Online Backup Storage

[Framar]

I see my ISP (Bell Sympatico Canada) has just begun offering a secure, encrypted, easily accessable online back up for about $10/month for 6 gigs of files (photos, music, whatever) - sounds cheaper and more long-lasting than burning stuff onto CDs... The back-up is automatic once you start with it and it just takes the new stuff each time.

Anyone doing this??? Sounds like a worthy investment.

This was one of the projected solutions discussed in the Photo Marketing magazine (which I no longer receive) in the issue dedicated to storage solutions and guilt-wracked digital consumers.

[Ron Eggers]

Are you using broadband or dial-up?

If it's dial-up, it's going to take a month to back up 6 gigs.

You can buy external hard drives with an obscene amount of storage for about what a year of this service will cost. Some are tiny and very transportable. They connect to a USB port and, with XP or even a functioning Windows ME, will be recognized without installing any software.

[CAframer]

I use Data Deposit Box (http://www.datadepositbox.com/factsheet.asp?promoid=1&source=google&vcn=online+backup&gclid=CMHUrq-XuYoCFSNQYwodL0ymug) ... only $2 per Gb per month ... you can back up multiple systems from multiple locations to the same account ... so it also enables remote file sharing! Very easy to set up. Backups occur constantly as changes are made on the PC. If you are looking at online backups be sure to look at this one. Ease of use and low cost makes it a winner!

To Ron's point about using external hard drives ... yes I use local storage for backups also ... but I would not want to rely solely on an external drive for critical data ... OFFSITE storage is essential! And an online backup service really simplifies this. Ask your friends and colleagues how many have offsite backups (betcha its a real small number!). Of those that do ask them how up-to-date is their offsite backup (betcha its out of date!). Now visualize a calamity (fire, earthquake, flood, riot, etc.) at the location where the hard disk is housed! POS gone! Accounting system gone! eMail gone! Other critical documents gone! And calamities of this type are not all that rare! Think how many posts there have been on this forum about floods, burts pipes and the like.

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Framar,

I think it's a good secondary method for backing up your POS folder, Documents, and accounting. As long as you are not overwriting the old data every day and are keeping several "Generations" of the data.

The reason: Suppose you damaged your database at 4pm and then did a closing and backup at the end of the day, NOT realizing the problem until the next morning? You would be left with nothing :( By having multiple generations of the data, you can go back 2 or 3 days - as necessary.

I also think it is important to use a primary backup on-site. It can be as simple as 7 inexpensive USB memory chips (about $15 each) that get used for each day of the week. These can be put in a safe or taken home at night, and will be there for you when the internet may be down. They'll get you back online immediately.

What we do here at GTP:

-A daily Lifesaver backup to ram chips, which only gets our data files and not the program files. We have 12 (2 weeks, we are closed Sundays) in the rotation.
-Once per week, we do a backup of c:\lifesaver\, QuickBooks, and MY DOCUMENTS to the house PC (via pcAnywhere and the internet).
-At the start of each month, we burn a CDR that contains the above 3 items, which gets stored in a safe at home. (the cost is less than 10 cents per month)

I think backups are extremely important. We haven't needed one yet, but it's re-assuring to know it will be there if (I should say WHEN) we do.

Mike

[Framar]

Since I do not even have a computer at my shop I am not talking about bookkeeping or POS or anything, I am talking mainly music and photographs - and from all I have read home-burned CD's have a very short shelf-life - 3-4 years under optimal storage conditions.

Somehow the storage problems I have with my computer echo the storage problems I have in my real life - the more storage facilities and shelves I build the more #### I accumulate. So I am trying to prevent having to aquire extra stuff for the computer - although I admit I would probably be like those people who rent storage units for years and just keep keeping stuff - I would probably do that with online storage - just keep chunking stuff in and never take it out!

Next week I am picking up my copy of the new book entitled "The Perfect Mess." It is about me and other real and virtual packrats.

*sigh*

[Paul N]

Mar:

I picked up a few weeks ago a 320 gig external hard disk (from Newegg.com) for about $90.

This baby has more storage (and is faster) than all my hard disks on all my PCs combined! And I can take it with me anywhere and connect to any PC and it's as big (or as small, actually) as as a book! It 's great for backing up anything.

I use it, in addition to, my daily backups (on separate USB thumb drives) , one for each day of the week.

[Natalya Murphy]

I use Data Deposit Box (http://www.datadepositbox.com/factsheet.asp?promoid=1&source=google&vcn=online+backup&gclid=CMHUrq-XuYoCFSNQYwodL0ymug) ... only $2 per Gb per month ... you can back up multiple systems from multiple locations to the same account ... so it also enables remote file sharing! Very easy to set up. Backups occur constantly as changes are made on the PC. If you are looking at online backups be sure to look at this one. Ease of use and low cost makes it a winner!


Ditto CAframer. I love Data Deposit box, especially the fact that you can put as many computer as you want on a single account and only pay for the storage you need. My invoice last month was all of $4 for backing up three computers.

[David N Waldmann]

Connected.com offers similar funtionality to Data Deposit Box, but with the ability to save multiple versions of the same file, so you can recover an earlier one if need be. It is more expensive, however - $14.95 per month for up to 4 GB, and one account per PC.

[JFeig]

I also think it is important to use a primary backup on-site. It can be as simple as 7 inexpensive USB memory chips (about $15 each) that get used for each day of the week. These can be put in a safe or taken home at night, and will be there for you when the internet may be down. They'll get you back online immediately.


This has been my favorite method for years..... previous to USB memory devices, it was floppies, Zip drives, CDs ...

The key is to take the backups home or somewhere else (off site) in case of a real disaster. Major corporations, iniversities and government agencies have done this for 60 years.


Another method - if you have a second computer at home - is to use a network setup to electronicly send a duplicate of the files to your other computer.

[Jim Miller]

Every day, I backup our data from the POS program and Quick Books Pro to USB thumb drives and compact flash drives. That is, a different storage device for each day of the week, so we have 7 consecutive days on backups at all times.

Once a month I backup all founr of our primary computers to two external harddrives, each with 250 GB capacity. So, once a month I have two complete backups of all computer hard drives.

If all of this seems like overkill, consider the days of work it takes to restore programs, drivers, settings, and configurations when a herd drive crashes. Storage devices ae known to fail, so multiple backups are a good idea. Even if you have all of your critical data backed up, it is a ton of work to put it all back into a new hard drive, unless you have mirrored the failed drive recently.

Caution about online backup services...
I serve on a PPFA committee to rewrite publications, and all of the data for one was kept on an online server. As we began our conference-call meeting one day, our committee's data guy suddenly said "Uh-Oh...we have a problem.". Turns out the online server crashed and everything was lost. It took weeks to reconstruct the lost data.

I'll keep multiple hard copies of my own backups, in my own possession, thankyouverymuch.

[David N Waldmann]

Caution about online backup services...
I serve on a PPFA committee to rewrite publications, and all of the data for one was kept on an online server. As we began our conference-call meeting one day, our committee's data guy suddenly said "Uh-Oh...we have a problem.". Turns out the online server crashed and everything was lost. It took weeks to reconstruct the lost data.

You're right to suggest caution in all things. However the situation to which you are referring is different than what has been suggested. An online server would simply be a server in another location (on the internet) instead of on the premises, and I would treat it exactly the same. That is, if it were my primary storage source, making sure that backups were made, kept and verified as useable. Apparently this did not happen in your experience. On-line backups have a very good reputation. However, I believe that all important data should have at least two backups - one on site and one off site.

What I believe the beauty of on-line backups is that it makes it very easy (a prerequisite to ongoing success in my experience) to have off-site backups because they require absolutely no human intervention.

[RozR]

How timely is this thread... I was just thinking about this - sometime in the MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!!

And, Mar - I might have to get a copy of that same book.... I am the youngest of three daughters of the Leader of the Pack Rats (God rest her soul!!) And we all joke about pack ratting and hard as I try - it is a neverending battle... always found George Carlin's routine about "stuff" pretty funny since it hit so close to home!!

But the backing up information you have all provided is so interesting and worth stepping up to the plate!

What a "Perfect" thread.

Roz

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Grumblers were recently surveyed about this, in the annual Framing Technology poll. The full results (4 year history) live at http://www.custompictureframing.com/poll_results.htm

The results are certainly not scientific, but show what your peers on the Grumble are doing.

POS SYSTEM BACKUPS FREQUENCY
41.20% Daily backup (This is alarming- should be ~99%)
34.00% Weekly backup
11.60% Monthly backup
10.40% Once in a blue moon
02.80% I DO NOT back up my data

POS SYSTEM BACKUP METHOD
25.40% I back up to a CD or DVD
23.79% I back up to a ram chip (I expected this to be #1, since its cheap & fast)
22.58% I back up to a removable hard drive
06.85% I back up to another pc in the same office
09.27% I back up to ZIP disks
04.03% I back up to an offsite storage company (internet)
03.23% I back up to floppy disks
02.02% I back up remotely via the internet
02.42% I back up to a DAT or streaming cartridge/tape
00.40% OTHER METHOD (see voting thread)

OFF SITE BACKUPS
10.4% I store backups off-site in case of fire or theft
(This is surprising- should be ~99%)

http://www.custompictureframing.com/survey/net.jpg

[Richard Darling]

I use three USB drives for my regular back ups. But I've been contemplating how to efficiently keep an off-site backup. I don't like the idea of taking home my USB drives, because then they'll get lost at home, or one of the kids will take it for a school project.

Would it be a secure alternative to use FTP to send a back up file to my website? Naturally, it would not have any links to it. It would cost nothing, but I don't know if hackers can easily access my site directory, making the info vulnerable.

[Paul N]

Richard:

Some USB drives are so small they can be attached to a key chain (some are meant to be attached that way!).

As long as you don't lose your keys, they're safe.

PS: I'd hate to put something online, only to be unable to retrieve it when it counts most. Although websites / hosting services are mostly reliable, you never know when one goes down or is unreachable. And according to Murphy's Law, they usually are when you need them the most!

[David N Waldmann]

Connected.com offers similar funtionality to Data Deposit Box, but with the ability to save multiple versions of the same file, so you can recover an earlier one if need be.

Since they offer a free trial, I decided to try out Data Deposit Box and found that one of the per client options is multiple file versions (from 1-28 copies) as well as how long to wait between (from immediate to 12 hours).

The only thing that I have to say at this point is that it is taking a long time for the first snapshot to be taken - about 20 hours and only 21MB of files so far.

I think I may be converted.

[Kirstie]

Upstairs where we have the Mac and at home we use
Apple's online "Back Up" sofware for only a few items. I' m not wild about the idea of online storage for sensitive info. yet. We have a separate back up hard drive attached to each computer, and one for the lap tops and we use daily scheduled back ups to those every night. I do use Apple's iDisk all the time to drop files in at work or home so that I can retreive them at either location and keep working, and I love that feature.

Now, for the PC at the design table, where we have IF, Mat Designer and eventually POS on that and a couple of other future terminals. We bought the Dell Precision with two 360GB hard drives. I am told by Dell that I need to set up a RAID configuration after I get the Wizard PC set up. That's done, and both PCs and the Mac are networked (by ethernet cable) into the SBC DSL router/modem. Both protected by Norton. All is peachy, but I need to set up the RAID configuration so that I can have the new Dell serve as a --someting or other-server?---for both itself and the Wizard computer. It is supposed to back up everything, all the time, to the second hard drive in the Dell for both PCs. After we get the Wizard finally set up (glitch this weekend when we broke a connector) I guess I will get a PC person out to the store to help me do this as it is beyond the capacity of anyone at the shop. Now, where to find one...

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Raid just means that the drives will have the same info on them, in realtime; in the event one of them has a physical failure. If one fails, the other will keep you online, limping along until the bad one can be replaced.

You are still susceptible to data loss as a result of a power failure/corruption, employee mistakes, fire, theft, or a virus.

Raid is no substitute for a daily backup routine that uses multiple generations of backup media (I suggest one for each day of the week. The $15 1gb usb memory keys are usually sufficient for most pos systems)

Mike

[Kirstie]

So I guess I will still set up the raid but I will need an offsite back up system as well. Flash drives may be the answer. I assume you are saying you take them home each day, week? Then replace the contents. I'm dense--not quite getting it.

Thanks, Mike!
Thanks.

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Correct

Raid doesn't do a "backup", but mirrors the data to two places simultaneously. Raid makes reading a bit faster, since it can look at either drive. If you modify or change something on your computer, both drives are immediately updated. RAID type 1 is what they sold you, which means two drives. RAID arrays can be set up to work with 3 or more drives, in a business environment, to improve performance.

A backup is something you do at the end of the day that takes an archival "snap shot" of how things are, and lets you remove it from the machine. In an emergency, you can put the backup in the computer and restore the raid drives/data to undamaged status. (fire, theft, corruption, human error, a program bug, intentional damage by an employee, a power surge, and so on)

It's important to do a backup of your POS every day, to something that gets removed from the PC every day. It shouldn't stay physically connected to the PC, because it could get zapped by a power surge - along with the computer. It is also important to have multiple backup "generations", because with a single backup device you could easily overwrite your only backup with a damaged one -- if you did not realize the problem until the next morning. That would leave you with nothing. It's best to have at least 2 backups, but one for each day of the week is even better. (example: the one labelled Monday is used just on that day, every week)

Those little USB devices are so inexpensive, that they're an ideal solution. They're often on sale for $12-$20 each. In the past, people used floppy disks, ZIP Drives, tape backup drives, or even CDr's for this.

Online is ok, too, for a periodic snapshot of the system. However, I don't recommend it for your daily routine. The problem with online is that most folks don't set it up for multiple generations of backups, which can be selectively restored. It is also slow. We use online backups in our shop every weekend, as an extra precaution. In our case, we back up the data to a server in our home. I use a program called PCAnywhere to do this.

I hope this clarifies backups and RAID somewhat.

Which POS did you choose?

Mike
Get The Picture - Lincoln, RI
Consultant to LifeSaver Software

[CAframer]

The problem with online is that most folks don't set it up for multiple generations of backups

FYI the default setting with DataDepositBox is three generations. The maximum is 28. Delay intervals between generations can be defined. The default is every time there is a change.

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Personally, I think it's good as an extra precaution, but not as a primary backup method. Most POS systems archive their data files in a certain way, and restore them in a certain way that allows the operator to just restore certain parts of the system. Ie: Just the customers, or just the moulding data, etc. Most back up just the data and not the program files. When diagnosing a problem, tech support may advise you to just bring back one component of the system which is damaged, as not to overwrite today's transactions.

Backing up the whole folder is good because it gets both, and can include your financial software and documents/spreadsheets. But with the POS, it can defeat the restore functionality mentioned above. Some POS systems also have copy protection, which may not be fully compatible with this method.

Then there are trust issues by sending everything to a third party, but i'm not even going there :)

Both ways to backup have their advantages. It's still a good practice to do both, in my opinion. Daily for the small POS backups locally, and by cd or online at least once weekly for everything else. (depending how often you change the non POS stuff on the PC)

Just one opinion ...

Mike

[Pat Murphey]

A slight clarification? I believe Raid 0 is performance improving and Raid 1 is mirroring.

[Paul N]

A slight clarification? I believe Raid 0 is performance improving and Raid 1 is mirroring.

That's correct.

[Kirstie]

Mike, thanks for the detailed response. I'm looking to the future here as all we have on the downstairs (front room) computers is IF and Mat Designer. Still, it would pay to take home those saved customer design files every day or so.
We plan to get POS next year. I know, I know how important it is, but with the Wizard learning curve, IF, a new press soon, we are in over our learning capacity (and budget) for this year. When everythign else is humming we will add POS. We have 10 framers plus ourselves and some learn more quickly than others.

[Kirstie]

OK, so is it hard to set up the mirroring? I want it to mirror both conputers, which are linked via wired router/modem, one at design table and Wizard coomputer. Remember, I'm a Mac person and all this PC language is Greek to me. BUT if someone were so kind as to type out the directions, then I could give them to a staff member who is sharper than I am at this sort of thing.

[David N Waldmann]

...When diagnosing a problem, tech support may advise you to just bring back one component of the system which is damaged, as not to overwrite today's transactions....

Even though DataDepositBox only allows you to select whole folders to backup, you can restore individual files.


Kristie;

RAID is a hardware solution on a single computer. The way it works is that you have two hard drives, but only "see" one of them. You can't have RAID, by itself, do anything about another computer on the network.

Not being intimately familiar with Dell's setup I can't tell you exactly. It is generally set up in the RAID card's BIOS which is accessed by pressing a key combination when starting the computer. If it's built in to the motherboard it would be set up within the computer's BIOS setup. There should be documentation that came with the computer?