Gluing before joining with underpinner?

[framinzfun]

I'm sure this has come up before, but I'm terrible with the search function. We have an underpinner at my job, I've been in an ongoing battle (not really a battle, more like a difference in opinion), anyway, the boss insists that the frames need to be put in the vices with glue, allowed to dry and then underpinned..... I thing that defeats the purpose of the underpinner, and you run the risk of cracking the glue bond when the nails are shot into the corner. Who's right?

[Baer Charlton]

oh my. Are you really ready for this firestorm?

Those who are convinced of your bosses philosophy and viewpoint of "soundness" of stability of glue... and know nothing about the time brisance of a PVA that has been allowed to dry under pressure in a 50/50 cross-grain structure joint, will never change their minds.

Just go with the flow, or change bosses.

For me, the slap some glue on it, and underpin it and be done in under 5 minutes.... will always trump the futzing around with one frame for over an hour... I don't care about doing other work at the same time....

Many studies have been done about the time lost shifting gears between tasks.

But if all you have to do all day is make and fit two jobs while you wait for a new customer to come through the door......

[QuickDraw]

The only frames that I will glue before joining are those where the moulding is warped twisted, or is otherwise being contankerous and will not fit up properly. I have found with these that I can often get a solid glue joint and then nail to wind up with a solid high quality joint... ( I wonder what type things all this talk about joints will bring up???) Now where's my bannanna?

[wpfay]

Whichever path you take in the debate, there will always be exceptions to the rule.
Most of the time I glue and underpin at the same time.
Second to that is dovetail joinery (Hoffmann)
Next would be biscuit joinery
Clamping/vise and nailing/v-nailing after the glue is dry has it's adherents, and its place in the shop, just not in mine on a regular basis.

[Framing Goddess]

Since I switched from titebond glue to cornerweld, I have found that I get better results by underpinning thoroughly dry glued corners.

I did this under protest. I did not want to do that extra step. But I found that too many corners cracked open and stayed loose and gapped if I did not let them dry before underpinning. It is a time suck, but I still think it is worth it because the cornerweld glue is so much stronger once it is dry. But it definitely takes longer for it to grab.

I have found that the timing of it works out *okay* for my shop, since there is PLENTY to do while corners are setting up.

If you can make it work to glue and underpin in one step, then by all means, do it.

edie the thatsmytakeonit goddess

[Jim Miller]

...the boss insists that the frames need to be put in the vices with glue, allowed to dry and then underpinned..... I think that defeats the purpose of the underpinner, and you run the risk of cracking the glue bond when the nails are shot into the corner. Who's right?

Well, you're both right, but you're right a lot more often than he is.

You're right most of the time, because if the underpinning machine is set up properly, the action of driving the fastener will tightly close the corner. It is important to apply a thin layer of glue to the entire miter surface, and join immediately, before it begins to set up. If your machine is set up to hold the moulding pieces still throughout the joining process, then it is a waste of time take the extra step of vice-drying the glue first.

He's right on occasion, because your underpinner, which I would bet has only one vertical clamp, may be inadequate when joining mouldings of radical profile. It may be difficult or impossible to arrange that single clamp to keep such a moulding from moving during the joining process. That deficiency might not be realized until the moulding pieces move as the fastener is driven, opening the joint. An underpinning error like that could ruin the chops, or at least necessitate disassembly and re-joining, which takes a lot more time. So, for those once-in-a-while, difficult-to-join profiles, he is right. If the miters are good and the vice-drying is done properly, overnight, then the glue would hold through the action of underpinning.

The correct answer is to get a full-featured underpinner with two vertical clamps, which is capable of tightly joining almost any profile, no matter how radical. That way, The Boss would enjoy the benefits of improved efficiency, better-mitered frames, and less wasted time, and you would be in your happyplace.:thumbsup:


*As I recall, that's from a Vietnam-era protest song by Credence Clearwater Revival.

[Rick Granick]

"*As I recall, that's from a Vietnam-era protest song by Credence Clearwater Revival."
Actually, I believe that is from Buffalo Springfield's song "For What It's Worth"
:popc: Rick
Stop..what's that Sound?
Everybody look what's goin' down."

[Dancinbaer]

The shop I bought in July came with two vices and a nailer. October I bought a manual underpinner thinking I could speed up production time. Soon learned not all profiles join easy with the underpinner. Thought to myself: "I have an underpinner...I need to learn how to use it on ALL moulding". A short time ago someone posted that they glue with a vice then underpin. Thought to myself: "How strange....". Then one day I messed up a couple rails while fighting with the underpinner (the underpinner won). So I went back to the vise and nailer for that frame. The next frame I glued in the vice but then underpinned, worked very well. The last frame was a relatively flat profile. Cranked that baby out in the underpinner in no time.

Now I look at each frame that comes in and plan ahead. Glue then underpin, glue in the vice then underpin or glue in vice and nail.:kaffeetrinker_2:

[Jim Miller]

Actually, I believe that is from Buffalo Springfield's song "For What It's Worth"
:popc: Rick
Stop..what's that Sound?
Everybody look what's goin' down."

Yup, Rick, that's the one. Isn't it odd that I remembered the lyrics and melody, but not the band's name?:kaffeetrinker_2:

"There's somethin' happenin' here. / What it is ain't exactly clear. / There's a man with a gun over there, / a-tellin' me I got to beware. / I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound? / Everybody look what's goin' down."

[Rogatory]

The Chineese and the Mexicants don't seem to use glue in any of their frames and they sell a LOT of em! Think about how much time and money we waste on gluing up frames.



(for any lurkers out there; I'm just kidding)



.

[CAframer]

The Chineese and the Mexicants don't seem to use glue in any of their frames and they sell a LOT of em! Think about how much time and money we waste on gluing up frames.
(for any lurkers out there; I'm just kidding)
.

A week or so before Christmas I had a visit from someone who works at a nearby photography studio. She had a readymade under her arm ... said that a corner was loose and could I fix it? I suggested it might be better to get a replacement from her supplier seeing that this had not yet been unwrapped from the shipping packaging. She wasn't sure she would get a free replacement because she had had this frame for a long time, and frankly thought that they might have damaged it themselves in the meantime. But she would give it a try!

Time passed by, and literally the day before we were scheduled to close for Christmas in she comes again. They had sent her a replacement but this one was just as bad ... in fact worse. All the joints were loose. Could I fix it because they needed it for a Christmas order and didn't have time to get another replacement! Well much as I would like to have helped on the 23rd I was working an 18 hour day and had stuff piled up myself. So off she went.

Anyhoo ... the point of the story is that none of the corners were glued. All dry as a bone.

[Rogatory]

Andrew,
I bet she still orders her frames from them doesnt she?

[Jim Miller]

It takes about ten minutes to add glue into those dry, loose corners and secure them with a strap clamp. I charge only $15 per corner for the invaluable service of bringing those Chinese and Korean corners together. If they forgot to underpin one or two, that's extra.

And for only a few dollars more, I will add a dustcover that doesn't look like a cheap grocery bag, BumpOns, and WallBuddies. It costs just a little more to go first class, eh?
:D

[Val]

I glue, vise, let dry and then v-nail, every time. My v-nailer is an older MitreMite, and has little in the way of fences, or support, so unless I glue and vise and let dry first, it slams the miters apart no matter what the profile. Takes extra time, but I haven't had a single miter jar loose this entire year , which is as long as I've been using the v-nailer.

I have 12 vises, by the way, (inherited several this year), so on frame-joining day I can get a lot going at once!

[DS]

Being an old Industrial Arts teacher, I have always taught that if a corner was glued properly and that corner was smashed against a wall, the wood would split somewhere other than on that glue line. If this is true - why do we even need to v-nail the corner?

[Dancinbaer]

Being an old Industrial Arts teacher, I have always taught that if a corner was glued properly and that corner was smashed against a wall, the wood would split somewhere other than on that glue line. If this is true - why do we even need to v-nail the corner?

I've read the nail in any shape or form is a back-up in the event the glue fails. In my relatively short experiance, I've fixed two frames that had glue fail.

[RoboFramer]

I have 12 vises, by the way,

Wow! go on - list them!



Being an old Industrial Arts teacher, I have always taught that if a corner was glued properly and that corner was smashed against a wall, the wood would split somewhere other than on that glue line. If this is true - why do we even need to v-nail the corner?

Yeah, but it would split at the joint, maybe with the glue drying 'harder than the wood' there may be bits of wood from one side of the join still stuck to the other. The V nails would stop it from falling apart completely maybe but who cares if you've smashed it against a wall!

Anyway - if glueing and V nailing only you can just do it, fit everything in and wrap it up for collection whilst the glue is still drying and move on.

[Patrick Leeland]

We have this thread every couple of months or so. We need to find new things to think about, this is old, I have probabley seen this about five times now. The same stuff is said, nothing new. It drives me batty.


PL

[PaulSF]

We have this thread every couple of months or so. We need to find new things to think about, this is old, I have probabley seen this about five times now. The same stuff is said, nothing new. It drives me batty.


PL

Yes, but think about how fun it is to periodically confuse the poo-poo out of relative newbies like me!

[Dancinbaer]

We have this thread every couple of months or so. We need to find new things to think about, this is old, I have probabley seen this about five times now. The same stuff is said, nothing new. It drives me batty.


PL

Nothin' wrong with reviewing the basics now and then to remind us why we are doing things the way we are (or aren't) doing them. I've learned a few things from this thread.

[Val]

And some people haven't heard this stuff before, Patrick.....not all of us have been on the Grumble forever. Every time things come up that have been covered before, such as this one, I learn something new, that didn't come up the previous time(s). Or am reminded of some things I'd forgotten. And I've forgotten a lot over the years!!

Bear with us..... you might even learn something, too!;)

[Jerry Ervin]

I have 12 vises, by the way, -Val


Wow! go on - list them! -Robo


I don't have 12 but here goes.

I smoke, I like alcohol is most forms, and I enjoy the company of extremely friendly women.

Does eating a diet rich in fatty foods count?

[Val]

Jerry, I bet if you thought reeeeeally hard you could come up with 12!

And I'm not listing mine.....so there! Some secrets are better left had! :p

[RoboFramer]

I think that this (TFG) is my only vice, unless you count work!

[Patrick Leeland]

Sorry all I have been working on some stuff that is not working out. So I just want to yell and be grumpy.

I wont interupt again on this one.

PL

[Dancinbaer]

Sorry all I have been working on some stuff that is not working out. So I just want to yell and be grumpy.

I wont interupt again on this one.

PL

That's quite all right. I get that way when I can't decide whether to glue-vise (or vice) then nail OR glue-vise then v-nail OR simply glue and v-nail. One thing is for sure....glue goes first....right?

[Pat Murphey]

Being an old Industrial Arts teacher, I have always taught that if a corner was glued properly and that corner was smashed against a wall, the wood would split somewhere other than on that glue line. If this is true - why do we even need to v-nail the corner?

I glue first, then smash the frame against the wall - if the joint doesn't hold, I throw in some V-nails.