Frame Join programs

[Elaine]

Does anyone utilize the join programs that are starting to pop up?? They are becoming more aggressive with the incentive to use them.

Any feedback, opinions, etc????

Thanks

Elaine

[Framerguy]

I have not heard of them as yet.

Are they being offered by the suppliers??

What specific incentives are they offering and are they just to suck you into the program (such as free shipping for the first 6 months) or are they permanent incentives??

I would think that, if you normally buy chop, the join program would be more costly as you have a much larger shipping cost to contend with and the C&J charges are always higher than chop only. And your underpinner, what do you do with it if you buy all your frames already assembled??

I suppose if you don't have chop saws or an underpinner it would be your best alternative but, that begs the question, why does one enter into a fulltime framing business without all of the essential equipment to operate that business?? :shrug:

Framerguy

[Val]

Delta Mat & Moulding, based in Sacramento, has a "Framer's Assist" program. Several specified mouldings are joined at chopped prices, and if you're within a certain number of miles (I don't know how close, but we are) they have free delivery for orders over $125, and under that, delivery is pretty nominal. Out of the area, regular shipping for joined isn't that much more (or any more) than shipping long lengths, or even regular UPS-handleable pieces.

Another company offered a join-for-chop price for me while I was recovering from hip surgery, and I was very grateful for the break, as I was moving pretty slow for awhile. Ask your rep, under special circumstances such as that some companies might consider doing that. It sure helped us not to get terribly behind until I was back up to speed and could chop. And join!

I'm glad to hear that some other companies are offering this program now.

I wouldn't do it all the time, but sometimes being able to just unwrap a finished frame and pop the artwork in can be very helpful.

[Pat Murphey]

If you use LJ, check with your Rep to see if you qualify for their program - very reasonable fixed priced with coloring and puttying. If you are on their truck route with free shipping you can't beat this deal. I know that I will never order another chop from them - It costs me more to join in time labor and aggravation than their nominal charge.

[tnframer408]

Agree with Pat. We use LJ's program on larger profile mouldings like some of the big Javas and Banisters, the really rock-hard mouldings that are blade-destroyers, or those difficult to join like a couple Williamsburgs. COst isn't that bad, and we add this cost into the moulding markup. Easy, quick and like others said, eliminates lots of labor.

[Elaine]

It is the LJ program that I am looking at. They deliver to my door once a week, free delivery, chop price plus nominal charge per joined frame (less than labor and waste for errors). Of course, if you go exclusive LJ the join fee is waived.

I am weighing the whole idea of efficiency in the backroom and affording a helper that needs to be trained. I would rather utilize these options than hire someone. I have all of the equipment except that I don't currently chop frames. I carry a good supply of standard size frames by Furst Bros. and this fits the quick turn around issue for now. I also have other moulding vendors that do not offer this and would continue to join those frames.

I figure that time is money and I'm spending a lot of time on some things that can be done differently and utilize the saved time on better marketing, etc.

Just my thoughts, and was curious as to what others were doing.

[Bob Doyle]

Armel has been offering Join for Chop price on delivery orders for a long time now. NJ offers 30% for three of same size same style joins. 50% off for 5 off same same. At least they did last I knew. 2 or 3 years ago.

[seido]

I get my LJ frames joined. They deliver to me 2 times a week by truck from Miami.

Last week they messed up a join on a triple stacked moulding and had to redo it...the good news is that I didn't have to eat the cost...they redid it and apologized for the delay. I love LJ! Their products and service are "exceptional" as is my rep!

I cannot justify cutting and joining equipment in my small 1 person operation. It would take me years to make up the cost of the equipment.

My only issue is with LifeSaver which offers no option for pricing joined. I've emailed them but no change in that system yet. I've just upped the markups to accomodate for a few extra bucks of joining fees.

Joel

[Creative Chicks]

Wow, I'm having a hard time understanding the rationalization for using the join program exclusively. With the exception of an illness in Val's case, I can't see "giving up" all that potential profit.

I have used the join option when the need was dire, but was not thrilled with the craftsmanship. My Morso paid for itself in less than a year, and we are not a huge operation by any stretch.

Lets just take one LJ frame as an example of my point. #557591 is a 2 1/8 wide frame that I can purchase wholesale for $4.69 per foot. Lets say I need a 16x 20 frame, so I purchase length and pay $35.02. The join cost would be $79.80. That is cutting into my profitability is a big way, considering the chopper was paid for years ago.

If the frame is too wide for the chopper, I'll use the chop program. But you'll even hear me "grumble" about that because of the lost profit. I really am not the ultimate penny pincher, but why not make the extra money for ourselves?

Lori

[Jay H]

Can anybody possibly think of a more inefficient way to buy frames? I agree with Lori.

5 sticks of $4/ft moulding equal $200/wk. If you order chops instead adding 63% (according to my LJ price guide) equaling $320 the vendor has just had one heck of an upsell. Subtracting the would be waste lets call the difference $100.

I don’t see this as a great long-term solution even if they joined them and delivered them for free. Furthermore at that low volume, I wouldn’t see that as a value if they cut mats and fit the 5 frames for $100.

At the end of the month that shop has given a supplier an extra $400! How much is a Morso chopper and Pistorius underpinner these days? In 6 months, or less, the equipment would pay for itself if you bought used. The benefits for being able to actually build frames go well beyond this simple example. It can shorten turnaround, allow you to take advantage on box prices, resize frames, and build photo frames and other store inventory and….

I’m guessing that suppliers are offering this to shops that rarely buy chops or joins.

If I told you about a “frame treatment” that increased labor by 15 minutes per frame but allowed you to up your average ticket by 65%, would you be interested?

We could easily include buying one stick of moulding at a time into this conversation but that’s another day. It’s almost as inefficient in some cases.

Joel, does a frame you order joined have a higher percieved value? If not, why would it matter to the customer how you order frames? If you can mark it up today and sell it and buy joined, then wouldn't it be worth the same tomorrow if you had bought a box and are going to join it?

Carry on.

[Paul N]

I agree with Lori and Jay.

Unless you have a special deal and you can get your joins at chop price, you're throwing away a good part of your profit.

[Pat Murphey]

Hey! Join programs we are talking about are flat rate - not the per foot difference in the catalog. LJ's is so low that I can't justify chops from them any more. Call your Rep for pricing and to see if you qualify.

[Jay H]

I realize that Pat, but we are discussing the jump into chop/join in the first place. If join were free, the difference between length to joins is very substantial. If the joins were FREE its still a very expensive way to buy moulding.

[equineart]

I agree with Pat, the small amount that they are charging me to join it is much less that what it would cost me in time. I have a diverse clientel and order frames from very contemporary to very traditional. Even thou I have a chopper I do not have room for length moulding to be stored. Especially the amount of different ones I would have.

I specialize in shadowboxes and am paid very well to do them. The chop price verses length is less than I would have to pay to hire someone to come in and do it! Larson Juhl does an excellant job with the chop and join.

I have 14 joins coming form them in todays truck and I have all but 3 of the pieces ready to put in them and go. The three that are not ready, I did not have the mats in stock and had to order those also.

I am not saying this is best for everyone, but it is for me.:D

[Jim Miller]

I realize that Pat, but we are discussing the jump into chop/join in the first place. If join were free, the difference between length to joins is very substantial. If the joins were FREE its still a very expensive way to buy moulding.

It's interesting to see the different points of view on this.

Jay, I agree that if a frame shop already has the tools and skills to cut and join, then it seems silly to give up those profitable, in-house labor functions. Besides the price difference between length & chop, there's also the benefit of controlling the quality. Most supplier-joined frames are OK, and some are very good, and some are poor. On average, mine are better, and I wouldn't let a bad one out of my shop.

On the other hand, if a shop is just getting started, or if an established other-business is getting into framing as an adjunct, the situation might be altogether different. If the business does not have the tools and skills already in place, then buying joined frames might make more sense than renting more square feet, buying the equipment adn training, and applying labor to it.

I'm thinking about photographers, for example. A lot of them, and photo processors, are getting into framing as an adjunct to their established business. Perhaps that's due to the "digital revolution", which has renewed interest in DIY photography and has pulled the rug out from under anyone who used to live on processing photographs.

[Elaine]

First of all, the prices are CHOP prices and a FLAT fee for the JOIN.

In my situation, I already purchase at chop prices and am in the partnership program of LJ. I join my own frames and 99% of the time they join fine, but it always seems like there is some fussing with them, and if I don't like them, or ruin them on my vnailer for some unknown reason, I eat the bill on that; if it is a bad chop, then LJ replaces at no charge. I do not have the equipment to chop anything right now and the space I have would have to be renovated to accommodate that, nor have I ever chopped a frame, so I figure the waste factor will be high during the learning phase. i.e. the reason for chops.

I am a single person shop right now, and I have just about every piece of technology that is new, but am having a difficult time keeping up without working 24/7. I don't have the time to hire and train someone right now - too busy. The past attempts to train people, have been nightmares - for some reason, people can't measure! So, I was looking at a short term fix by utilizing the join program and saving the cost of hiring someone and paying WC, unemployment, disability, payroll taxes, etc. ALL of THAT, makes the join program seem pretty CHEAP! No headaches, no whining, etc.

IF I was buying box quantities and chopping my own stuff, I might think differently. But, when you have orders for LJ's Prague, Isabella, Aubusson, Prado, Bolshoi, and Chateau moulding, you ain't gonna have them sittin in a box waitin to be chopped. That would be a waste of money and a high waste factor.

So, I think everybody's situation is different and they shouldn't be criticized for what they think or how they decide to buy. You need all the facts. Not all of us are buying boxes of 1" black moulding.

my 2 cents

Elaine

p.s. just got two very large joins of Prague today, and the joins were gorgeous!

[seido]

I'm in the same spot as Elaine. 1 person op etc.

I rent space from an art gallery and have a workroom so small that I hurt myself everytime I turn around to answer the phone. There isn't enough room for me, let alone a chopper, joiner and sticks.

The last big project I did was a 29 x 90 Roma 4" Tabacchino. I had no choice but to order it joined (it barely fit into my workspace). Roma crated it and shipped it by truck from Atlanta...they charged me $135 to pack and ship. I passed it on the the client and everyone was happy, especially me! If I had messed up that join it would have cost me much more than the join fee and the shipping...so even if I had the equipment and the space, I would have ordered the join.

Even so getting chop prices and a flat charge to join works best for me because it allows me more time to do the jobs and get out there and get new clients...network...network...network! My time is much more valuable to me than the difference between length, chop and join.

That said, if you have the space, the equipment and the time, ya gotta do what ya gotta do!

Joel

[Jim Miller]

...My time is much more valuable to me than the difference between length, chop and join...

Joel, your situation stands in stark contrast to the way it used to be, in the framing industry.

There are a lot of old-time framers who can remember when chops were not available. If you wanted to build a frame, you had no choice but to buy length. So, in those days a frame shop might have displayed a few dozen profiles on the sample wall. Chop services changed everything. With easy availability of chops, we can display hundreds of samples and not worry about stocking or buying them in length.

To these old-timers, who have expensive, well-used cutting and joining equipment waiting in the back room, the thought of buying joined frames seems wasteful.

And for them it probably is just that. But for you, having the equipment, space, and skills to cut and/or join everything you sell might mean seriously changing the scope of your business. And for you, why bother with all that when you can buy it joined?

[seido]

Right now I'm "rebuilding" a business that was "out of business for almost 3 years".

In no way am I "dissing" other methods of getting a frame done. If I can build up the volume to justify going the other route I have no problem doing it.

Joel

[Patrick Leeland]

This is definitely athing that each shop has to weigh. My choice would be to do 90% myself-chop and join. I feel I would be laying too much on the table by doing it another way. The 10% would be the PIA Roma profiles, something in a rush, things like that. I also feel if you rely on suppliers too much it can limit you. You can not do unik design where the moulding is cut on its side or using fillets the wrong way. It is left up to them. Now with some people that is not a big deal. But it all depends on the shop and what you have going on. in the end I think it would be best to have a mix.

PL

[Jay H]

Jim, I’m not old timer but I still remember when a frame shop actually had to stock frames.

Think of all these services by vendors as tools. That’s all they are to me.

Playing guitar, distortion is a tool I use. So is flange, reverb, wah, chorus, tremolo and on and on. I need them all because they are each important at certain-specific times. If you were to remove all but say my distortion pedal, I can still play guitar but I would be severely limited in what I could play to the point where I wouldn’t be very useful, audibly speaking.

It’s becoming obvious that one could actually run a frame shop using only one limiting tool. I can see a new shop using this tool a lot. I can see a particularly busy or small shop using this tool much less. I can even see a fully tooled shop using this sparingly for exotic or difficult profiles. However I don’t see how it’s viable to use one tool exclusively in any circumstance for long.

I especially don’t understand how it works with nicer mouldings. If you’re selling say $15/ft profiles often that’s a difference of $9/ft. So an order of two sticks pockets the supplier an extra $180. For two sticks of moulding!!!!! If it took a whole hour to chop and join the frame, I’ll never be convinced that $180/hour isn’t really great gig. In fact if your that busy, I’ll do it for $90. Without a doubt one would be glad to do that and you would still pocket $90 more dollars. Please forgive me but I can’t fathom thumbing my nose at this kind of money.

Do I understand that now we are discussing paying a crating and shipping fee…..

If I woke up this morning and my shop was 800 sq ft….no wait…my first shop was and I stocked, chopped, and joined my own frames….hmmm

If I woke up this morning and my shop was in a closet and I had a back log of 100 orders, I would buy joined frames and not think a second of it. In spite of that I wouldn’t/couldn’t ignore the giant sucking sound of money going to the supplier for very long on every single order. I must say, if I understand this situation correctly, I’m doing something very very wrong. Very wrong!

Carry on!

[seido]

Jay...

If the moulding I was talking about was LJ there would be no crating/shipping fee...it was Roma. They are in Atlanta, and I'm in South Florida. (LJ delivers to me 2x a week, no charge)

So the decision is, do I turn down a job that I'm making a clean $1000 on or do I order a joined frame? Yes, if it was LJ there would have been more profit. Yes if I had the facilities to cut and join there would have been more profit...but I can't afford to turn down any business right now. This job was so well received that 15 more pieces followed from this client. I more than made up the extra bucks in volume and goodwill.

As I said before, If I had the workspace and the space for the equipment, I would certainly cut and join but, each of us has different circumstances under which we function as a business and right now this works best for me.

Joel

[Jerry Ervin]

...do I turn down a job that I'm making a clean $1000 on or do I order a joined frame?



Never turn down a job that you can easily clear that kind of profit.


Order the joined frame.