle between Greensboro, NC and Daytona Beach, FL

http://www.pmai.org/multimedia/website/Associations/ppfa/ppfa_chapter_map.jpg

Let me see..... more benifits.... Today I spoke to framers in IL, MI, PA, MO, TX, TX, CA, CO, and CANANANADA EH and I very probably would not know them if it wasn't for PPFA or the Grumble.

[Steph]

You all made me end my boycotting of posting:

Everyone here has made good points, you get what you put into anything...right?

There's no chapter in my neck of the woods, but I always get lovely invites from the New England Chapter. Been toying with starting one up my way, I know the western NY girls would help out hint, hint , wink , wink!!

I would like to be more actively involved than I am, and thats my responsibility. But I would think that if more members expressed an interest and involvement we all could benefit even more.

Maybe its time for all of us to express more strongly what we need from PPFA and ask what can we do to help accomplish it. This makes more sense to me than what I have been sadly witnessing on the G in the last month.

[FramerDave]

I can't believe that there is not one in Atlanta!

Seriously?

Ya, rly.

Back in 2000 or so I worked with Kerry Wilson and the old incarnation of the PPFA to try and breathe some life into the Atlanta area. Did a nice evening with Vivian Kistler, hosted at Larson Juhl, even provided food.

I'm not entirely sure what happened afterwards, because I moved from Atlanta not very long after that.

(Almost accepted a job with the PPFA. Glad I didn't because I would have been out of a job soon after, or living in Michigan.)

[susang]

Meghan said "...and if you go to local meetings or the annual conference...fellowship and comraderie with other people who can help you or empathize with you, whichever you need."

I agree! Way way back in the late '80's or early "90's my brother-in-law had a pretty serious emergency surgery where he was out of commission for well over a month. At the time he was our shop's frame joiner. Of course this happened during the fall at our busiest time of the year. We had about twelve unjoined chops sitting on the shelf and I didn't have a clue! (ok, now I join all of the frames!) Our Delaware Valley PPFA chapter president, Bill Carley caught wind of my predicament and called me to say "Sue come over to my shop after work, bring some cookies, and we'll take care of your frames." We stayed late and he joined all of them for me and wouldn't accept any payment. I will never forget the kindness of Bill and his wife Kathleen for helping me out in this bind.

I thank Bill and all of the other framers in PPFA that have given me ideas and instruction. Over the years I have sold lots of Spartcraft flag cases. This is because Bill showed me the product in his shop and said that Spartacraft was a great company to work with. That one tip has paid for a few vacations! Okay this was "Pre-Grumble" and "Hitchhikers" but that caring human connection that we had will not be forgotten.

Remember that those running your local PPFA chapter are volunteers. A successful chapter can't be run by one person alone. If you don't have the active chapter that you would like, call or email the president and ask if you can have a future meeting at your suggested place and volunteer to help them work the meeting. At meetings bring somebody who might be interested to the meeting-whether it be another framer from a neighboring shop, an employee, a local photographer, or your spouse. I bet that there is an open job in every chapter that requires very minimal effort. Your PPFA chapter will be great if you are there in attendance and try to help out in some small capacity. If you have an active chapter your PPFA dues will be worth paying.

Susan
Whispering Woods Gallery
NJPPFA Chapter President

[QuickDraw]

Baer,
I understand what you are saying and yes there are other benefits, etc.., however, just getting started, I've got to pick and choose carefully where I put the few resources that I have. I must be sure to somehow maintain enough resources to be able to meet my own requirements while verifying that I get the best benefits possible. I'm just not sure that I would receive the benefits to warrant the cost at this point, only because of geographical constraints. That also could be aportion of J's problem as well. Given a little time, I will probably join, because of my respect, and conviction that professional societies and networking forums such as the G have value and that value is often invaluable. Did I say that right??? Either way, I do see the value, just pointing out that it is a difficult decision for some, and if you are 6 hours or so from the nearest chapter, it may be difficult to get involved. I also know from experience that these commitments, such as trying to start a chapter take some pretty serious resources, and that I just don't have right now.

Respectfully,
QD

[susang]

Steph, we are having a PPFA meeting on Monday in Mt. Vernon, NY. It is a tour of APF Munn and we should have a decent amount of framers. For more details go to www.njppfa.com. It's a few hours away for you, but probably just as close as the New England chapter.

Susan

[Steph]

Hey thanks Sue!! I'll check it and see if its something I can attend!

I remember talking to you this summer when I had the Baer....ummm...'event' this summer, great hearing from you again!

[Emibub]

Baer,
I also know from experience that these commitments, such as trying to start a chapter take some pretty serious resources, and that I just don't have right now.


KwikDraw,
Are you talking financial resources? If so, you don't use your own money to start a chapter. If the PPFA decides you have enough people to form a chapter you get a certain amount of each persons yearly dues for your chapter plus other monies I won't elaborate on now.

If you are talking about time as a resource I understand where you are coming from. I wanted this chapter but was in a struggling biz and knew I could not be the president as I felt I could not give it the time needed. But, we managed to form a good board and I'll be honest, that first year getting it off the ground we did need a huge commitment. Day to day the chapter does not take that much time now that it is up and running.

You should contact national and express an interest and see if others have too. You might have people there in Atlanta who would step up if they knew they had help. Even if you can't serve on the board it would be helpful if you offer to serve at events etc.

We branched off from Mew Mexico chapter, I have to say I was unable to attend events there because it would have required me to be away form the store from 2-3 days at a time. Having a local chapter makes a huge difference. Although, you would be surprised how many people get form remote areas like Wyoming, Nebraska, Southern Colorado and our western slope.

[Baer Charlton]

Ok QD, lets try this one on.... so you call around to 30 framers in the Atlanta area.... and you get some help from LJ distribution center there. And you put it out there that you want to have a sit down about starting a chapter...... so your out a few hours.

Meeting night... you might be out some cookies or donuts... or you get a rep to front the refreshments. That way you're out a few bucks for the extra light burning.....

Contact PPFA.... about starting a chapter.. they will send you information. Cost to you? $0.

Now it's getting into summer.... and PPFA throws you the special $59 to join..... so now you're out $65 and a few hours....

September.... the chapter is up and running.... quirky but running.... ok, limping along but getting better day by day....

Oct/Nov... you hold the first annual meeting with Print competition and everything... and you started it all, so they force you to be President.

Which means: Your going to Vegas. They don't pick up the whole show... but man.. what they don't pick up is chump change.

So for a few hundred bucks.. you take a zillion classes, meet a gazillion new friends and have a great time and trust me, your customers will see you in a different light.... "you went to Vegas to get schooling to do a better job".

Ok, so my mind ran down that little mercenary path a bit.... but why not?:D

[QuickDraw]

Ok guys,
Given my background, I know a little about what it takes to run a professional society chapter. I would never consider using personal financial resources for this as I understand what Emibub is saying and have a clue about at least how SME did things, as well as a few other volunteer run organizations that I have served with. However, it does take considerable time and effort to get the ball rolling. I hear what your saying Baer, but again that takes time. Maybe I will contact national and see if there is/has been any interest. As I said, I could see myself being an active member, but I have recently had to walk away from my commitments with SME due to time constraints, and this is part of the reason I'm struggling to get restarted in this industry and take on a new life as an entrepreneur again. All that said, I certainly would not want to take on trying to start a new chapter of any organization... I think I'd be setting myself and the organization up for failure.

[Framar]

OK - having both been a PPFA member and a non-member (kinda off and on and now off) (no one in my area has ever expressed an iota of interest in a PPFA chapter) - when two of the benefits listed are camaraderie with fellow framers and the HH online exchange and exchanging ideas at shows - how is that any different from the fellowship of the Grumble ?????

(Signed: The Devil's Advocate)

[Elaine]

Steph & Mar,

I looked into starting a chapter for the CNY area - I spoke with Fran Gray who is now the new PPFA president (I think) Anyway, at the time, I did not have the time to do this on my own and was having difficulty finding other people interested. Sue Kirchausen in Geneva was one of the few. I have found it difficult to network with some of the frameshops in my area - not sure why, maybe its competition - not sure. I have better relationships with the shops that are at least 1/2 hour away. There has been an increase in those people and shops.

Anyway, Steph - IF you are interested in getting the ball rolling, I would be interested in helping out - I am pretty booked for time between the two stores, but I think that this is something CNY needs and would be helpful. I have also tried to get Quadrant involved (distributor in Rochester). I am sure that even some of the Larson Reps would help us out with events, etc. Vivian has also done a seminar in Rochester that was packed and when I spoke with her a couple of years ago, she said she would come back.

I know of the following people that are on The Grumble within an hour to two hours from my store:

Roz
Elaine
Keith J
Mar
Steph
Miterbox

There may be more that I'm not thinking of.

Let me know what you think

Elaine

[Jim Miller]

...when two of the benefits listed are camaraderie with fellow framers and the HH online exchange and exchanging ideas at shows - how is that any different from the fellowship of the Grumble ?????

Two of the benefits of driving a car are that it gets you where you want to go, and it's cheaper than flying. How is that any different from riding a bicycle?????

[Jerry Ervin]

Mar

The info that 'members of the organization' give you here must not be as good as the info they would give you if you too were a member.

Also, the classes and camaraderie at the show in Atlanta or Baltimore pale drastically in comparison to Las Vegas. Not the 'West Coast Art & Frame' but the one and only true 'organization' show.


I still don't understand why as big as the Atlanta area is there is not a chapter.

[apetty]

Here's the context of part of an email I just received from Nick Shaver (in charge of PPFA membership at national) regarding joining PPFA:

"I don't show a record of you being a member before so you would be eligible for our $50 trial membership. Our fiscal year runs October 1-September 30th if you sign up today you would only get about 6 months of membership but if you wanted to wait until June 1st we are having a 15 month membership good thru September 30, 2008 for the same $50."

[J Phipps TN]

I understand the concept, but just wasn't getting any info on anything. I mean, I joined in January and it's now April and I recieved nothing but one e-mail. I guess I thought I would get at least a monthly calendar of events.

I will contact our local Chapter, which I think Betty Newman has alot to do with. I think I will call her today.

And Baer, I do have a computer ,Obviously,since I am talking to you, but I was just concerned for those who don't. I mean, I have been really surprised at the number of Frame shops that still write up orders by hand.

Anyway, I guess I was looking forward to my welcome packet with the list of members and chapter meetings and that sticker for my door. I still need one of those.

I didn't get any of that.

I promise I will get involved today, I'll call Betty!
I really expected her to chime in, She must really be busy!:D


And I want to say thank you to all of you for making feel better about my $150. purchase.:o

I'm also going to check out the Hitcher Hicker site and see what's up with that.
:thumbsup:
Thanks again,

[Jay H]

I'm certain that by this point there are few benifits that haven't been mentioned. If I were on a jury, I'd say baised on the facts that the PPFA offers an acceptable value for the money. What does it cost? $150? It seems that you could easily draw $150 worth of good and savings from the program. It would be unreasonable to assume that $150 will be some saving grace to your business. I think Bob calls that "optimisticlly delusional".

People make use of the PPFA offerings differently. What is important to one may be useless to another. I must say that for me, I made better use of the Framerselect than I ever did the PPFA and we all know what kind of support FS had. At the time I joined both, they were roughly the same price.

I guess at the end of the day $150 isn't much. Well neither is the $250 for the chamber, and $200 for Project Downtown, and $375 for...........

[Jay H]

I'm also going to check out the Hitcher Hicker site and see what's up with that.

Be careful. THis might the lamest way to communicate on the Interweb. Register with a dedicated yahoo (or equivilent) address. The HH could render your "real" address usless. I actually used the email addy that I registered. After recieving like 30 emails a day, I tried to change the settings to just get ONE email a day. After a couple of attempts, the change was never made. Even after my dues lapsed, it was another 6 months before the emails stopped. Last time I checked there was something like 20,000 emails in my inbox. About 80% of that is from HH.

Carry on.

[Jerry Ervin]

I have to agree with Jay.

HH is a perfect example of how NOT to do something.

[Bob Carter]

Hey Jay-Some days it seems like the emails generated are endless; a lot, simply regurgitation of mental mashed potatoes. 5 or 6 people seem to be the primary posters. The 80/20 rule is more like a 90/10 rule (90% of th eposts come from 10% of the posters)

But, the some days here are not much different

[J Phipps TN]

you're saying, if I register with HH I will get a bunch of e-mails?

Are they from framers or advertisers?

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Jennifer,

You'll receive responses to questions and subjects from fellow PPFA members. No advertising goes through the On Line Exchange.

As Bob states, some days it's alot of emails.....I honestly delete most of them, as I really don't have the time to read all of them. I don't read every thread on The Grumble either..... :shrug:

If you do read every thread on this forum, then you pretty much have an idea what it is like receiving HH mail. (Some folks are cross-overs, some are unique to each vehicle.)

:kaffeetrinker_2: John

[Bob Carter]

Just like when you log on to this site, many people have entered posts since your last visit

Here, they are broken down by forums

There they are, on the option we selected anyway, included in your mailbox with all other emails

There are not suppossed to be any "spam-type" emails. Merrill is pretty protective of that feature

Just sign up and see how you like it; it may not be for you

Here, I ignore many, many posts; there, I delete many, many posts

After awhile you will see the same addresses and know exactly who they are and chosse to read them or not

Again, not much different here

[Cliff Wilson]

HH is an email exchange program. When someone posts a question or answer, it goes to EVERYONE who is registered. EVERY post gets emailed to EVERYONE.

Jay's suggestion to open a separate email address is a good one.

Because it gets sent to everyone, most people are more reluctant to post and I believe there is less "me to." However, there are a few that can't seem to resist posting to the world that they do/think the same as the last 10 posters.

I often just delete whole threads without opening them.

Although HH is sometimes useful, and I read a fair bit of it, I think in it's current format it's a bit of a problem.

I understand Merrill has been asked to consider a format change.

[susang]

Jay, I prefer the Digest because that only delivers one email a day. I agree that sometimes it is tricky to make changes on your HitchHiker account. I would call or email Merrill and I bet that he could fix it up 1-2-3. I believe that his contact information is on the PPFA website.

Susan

[Bandsaw]

Why doesn't HH use a forum software like the Grumble?

The mess of emails from HH was the last straw for me.

[CAframer]

Why doesn't HH use a forum software like the Grumble?

The mess of emails from HH was the last straw for me.

Not only is HH's listserv format hard to follow, especially when people omit references, but not all emails arrive! A bulletin board format is so much better!

The best thing about HH is the archive. Between the G and HH archive you can find answers to most anything! Or failing that the name of someone who has done something similar so you can go brainstorm!

[Steph]

I get my HH e-mails sent in one lump, took about half a day of e-mails before I said no way! After spending so much time with the Grumble format I just can't, or maybe don't want to get use to how HH is set up.

Too disjointed in my opinion. I'm trying to enjoy it, but I ain't feelin' the luv!

[Mecianne]

I guess at the end of the day $150 isn't much. Well neither is the $250 for the chamber, and $200 for Project Downtown, and $375 for...........

Eggsactly.


Much akin to asking what can PPFA do for me is asking how much should you charge for a frame that's "this" big. Personally, I can think of ways to spend $150 that would benefit me more. But then again I can also think of several ways to use silicone in framing.

But what do I know? I am one of those framers with my head in the sand.

[Paul Cascio]

Disjointed is a good decription. The HH format makes it difficult to follow a thread, and nearly impossible to respond to one.

[B. Newman]

I have spoken with Jennifer and made sure she is on the KY/TN Chapter list, in fact the chapter newsletter went out just yesterday. We have a conference call every couple of months, and have a seminar planned for June.

As for associations and what they can do for one's business - I've found that when I join an organization with the intent of "serving" - in other words, "what can I do for my industry" (or community, or church, etc) instead of "what can (whatever) do for me", in the long run, I get back faaaar more than I ever give.

But, I have to be willing to give first (and not just the money.)

[DVieau2]

If your a part time framer working out of your home than PPFA may not make sense. If you consider yourself a retail business person then PPFA is a no-brainier.

Both the Grumble and Hitchhikers are good reading for any framer.

HH is much more matter-of-fact. I appreciate that decorum and except for the excessive quoting I have no trouble following the threads. I also skip the stuff that doesn't interest me.

The Grumble requires some effort to separate the wheat from the chaff. The humor is fun but sometimes the conversation becomes ridiculous.

There's a lot of small time thinking on the Grumble. Much less so on HH.

I like the HH protocol where everyone uses their name and location. The anonymity of the Grumble occasionally results in posts from someone with questionable motives.

Doug

[David N Waldmann]

Two ideas that help with the HitchHiker mail "problem".

1. Make a separate folder and create a Rule that puts all mail into that folder. I also have it marked as "Read" so that I don't get notifications every time a new message comes in. I check my PPFA folder once a day, just like I do The Grumble.

2. Sort your PPFA folder by Subject/Thread and it will (should) keep all the related messages together. The biggest problem with that is when people change the subject. But, it's a help.

[susang]

[QUOTE=DVieau2;284914]If your a part time framer working out of your home than PPFA may not make sense."

Doug, I don't have exact numbers, but so many of the framers who attend our PPFA chapter meetings are home-based, part-time or full time. It seems as if these framers may be a bit more flexible with their time than those who are tied down to shop hours. I believe that all framers can use PPFA-home based and those who work in a shop.

Susan

[Jay H]

Ok, I feel like I started some of this by focusing on some of the problems with HH. The ONLY problem I had with it was the method of communciation. I don't have any concern whats so ever with the quality of what is said there.

The Grumble requires some effort to separate the wheat from the chaff. The humor is fun but sometimes the conversation becomes ridiculous.

There's a lot of small time thinking on the Grumble. Much less so on HH.

Wow, if I looked up "ironic".

I find your generalization hurtfull, small minded, and very inaccurate.

Carry on.

[Emibub]

I guess it is all in how you see things. I find getting through HH very tedious and I think I miss a lot of things because I lose interest along the way when I can't tell what started a convo. I get the digest version too. I rarely reply to anything on HH because it seem so daunting. Like last night somebody said the most disparaging thing about BB employees, since I had been one once I really wanted to reply but soon grew weary and went to bed instead. Maybe that is part of the problem, I get my digest after midnight and I am tired. I'll go back and reread that particualr comment and see if I have the gumption to respond to his unfortunate comments in the light of day.

It is so much easier here and so much more like a group of people having a discussion. I guess I like small minded people....................

[J Phipps TN]

PPFA just called and said after hearing about my post on the Grumble, they checked their computers and realized there was a glitch in the address for mailing. My address was set on inactive, and that is why I had recieved nothing!

They are making it up to me by sending all the back issues of the newsletters and my welcome packet (with my door sticker).

Thanks to PPFA for making it right and checking it out for me.


I do beleive in getting involved when joining an organization, but if you are not recieving any info, It's hard to know how to do that.

I'm ready to move forward and am excited about meeting all the members in my chapter.

Thanks again PPFA

[Jerry Ervin]

Don't you just like a happy ending!

[BUDDY]

After reading Jennifer's resolution from PPFA and also knowing about one of my own I can't help but wonder why some who have a dispute with PPFA or anyone for that matter don't get on the Phone or INTERNET and tell them what is bothering them.That seems to work here I guess it is the same other places .Don't you think?

I truly am grateful that somehow TFG relayed Jennifer's message or someone who is LURKING is connected to PPFA but wouldn't it have been logical to keep bothering them until you made your point? I know she tried and meet some obstacles and so did I( I'll explain later) but can you imagine how many calls PPFA gets and some aren't for as good reasons?

I don't for a moment think PPFA wants to ignore or irritate anyone especially someone wanting to enroll. In my case I was allowed to continue participating on HH much after my dues expired due to the Katrina problem and when that finally came to an end Merrill notified me he would have to soon drop me from HH if I didn't renew. I had been told that John Pruitt ,in a local meeting , had said the PPFA was negotiating a special "RETIRED" membership rate for me ,a another local memeber and few others and would let us know. But I herad nothing . So I called PPFA when Merrill said he hadn't either. Guess what it was waiting for US to ask about at the enrollment desk. And all I needed to do was ask. I guess it would have been equally as easy for them to tell us but then I'll bet they have a few other things to do as well.

My point is ( and NO I'm not trying to be sarcastic or offensive), is I'll bet there are MANY perks and benefits just waiting for us to receive that PPFA doesn't know we need or are interested in and and we have never asked if they even exist. Not every body can use all the same things everyone else can even if they do already exist. So maybe if we ask directly we will find a goldmine or we may just give PPFA a list of what we really need. Like a legal defense against False advertiseing that portrays us in a bad light.

You never know if you don't ask and then you may be very pleasantly surprised as Jennifer and I both were. BTW I don't have nearly as much problem useing HH as some do but I do participate in both TFG and HH and regularly cross reference information I find in either to the other one. I find it can be very helpful since we all are in the same industry and a huge number of us are in both , despite some who complain about HH , but enjoy speaking about those cross referenced topics.maybe we should overlook the Format problems and share our like interest for the good of all framers?
BUDDY

[Baer Charlton]

Another benie... it's a small world.

Buddy, Fred Horton and I judged in Vegas.. he said to say hi because he knew we both get on the Grumble and he doesn't. They really miss you and Marie [ok, he said Marie and her driver :D] and said that you two need to get in your peerow and "coma visitin'."

[BUDDY]

Baer I don't get to see Fred as much since I am now on the North shore ( Of Lake Pontchartrain and don't have a shop ) but he should have known and told you that Marie is my driver . you see I have sleep apnea and Marie is terrified that I will nod off at the wheel on that 25 mile ride over the Causeway which is too far by Pi rogue or any other water conveyance. LOL. Even more important she has Stenosis of the Spine and a Titanium knee and is more comfortable in the roomer driver's seat.

But if Marie doesn't scuttle our involvement ( the Auction is on her Birthday this year) we should be seeing Fred and all the other Framers soon ( I have to call all of them soon) for the annual WYES art Auction which Marie is on the advisory Board for the 5-6 year and I will be Chairing the Phone banks and securing Framing donation once again. Hopefully soon we will be able to once again hold the Framing Competition at the art auction that was shelved due to the recovery from Katrina by all the shops.

But I do still post on HH much to the chagrin of many there. I 'll bet Bob or some can attest to that. But I try to keep those on TFG and HH aware of what each other are saying since it affects both of the groups equally.
BUDDY

[Baer Charlton]

Buddy, I'm sure they will all be happy to see you two. And what a birthday present for Marie.

Yes, Fred did judiciously share about physical challenges but nothing specific.

Now.. Pi rogue... is that the correct spilling for something pronounce P-row? LOL

[Framar]

Well isn't this a first on the Grumble - Baer is asking Buddy how to spell something!!!

Oh MY!

[BUDDY]

Well Mar I guess that could be a perfect example of the blind leading the blind and some seeing impaired individuals who hear about this post might be offended by that comparison and rightly so. Any time either of us needs help spelling the other is the last place we should look. LOL

However when I used spell check I guess it just isn't familiar with Cajun slang, or worse yet the challenges my post can bring. I think I spelled in correctly but for some reason spell check separated the lettering.

Here is a better correction and definition.

A pirogue is a small, flat-bottomed boat of a design associated particularly with West African fishermen and the Cajuns of the Louisiana marsh. These boats are not usually intended for over-night travel but are light and small enough to be easily taken onto land. The design also allows the pirogue to move through very shallow water and be easily turned over to drain any water that may get into the boat. The pirogue's motion comes from paddles that have one blade (as opposed to a kayak paddle, which has two). It can also be punted with a pole in shallow water.

That is a correct spelling and the phonetics are some like "Pee row"if my Cajun is up to snuff. however they originally were dug outs from a single log and used to traverse the Louisiana marsh which can be very shallow ( inches at times) but there are version of these craft that can accommodate much larger loads . They frequently are used to hunt ducks from and a version of this boat with a squared off back so as to accommodate a small outboard motor is ( I belive )sometimes called a Jon-boat. These are sometimes fitted with small inboard lawn mower motors and extended shallow propellers for toady's Hunters and Crawfishers . In days gone by and in true Cajun country the very shallow drafted dug out is commonly propelled by a standing Cajun with a Push Pole ( punt ???) The closest thing to one of these craft commonly seen away from Louisiana is probably a Canoe but they aren't truly FLAT bottomed.

And Baer's phonetic spelling probably is more helpful than my Cajun correct but spell checked altered one.

At any rate my dad did use them to traverse lake Maurepas by not Pontchartrain when Duck hunting . But Maurepas is much smaller . Also he did get ,shall we say momentarily sidetracked once ( lost?) and he did actually pull the craft and it's contents ( Shot guns , Decoys , etc.) up on shore and turn it over for shelter till day break when he could hear the search parties shots being fired.

Still 25 miles is a long way to ride on a paved Causeway ( I think one of the longest bridges in the USA) much less in a tiny craft.

BUDDY

[Framar]

Oh Buddy - I should have also pointed out that YOU had spelled something correctly!!!

Doug Kershaw's "Lousiana Man" is one of my favorite all time songs (and it has the line "jumped in my pirogue - headed down the bayou.") Cajun and Zydeco are some of my favorite types of music.

[BUDDY]

Mar;
to be honest there are a lot of Cajun Colloquialisms that we use around here and i don't even know they are Cajun much less how they are spelled. A lot of the wildlife and fish and fowl are called by their Cajun names down here and i don't even know their proper names much less how to spell the Cajun ones.

I have long tried to find a list of those names that have pictures with them . I need the pictures because I know some of the names and recognize the critter by their Americanized name. LOL

A couple of examples are a COOT is called a Poule Au due ( pronounced PULL DO) and literally means water chicken. And those Cajuns can make them taste better than any chicken .

Still another that drove me nuts for a while is GrasBeck ( pronounced Grow Beck ) and means Big beak . It was know to me as a Cajun delicacies that was illegal to hunt . they only ate the Breast and could clean out a rookeries with a broom stick and a sack because the dumb birds would leave their wounded brethren and circled right back to the waiting arms of the Cajuns. It turn out to be one of Marie's favorite birds to sight, a Crested Night Heron.

down here we love to catch Speckled Trout only they aren't even trout or called that anywhere else they are more correctly known as Spotted Weak Fish other places.

So is it any wonder that Baer or anyone else would use the phonetic spelling of some of those names. But I can misspell them in any langauge.Only problem is spell check doesn't have a clue and neither does Baer so I am all by my self. LOL
BUDDY

[Baer Charlton]

Mar, lets jus stand here and glow in the moment.....

Buddy correctly spelled "Colloquialisms" as well as pirouge.

Buddy, Poule Au due is French Cajun... but the owner of the Tour A'Gent in Paris knew right off which duck I was talking about... then it hit me.... since the early 1600s, this restraunt has raised and served over a million ducks.... they know ducks.

When I was living in Gretna and spending much of my time in Plaquerman Parrish, I was hanging out with a couple named Joe and Marie... and she was kind of held as the Cajun Queen... so I had pass to be in the Parrish after dark.... :D

One day Joe to me over to see his new pirouge being carved.... it was 14' and the tree was over 40" around. The guy was carving the guts of the tree out through a narrow crack he had dug the length of the tree. He was using several different adz and was carving the cypress very fast. He said that he only had 72 hours to make the pirouge after cutting the tree down. After that the wood was to dry.

Essentially he was making a Penne pasta with a slit in it. Once he got it pretty much hacked out, he started bending the sides out. He would chock the sides, then roll the unit on one side and pour boiling water in the bowl of the tube.... This would relax that side untill the chocks fell out. He would then re-chock, roll the tube onto the other side and repeat with more boiling water.

When the log was about half flattened out, he grabbed a bunch of tinder dry grasses and threw them into the bowl of the boat and lit them. They burned very hot and boiled the moister of the inside layer into steam... This cause the inner layer to expand as it was drying... In about 1/2 hour the boat was the right shape, and the fire was out..

He took a broom and swept out the ash and char, then grabbed a 3' long scrub plane that his great grandfather had made.... and in about another beer, the inside of the pirouge was finished.

He then flipped the boat over and tied a line from front to back, then went to work with a shipwright's adz and smoothed down the bottom about an inch but leaving a keel down the middle. That was his signiture.. the keel makes it glide or track straight.

That guy was the most amazing wood worker I had ever watched work.

[Framar]

Baer, isn't it amazing that the first guy who ever created a boat like that would spend all that time carving and shaping it and then decide to set it on fire!!!


Humanity is simply amazing.

[Baer Charlton]

No, what amazes me is that somewhere there was a first guy who figured out that it all had to do with water inside the wood.... and that fire would make the trunk lay open that way..

Or the first guy who looked at a tree trunk that was 18" thick, and figured out that they could get a boat out of it that was 28-32" wide.... I never would have figured that.

Or, when did they figure out that they had to remove the "sap wood" which will rot, to make the pirouge out of the "heart wood" which does not???

Kids today think nothing at all about cell phones and iPods and such.. my first phone number was 2 longs and a short on a crank phone. My parents had onesided 78s and the phonograph wound up.... which was good, because we were without power about half the time in the winter.

So everytime I answer my phone in the car, because the stereo goes off, the screen changes to the phone mode and I talk to the ether... I am amazed. . . . and excited to be alive.