Interesting Moulding Facts from my Larson rep.

[EarthBarb]

I learned an interesting thing from my Larson rep yesterday. The mouldings that they sell at Joann's are not the same quality as the one's they sell us little guys.

Let me explain, I've recently bought my own frame shop after working at Joann's and Michael's for 10 years. On the last day at Joann's, I saw some new colored mouldings that are not on the Larson show room. (I live close to LJ so I pop by there to pick things up for MNSue) I asked Gary about them, to see if they sell moulding exclusively to Joann's, and he told me that I could get them, but they would never be in there show room because of the quality of them. So, every 6 months or so, when they change their wall, I'll be there to see what's new too. (Plus it's a great excuse to visit with old friends) Gary said that with Joann's doing a larger volume than me, they wanted cheaper moulding choices and LJ accomedated them.

Just some FYI for everyone trying to figure out how to compete with their prices.

:D Barb

[Dave]

Why when I read this did I immediately think of the Museum/Masterpiece glass thread? :icon11: Mm-mm, I'm becoming cynical in my old age ...

Barb, did the mldgs appear to be of inferior quality???

One difference I do note though is that your rep said that you could get them if you wanted so that would indicate they are not a JoAnne's exclusive ...but at what price?

Mm-mm ...makes me wonder ...:kaffeetrinker_2:

Were they by chance the Confetti family of mouldings??? If so, my rep showed me them and I have them ...

Dave Makielski

[EarthBarb]

No Dave, they don't appear to be inferior, and they don't have JoAnn's exclusive mouldings. But that's the way they can get price cuts so much better then ours.

They were not the Confetti family, they are about 2.5 inches, destressed, with a swirl design in then. They come in white, camel, barn red, yellow, and green. Stop by you JoAnn ETC to see them.

LJ said that they don't have any that are exclusive to any one store.

Barb

[Jerry Ervin]

I am pretty sure what you saw was the Arqadia line. I love the product and price point. You have to buy this product in box quantity only, but the boxes are usually very small with most profiles in the 50 - 150 ft range.

My POS software had some mysterious descriptions on some of the Arqadia line about a year ago with JA in the numbering system. On the next update, those numbers were gone. Someone slipped up somewhere.

And yes, you too can purchase this line. Just not chopped and joined like Joann's does.

[Dave]

If it is the Arquadia line then, yes, you can buy it in box quantities and at some great price points. I like the line and have purchased some in the past and will again in the future.

Dave Makielski

[Sarah Winchester]

...tells me that they join, fill, etc frames for Michaels. But for Joann's they only join, they do not fill the corners. Hmmmm. They must do that in the store.

[DTWDSM]

The Arquadia line is expanding with the purchase of a company in Miami last year. A new catalog is out and reps should be getting sample son if not already. The line is good and only getting better.

[Mrs.B]

I recently talked to my LJ rep about this same subject and he told me the same thing. My gripe is that LJ won't supply the garage framer but will supply this BB. I don't think most customers give a rip about the quality difference. To them, if what they have on their wall looks like what I have on my wall, it must be the same thing.
Last year at Gemini's Fall Festival this came up in conversation and one woman said she visits her local Joanns to see what mouldings they are carrying, then pulls those off her wall.
Sounds like something Paul C. might have an opinion on. Paul?

[Emibub]

My gripe is that LJ won't supply the garage framer but will supply this BB.

I imagine they make a tad more money selling to the BB's than to the home framer. It's not like they are required to make some ethical decision and not sell to the evil empire. Heck, by all standards they are the "Evil Empire".(meant as a joke) Their purpose would be to make money after all.

They have adjusted what they sell from Joann's and I have made my peace with that. I do however want to get my hands on those frames that Barb mentioned in her post, I loved them the minute I set eyes on them.

[PaulSF]

A big part of the problem with doing price comparisons with our bete-noir, Michaels, is that Michaels doesn't carry any of the same mouldings as I do. I know LJ is supplying them, but on the handful of occasions I've been in Michaels, I haven't seen a single familiar moulding. I should add, too, that all of the mouldings there look "cheap."

I can compare my prices against Aaron Brothers and other framers, item for item, because we carry the same things, and I've verified that my prices are competitive within a few dollars. But I can't do that with Michaels, if they have a unique line of mouldings.

[Emibub]

Paul, I don't think LJ supplies more than a handful of mouldings to Michael's. They have their own chop service and manufacture a lot of their own mouldings, and they are cheap.

Added: In fact, Michael's has pretty much shut LJ out. They buy their glass direct from TV, their mats and metal frames direct from Nielsen/Bainbridge and they have an approved supply list that the stores can order from their warehouse. That may come from LJ but I am not sure on that.

[Jerry Ervin]

Kathy is right. They are made right here in the framing capital of the world North Carolina. And I would wager, some are made in China.

The big M bought out 'Carolina Mirror and Moulding' several years ago. Not to be mistaken for 'The North Carolina Moulding Company'.

Years ago, that company was big in MDF mouldings.

You can buy from the company still, but your minimum order is around 5000 feet they say.

Me, I'm not interested. I always thought their product looked cheap.

[PaulSF]

Thanks Emi. Locally, Michaels has a store within 1 mile of mine, and my LJ driver stops by Michaels to make deliveries before visiting me. I've tried to get him to throw the Michaels stuff into the bay, but he's an environmentalist, go figure!

[EarthBarb]

PaulSF,
LJ does NOT supply Michaels. They have their own line that they have copied from different. They used to use Larson back when I worked there in '97 and '98, but right before I left, they would no longer let us do will calls and order anything from LJ. I think their line is call Artistic or something like that. Not sure, but now Michael's can't even cut mats on the spot, corporate has taken that away from them too. So glad I'm out of the BB frame stores.
Barb

[pollyann]

Barb,
You are lucky that you got out, unfortunately some of us are not able to yet. Michael's gets there mouldings from Artistree, a company they own. Some mouldings do come in with Larson Juhl stamped on the back, but as with any company I am sure they buy from many different vendors. We have a few mouldings from Nurre Caxton as well.

They get weekly/bi-weekly deliveries from Larson Juhl, but ONLY for over size mats and they can get glass from them in an emergency setting only.

Mats are still cut on the spot but the number of mat's that are stocked in there shops is limited. These are tagged as quick orders and they still encourage everyone to offer this service. In fact, as with everything there, there are reports showing exactly how many are done daily/weekly ect. The one thing they do well is create reports for EVERYTHING.

[PaulSF]

The local Michaels doesn't do very much in-house. I know they don't cut moulding, so of course they aren't getting that from LJ. And they don't have a CMC, so I'm guessing that like Aaron Brothers, they don't cut mats locally either. They have a drymount press, and they cut glass, and they assemble. That's about it.

[Val]

Purple stuff , note from Val -aka- Valorie-I'm serious here:
The local Michaels doesn't do very much in-house. (How do you know this, Paul?)I know they don't cut moulding, so of course they aren't getting that from LJ.
They do join oversize frames, and what's so different from those shops that order only chops and joins??

And they don't have a CMC, so I'm guessing that like Aaron Brothers, they don't cut mats locally either.
Guessing again? How do you spell Fletcher 2100? Yes, they do cut mats, for quick-sale, or when the "custom-cut mats (Artistree) come in screwed up?

They have a drymount press, and they cut glass, and they assemble. That's about it.

That's about it? That's a lot! And they practice preservation methods and have to generate a bazillion daily reports, and attend to the riff-raff, and help with the rest of the store, and stock ready-made frames, and...and...and...so much more, for very little pay and in many cases, little-to-no-training. Stressful!

Give 'em a break! This isn't the fault of the individual framer, and I'm sick of hearing about what "little they do there".....they actually do a lot, and it's above and beyond what should be expected from a normal human being and I'm grateful to be not walking (limping) in those shoes anymore.

Man, I used to be one of the biggest whiners about being an M's employee, but no more, and until you've been there/done that......get the facts! "I guess".... "I suppose"....."I hear".....blah-blah-blah. Tend to your bizness.
'Nuff said.

[pollyann]

Thanks Val,

What I guess I don't understand is why everyone who DOESN'T work at M's seems to know more about what they do there than the ones who actually do work there.

This is hard to admit but I have been with them for longer than most of you haved owned your own shops. Do I want to get out, sure I do, and I am sure my time will come. But at this point in my life I can't and I will do the best darn framing I can.

I try to post now and again and set the record straight as to what they can and can't do, there practices and so on, but it seems to fall on deaf ears and the same assumptions, accusations, ect keep coming up time and time again.

I have even checked out some of the differences I have been hearing, like they do things different in different regions. WRONG! The ads are the same in WI, CA, WA, OH, IL, NY ect. They do NOT stock paper mats in the frame shop and do not sell regular glass through the frame shop. Yes, they carry paper mats pre-cut and regular glass, pre-packaged, that is sold out on the sales floor. And they do NOT run the 50% off one, 60% off two, 70% off three sale anymore! Yes, they still run 50% off the total order, (at least for the time being)

ALL the frame shops are stocked with mat cutters,either a fletcher or C & H if there an old store, if they refuse to cut quick order mats it's because the framer at the counter doesn't want to, not because they can't or are not set up too. They do not cut mouldings, only join the larger ones that have been wedged.

I have spent time at stores in IL, MN, and WI to help with training. I just finished attending yet another training seminar and was assured that my information is correct. If you have any other questions about them, just ask.

I realize you think we are EVIL, but honestly, some of us are actually pretty nice and know what we are doing. I tell myself everyday, it's not ME there mad at just M.

[Doug Gemmell]

Thanks for the information Pollyann. It will end much of our speculation, second guessing, and assuming.

Sounds like you have a decent job there. I hope you don't mind my asking, why do you want to leave? Don't answer though if you don't feel comfortable doing it.

And.......the only employees at the BB's we take exception with are the people in the advertising dept.!

I respect what you do and wish you the best.

[Mrs.B]

I feel kinda sorry for anyone that posts or replies on the G and admits they work at a BB. We can be alittle sharp with our comments. (Me included.)

I don't tell just anyone that I used to work at Wal-Mart!

Let's face it. We all have to eat, right? Allthough, since I started my own frame shop I don't get to do that as often as I used to! I accually (sp) had my kid's senior pictures framed at HL and they did a great job.

I LOVE framing and wouldn't want to anything else.

[Cretin75]

AMEN to Pollyann and Val... big kudos :thumbsup:

I used to work for Michaels... was there for 5 years... loved my job, hated management and the low pay and few hours.

I'm now the Framing Specialist at JoAnns and I love it. Been there for almost 2 years. My team has a great client base. And I'm very proud of the designs we've been working out. Plus we even manage to get a few business accounts going.

It's a lot of work... TONS of work, working at a BB. Managing the custom frameshop, along with the framing and fine art department isn't as easy as it seems. But I take pride in it.

I've been feeling the same way as you guys... just had to bite my tongue a few times.

[pollyann]

Sounds like you have a decent job there. I hope you don't mind my asking, why do you want to leave? .

One, because I LOVE framing and feel my creative talents are stifled working under such stringent rules and regulations. I have worked with a CMC and realize all the possibilities out there, then there's the limited mouldings available and the inability to use products I feel are needed in certain jobs.

Second, see reason number ONE!

The advantages to staying at the moment are the pay (after this many years it's actually not bad), 3 weeks paid vacation, and fairly decent insurance. For most of my time there I was a single mother of 3 so insurance was vital. I have been offered jobs at several independant shops in our area but none of them could offer me the insurance.

So I had a plan, find a man with a good job, great insurance, and then break away and open my own shop. So I found a man, who was a framer! go figure, and had no insurance (what a suprise).

New game plan, he's going back to school to get his teaching liscense and then MA and hopefully he will get a decent teaching job and by then maybe I can open my own shop or work for and independant shop. By the way, his love is HISTORY, not framing, although I know I could twist his arm to cut all the mouldings if I ever get my own shop!

[Patrick Leeland]

Cretin75, you mentioned that you worked at Joann's...but then you said Fine art department...I don't have a Joann's around my area. So what would fine art consist of in a BB? I can't imagine you sell original art, but I could be wrong. What is a Fine Arts Department in a Joann's?

PL

[Kirstie]

In reply to an earlier post in this thread regarding the new Arquadia mouldings: Yes, but the new Arquadia line is not stocked in many local warehouses, so we in CA would pay frieght. I passed it up at the show because of this.

[DTWDSM]

Kristie,

Talk to your rep, if you are willing to wait a week they may be able to put what you want on a stock transfer truck going to your warehouse.

[Dave]

Ditto what Kirstie said. I waited for them to transfer and had no delivery charge.

Dave Makielski

[Kirstie]

Re: Arquadia--good advice. Rep coming next week anyway. We stock other Arquadia, but the newer line looked interesting. Thanks!

[Cretin75]

Patrick -- Fine Arts Department... anything dealing with fine arts... Canvas boards, oil, watercolor and acrylic paints, brushes, prismacolor products, drawing pencils... those sort of things. Think Arts and Crafts store, along with fabric.

Along with Pollyanna... gotta love the paid time off and the insurance. Many Indies around me do not offer that to their employers.

[Bob Carter]

I'll bet that if there was a forum for "ex-framers from indie shops" they could spell some horrific yarns about low pay, no benefits, horrible bosses, no future, etc.

I am certain I could give you the names of a few of my former framers that woud be charter members

And, most of them would probably be pretty accurate, I'll bet

At least, to the ex

[MnSue]

It's a lot of work... TONS of work, working at a BB. Managing the custom frameshop, along with the framing and fine art department isn't as easy as it seems. But I take pride in it.

Here here!! I'm not sure about Cretins JA's, but we averaged 125 pieces a week, all shapes, sizes, and styles. (I'm pretty sure EarthBarb production was higher than mine as her group's sales were ususally beating us - it was a great competition.)

My former BB team, from brand new to highly experienced - who NEEDED insurance assistance - were pretty darn good framers. Our highest outpout was 175 in a week. It was crazy.

Like any good craftsman, doctor or other "professional", corporation, or government, they are only as good as they seek to be; or as good as the leaders allow them to be.

You may be at the top of your game, but other framers maybe aren't and it is no different in ANY type of business. It is time we stop saying "BB framers are bad and only indies are good." There are good and bad in EVERY area. And they are enough former (and present) BB framers on this forum to attest to that.

Whether LJ is supplying moulding to JA's isn't my concern. My concern is taking care of my customers, and increasing my slice of the market. We are both trying to make money.

[Dave]

... There are good and bad in EVERY area. And they are enough former (and present) BB framers on this forum to attest to that.



Well said and true.

Personally I think the BB's do a decent frame package around here ...better than many of the independents.

Dave Makielski