Buying a used mat cutter - what should I look for?

[Gurduloo]

I have an opportunity to buy a very used C&H mat cutter at a very low price. It's missing the squaring arm (which I can live without) and some screws that secure the rod (which I'm sure I can fix). I'm going to take a look at it this weekend and test it out. As a newbie, this will be my first mat cutter purchase. Do you guys have any advice on things I should look out for?

[Framerguy]

Yes, you get what you pay for!!!

I don't know how you plan on cutting your mats but I would rather have all the finish worn off my C&H than try to do production mats without a squaring arm! That just is an essential part of a mat cutter to my way of thinking.

But you may know something I don't.

Luckily most of the parts you may need for this bluelight special are still available.

Good luck.

[Gurduloo]

That reminds me of another question - how would one go about getting replacement parts for a C&H mat cutter?

Regarding the squaring arm, I plan on either buying a replacement arm or improvising my own out of wood.

[Gurduloo]

Here's a picture of it if anyone's interested. Please let me know if you see anything obviously wrong with it.

http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1857747/0/nouser_1857/T0_-1_1857747.JPG

[Rick Granick]

This does not look like a lovingly-cared-for piece of vintage equipment. It appears to be missing the mat guide, the part that determines the width and accuracy of the mat border. Unless you plan to mark the back of every mat you cut and cut to these marks (without a squaring arm to hold the matboard steady), this seems like a less-than-useful piece of equipment.
I would advise you to closely examine the sliding block head to see if it fits and travels smoothly on the rod, and if it can be adjusted. Also, check the blade holder for wobble on the head. If these items are not precise or cannot be made so, this machine will be a constant source of frustration for you.
Check eBay, as well as the Grumble's for-sale forum. You can probably do better. Remember, as in framing sales, the focus should be not on price alone, but on real VALUE for the money you spend.
:cool: Rick

[Val]

That is exactly like the one I just threw away. Honest. It was well-loved once, but now worthless, and still had more parts left than the one in the picture. You could probably buy another one like it and cannibalize the parts, but probably not worth the frustration. The pressed wood base was warped as well. Head was so worn as to be unable to tighten that "wobble" Ron just spoke of.

I sent it's little head in to Fletcher as part of a rebate on my new 2200, and then put it to sleep. May it rest in pieces.

[deaconsbench]

Gurduloo (if that's really your name...hhmmm), sometimes you can get high quality for a low price. I bought my Fletcher 2000 60" mat cutter on eBay for around $300, shipped. It was so rarely used, it's almost in new condition!

If you have more time than money, the deals are out there if you'll look and be patient - but willing and able to jump on a deal when it presents itself. I would suggest passing on that C+H deal you are considering, but that's just my little opinion.

Good luck!

[Bob Doyle]

I sold an old one in better condition for $100. It was a C&H40 as was that one.

The parts are available from united

Would I buy that one? No.

[lainief]

Being a new framer, I sought advice from an established business owner regarding what equipment I should buy. I wanted to purchase a Fletcher Matpro because it would take up little room. I went to Fletcher in Conneticut and they let me try it out. The only downside was the price ($5000.00 at that time). When I asked my "friend" for his advice, he convinced me that used was the way to go. He said that it would be only a matter of time before I would want to upgrade to a computerized matcutter. He just happened to have a Fletcher wall mounted glass cutter (he gave me the manual before I picked up the Machine) and a gently used 10 year old Speedmat at a price of $2000.00 for both. My son rented a truck and went to pick up both machines. When the machines were unloaded, I noticed that the "Fletcher" was actually an old "Seal". When I called him, he spent 5 minutes telling me why I should keep it. I refused and has to rent another truck @ $100.00 to bring it back. He returned 500.00. I spent an additional $500.00 for a stand fo the Speedmat which is a piece of junk. I can't use it. From my experience, know what you are buying and get the best you can. Don't settle for something "that can be fixed up."

[Bill Henry-]

If you’re absolutely confident that this cutter can be salvaged, United MFRs can usually find parts for you.

They were able to replace the hold down bar for my C&H 4060 a few years ago.

[Bob Doyle]

LainieF, sorry to hear about the Esterly. They are up here in Maine, give them a call, maybe they will be willing to help you out with some tech support. I personally have never used one of their pieces of equipment, but an artist I respect loves hers. It is one of their early models and they still help her over the phone.

Can't hurt to call ;)

[Gurduloo]

Ok, thanks for the words of caution everybody! I was planning on marking the back of the mats anyways, so the missing mat guide isn't really an issue. That's just the way I learned to cut mats, and as a hobbyist I don't mind taking my time. I will need to either buy a replacement square arm, or build one myself. Does that sound like an impossible thing to do to anyone? It doesn't sound like rocket science to me, and a square arm for a new C&H mat cutter only costs about $50. I'll definately take a good look at how the head travels on the rod and check for wobble. Those are two things that I don't think I could fix.

[Rick Granick]

I have a cutter very similar to that one, and the sliding head block has plates at either end which can be loosened with an allen wrench and adjusted to control the head's starightness and tightness to the rod. When you are testing, if there is too much play, try adjusting these. If the head on that model does not have the adjustment feature, I'd forget it, personally.
Also, the pivoting blade holder should not wobble on the head. There is a shim kit available to correct this, but it's not a foolproof thing. If you can't get a good fit, you won't get good mats. Also, be sure the blade holder retains the blade at the set depth, and does not allow it to move during use.
:cool: Rick

[Bob Doyle]

The old mat guide bar was a bugger to keep straight, which is probably why the seller ditch it years ago! Making/getting a replacement shouldn't be too big a deal, but it had to be tightened down at two points and was a bit of a bugger to use, prob why it is missing. The newer C&H's had a one point adjustment that I just loved! Definite improvement over the model you are mulling over.

The beauty of the model you have in front of you is that the bar lays flat! nice weight, good feel using, just a good machine to use. WHEN it is working right or in good ondition. Since the base is basically pressboard be sure it hasn't gotten wet and had the particle board seperate.

If the bottom board is in rough shape, if the head is loose or wobbly, if it doesn't hold the blades tight, I wouldn't get it. All the parts can be replaced and can be purchased from united, but after a while aren't you just throwing good money after bad?

Checked EBay and all they have are logans. Steer clear of them, imo a bad C&H beats a pristine Logan hands down!

[Jim Miller]

A loose cutting head is the worst and most-common problem with old cutters, especially on machines not cleaned and lubricated regularly (like several times a day).

In scanning through the replies above, I didn't see any comments abut the hinges. On older C&H (and Carithers, too) machines, the multi-piece hinge assembly could wear and loosen. And if that happens, the cutting quality dimishes a lot.

If you have to buy major parts for the used machine, such as a new squaring arm, mat guide, head, and/or hinges, you should keep looking IMHO.

[Bob Doyle]

Just to say that I sold my C&H4060 so that I could buy a new C&H 48Pro. Sold it to a hobbyist, she loves it, but it was taken care of, cleaned weekly, used constantly. Sold it for $100. and I felt bad and gave her 2 boxes of blades.

Be sure you are not buying blindly. Have the owner show you how to take it apart, clean it, put it back together and square it up.

It feels ilke your mind was made up before you asked our opinion, and you wanted us to say go for it. Sorry we aren't! But if you are intent on buying it then get United's catalog, check out the exploded view of your unit and add up the cost of the parts you will need to replace. If all told it adds up to less than $300 then go for it, otherwise look around, ask around, maybe another frame shop wants to upgrade and will sell you a better unit!

[Rick Granick]

Good point about the hinges, Jim. One complaint I have about this machine (aside from the "flexible-handle w. care" mat guide) is that the repeated bumping of the head against the bottom hinge, such as when cutting shadow box spacers to width w. the straight blade, causes the hinge's plate to deform toward the end of the cutter slightly, throwing off the calibration of the stops. Every time I clean/lube, before tightening the screws to reattach the bar to the bottom hinge, I use a bit of "percussive maintenance" to put the hinge plate into proper alignment.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick