Bainbridge Black Speed Mount

[Sherry Gray]

Not only was I excited about Bainbridge's new top mats coming soon, but I was thrilled about the new black speed mount. I've been whining to my assistant for a year that I would love to see black dry mounting board come on the market. I bet she will be as thrilled as I that it's finally here, perhaps so she won't have to listen to me say it every other week. Is anyone else planning to purchase this new product?

[Ron Eggers]

I noticed the black ArtCare fomeboard, but are you sure about black SpeedMount? I missed that one.

[CharlesL]

Sherry,
YES!!! We've been having a hard time getting black sticky-board for mounting mewspaper articles. (I sure hope this is the same thing as speed mount, or I'm gonna feel like an idiot! No, wait. I already AM an idiot. Never mind)

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by CharlesLowry.:
We've been having a hard time getting black sticky-board for mounting mewspaper articles. Well that could be a cat-astrophe!

betty

[MerpsMom]

dang, ya beat me to it.

[Ron Eggers]

I just took another look at the brand new L-J price list. There appear to be some product lines in there that haven't even been released yet and I imagine they're trying to avoid having to send out suppliments in two weeks. I didn't see anything in there about a black SpeedMount. I'm guessing it's the black ArtCare fomeboard Sherry saw. Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. It happens.

My weapon of choice for mounting newspaper articles and similar is Fusion 4000 on black fomecore. I may switch to black Artcare fome. I've also used Crescent Perfect mount sheets on black f/c and some use a similar product, 3M's PMA (Positionable Mounting Adhesive.) All these adhesives are clear, so the black board helps prevent the ghosting of the image from the reverse side.

Speedmount isn't a sticky board, but a fome board with a low-temp dry mount tissue preapplied. It's a product I haven't been able to warm up to (ha ha ha ha,) so I don't care if they make it in black or not.

[Rebecca]

Oh I know I'm always being a killjoy, but have you wild and crazy newspaper mounters considered mounting a copy of the article in question and tucking the unglued original in the back of the frame (encapsulated, sandwiched in Artcare, etc.)? Laser prints are pretty cheap.

I know, I know, the article is worthless, no one cares... but 30 years down the road I guarantee someone is going to think it's VERY IMPORTANT and it will be adhesived all to heck.

(I'm a little sensitive right now because I've just had a drymount horror story come in, and I don't think it will have a happy ending :( )

Rebecca

[Ron Eggers]

What I normally do, Rebecca, is to mat, mount and frame the original newspaper article. Then I'll take a second, uncut version of the newspaper (at least the section) and put it in a sleeve on the back. Obviously, these are all recent newspapers where we can actually get a second copy. Often, the customer will bring in two or more when they first come in.

Copies have not been well-received by my customers. They just don't look like newsprint.

I do believe that careful dry mounting is sometimes the most practical way to keep some types of items with sentimental - not collectors - value intact. I know this is not a universally accepted philosphy among framers, much less conservators, but there you have it. I am continuously reevaluating this practice.

Ron Eggers
Wild and Crazy Newspaper Mounter

[Rebecca]

Well Ron, I like your sleeve idea! I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the other. The sentimental vs collectable line is fuzzy, and interestingly enough, a fair amount of the money is in family sentiment.

On a tangent, what with all the floods in Eastern Europe, and the great damage done to the Prague Library's collection (for just one example), I bet we in N. America will spend more preserving worthless but sentimental family papers than will be spent rescuing that library's priceless collections. Something like pets in N. America living better than humans most other places. Not a sermon, just a musing.

Rebecca

[UzZx32QU]

I've been trying to encourage my clients to let me scan the article, fix it up and reprint a beautiful copy on my epson archive printer 2000p. It should last over 100 years and not yellow. I charge $25.00 for an 8 1/2 x 11 size. It's not really a money maker but not bad either. GP is $20 for 15min work. I also use Filmoplast R on the back and mount to black rag using fussion4000 if working with an original.

Both ways cost about the same. The second is charge for a Filmoplast mount + a mount to rag and in many cases a special fitting.

My two cents

framer

[FrameMakers]

We've been using black Kool-Tac for years.
This is exactly the same as Speedmount, even made on the same production line. They also have it on AF artcare.

[EllenAtHowards]

Used to do the black substrate thing, but now we do color photocopying. I have our local copy guy pretty well trained (Yes, I want to see the bleedthrough from the back, but just a little of it). We have a double opening mat of an ad about Howards that we ran in the paper when we used to waste our money on those "Business" supplements. One of the original article and one of the color photocopy done when it was first printed. Sells the photocopy every time. We charge $6 per 8.5x11 page, and I take 3-4 over to the guy every week. And I take over the stuff I need to have done too, so that way, I get done what I never get around to, get to drive in daylight, and take the puppy on an outing all in one fell swoop... efficiency!

[Ron Eggers]

And yet nobody has been able to tell us unequivocally whether there is, in fact, a new black SpeedMount.

I remain skeptical, though disinterested. :confused:

[CharlesL]

Many, if not all of our custs want the original article, on newsprint, framed. We've found that, when doing so, eventually the print on the BACK SIDE will bleed through, and it looks like a mess. UNTIL, we found that, mounted on black board, the problem goes away.
Sticky board works great for this...and, no. Most customers that bring in a cut-out newspaper article aren't interested/don't want to pay for c/p framing. It's hard, really hard, to educate a customer that can't afford/won't pay to be educated. (LOVE these slashes!!!)

[Lois Bauby]

The answer is YES.

[jframe]

We have customers take clippings to Alpha Graphics to get color copies (they pay for it, and they approve it on the spot). They are nearly identical to the original, if not better. Last week we framed an old letter from a gggrandmother that sevral family members wanted cpoies of. They were perfect, and they didn't have the wrinkles from being folded and handled for many years. I'm very surprised at the quality. I don't know if the employees at AG are more knowledgeable or if you just pop it into the copier and go.

I sure hope everyone is charging correctly for the services you provide. Time = $$$$.

[Rebecca]

I appreciate that it can be an uphill struggle trying to do the C/P best for a low end job, but I am glad the the color copies are working for at least some of you.

Rebecca

[nona powers]

Yes, there is a black Speedmount.

Kaye Evens and I also asked for an archival black Speedmount. The company, Nielsen Bainbridge, is very dedicated to preservation framing products and hasn't wanted to produce one because they don't want to encourage framers to mount things down and they think it will be misunderstood if they come out with an archival black Speedmount. The glue is a non-damaging one, although not easily removable and if the support is non-damaging, there are times when mounting is called for. I realize 99.9% of the time we should not mount, BUT, I've mounted my own newspaper articles and I didn't want a copy, I wanted the article. I put it on an archival board with fusion 4,000. Not to the highest preservation standards BUT if mounting is desired for whatever reason, at least it won't add to the deterioration beyond the mounting itself.

Artists want something to mount on. I'm framing right now a beautiful watercolor that the artist painted on wonderful paper but then mounted it with spray glue on a chipboard. That makes no sense. The artist wants it mounted down and flat. An archival Speedmount would be perfect. Low temp, and somewhat removable. I have taken things off Speedmount with the heat from a hair dryer but a framer should never assume something would come off without damage. If it's mounted, it's mounted.

Nona Poweers, CPF, GCF
www.nonapowers.com (http://www.nonapowers.com)

Gee, I can write something without the word FACTS in it. Oops, sorry.

[Rebecca]

I'm not trying to be difficult and obstreperous, I'm really not. smile.gif I just don't understand why one would dry or sticky mount rather than encapsulate or just hinge and mat. Good for Bainbridge for not wanting to make an "archival" stickyboard. "Archival" is one of those fuzzy terms like "acid free". If an adhesive's ingredients haven't been fully identified, and independently tested, and the results freely available, it shouldn't be called archival. And if it isn't reversible, it isn't archival. I don't care what they say about Fusion 4000 - in many (most?)cases it is not reversible.

The artist story is depressing. I wish art schools had courses where conservators could teach basic principles and techniques. It would be so easy for your artist to learn how to either flatten her own work, or to mount it properly with Japanese paper and wheat starch paste. I'm sure she could arrange a private lesson with a local conservator. These techniques aren't secret, or even particularly difficult. They just need to be approached with a certain mind set and practiced.

Oh well, the Grumble would be boring if we all agreed about everything wouldn't it?

Rebecca

[Framerguy]

Rebecca,

I suspect that encapsulation in Mylar D or similar materials may not be all that familiar to many framers out there. They may well have read about encapsulation on the Grumble or elsewhere but I wonder how many actually USE the technique on a regular basis or have any idea when it would be appropriate to use it for any type of mounting, much less c/p mounting.

And some I feel just don't think that it is cost effective to take the time to lay everything out, apply double sided quarter inch tape to the materials, and take the special effort to make sure everything lines up correctly and lays flat after the bonding takes place, and then final trim it and THEN mount the package onto the backing board when all the customer wants is this little piece of memorabilia "stuck" onto her mat so she can show it to her friends!

Encapsulation is a fast and efficient way of mounting many types of items that would otherwise be totally ruined by drymounting or using sprays. But, like everything else worth doing, it takes a little practice to get the basic technique down and be able to do the work in a speedy fashion.

In this hectic world of "must have yesterday" attitudes it is my opinion that some framers feel that it may just be faster and easier in the long run to give the customer temporary satisfaction and let time work out any concerns that crop up later on.

BTW, those may also be the same framers who don't really care about FACTS, what it stands for, what it can do for our industry, or whether it lives or dies beyond this fall.

Framerguy

[nona powers]

Your right, encapsulation would be better, but there will be framers who will mount things, as I have done my own newspaper things and some of my children’s art. It is easier and faster. I know, slap my hands, I deserve it.

I still think an archival, and I use that word because it would never be suitable for the highest levels of framing, so I don’t want to use preservation but an archival Speedmount type product would be better than most methods and that’s why I mention it here. Feedback would be interesting and you’ve provided that. Thank you. (I really, really value your opinion because you can see the need for FACTS and subscribed to it so I think your wonderful!!!!) Quite the conundrum for framers, trust me, there are times for mounting and times for not mounting and in the commercial framing world, that’s the way it is. Time becomes a factor and clients needs.

I do teach a class about how to frame for artists at SDSU along with lots of other info, (but I don't advocate they glue down their art). I describe the class on my website. The reason I point it out is that I offered it to the University as a regular class for art students and was told it was too practical. Interesting.

Nona Powers, CPF, GCF
www.nonapowers.com (http://www.nonapowers.com)

[Rebecca]

"Too Practical"!!! Isn't that silly! That's like saying English Grammer 101 is "too practical" for an undergraduate degree. :rolleyes:

And thanks for your input Framerguy.

Back to the speedmount - yes, I can see that it could be useful for ephemera - trade show displays etc. that are not intended to last. But in that case an "archival" board wouldn't be necessary. And I would think the manufacturer would be getting themselves into legal difficulties if they made an "archival" stickyboard, with out being darn sure it didn't cause any longterm damage and remained reversible. The word "archival" suggests that it would be used in an archives, which sticky board wouldn't be. Archivists are pretty fussy about contact materials.

Now if they could make a non-damaging board (easy), with a truly reversible, stable adhesive (harder, but I'm sure possible), then it could be called C/P and all would be happy. smile.gif

Rebecca

[jframe]

Just some thoughts, no solutions:

Rebecca you are right, of course. Do you ever (as a conservator) give customers options, or is it always all or nothing. I'm just curious, I don't know how conservators deal with good, better, best type treatments.

As framers, we live with it every day. I'm sure it will be many years of reprogramming before framers will only offer the proper treatment for every piece. Sometimes it is the customer in framing who chooses "nothing" because he doesn't want to pay the price that includes all the proper components.

Speaking of ephemera, dry mounting may not be a great alternative. There are conventions and shows all across the country where ephemera is traded and sold. Some of it is very collectible and very rare.

Dry mounting materials are probably equal to the cost of encapsulation materials. I can't see that one saves much time over the other. So often clippings are folded, bent, wrinkled or cut right next to the print :( when they come in that it takes extra time to get them straight in the mat opening.

I have had customers as well as framers object the gloss of mylar.

Has anyone considered dry mounting the clippings with Fusion 4000 to Bainbridge 8644? It costs more, but then so would an archival black sticky board.

[Rebecca]

Hi Jo -

Yes, I give options all the time. There's no problem so great that "do nothing" isn't a viable option (except wet moldy stuff, and that needs to be dried out quick). I often send potential clients away with their art and artifacts tucked under their arms, either because of cost, or the risk/benefit ratio is not looking good, or I believe, and tell them, that their money is better spent on good quality framing or storage materials rather than conservation. It's silly isn't it, but I'd say I send a good 10% - 15% (this is after thinning them out on the phone first!)of clients out the door armed with nothing more than a leaflet on how to store or frame their piece safely.

I make a good, but not great living, but really, I want to make sure that the client is comfortable with their decision to have a treatment done. It makes for happier relationships, and is more satisfying for me.

I'm really not trying to be holier than thou in this thread. Good framer's are rare and valuable, and I treasure them. If I were a framer I'm sure I'd be there drymounting with the best of them! It's the decision making criteria that's so important, and you have to remember that I see the disasters - the bad decisons and plain old mistakes, so that colors my perception.

Rebecca

[Ron Eggers]

I'm not trying to be difficult and obstreperous Me, neither, but what possible objection could there be to mounting and framing one copy of an original newspaper article and saving an intact copy in a sleeve? If our local paper has a circulation of 100,000 are we to preserve every copy?

I'm very sorry, but Seal and others still sell an awful lot of mounting presses and I can't believe they're all going to bad framers.

I could easily make a case for using UV glazing on every single framing project. A $10 poster becomes a $150 poster once it's framed and we don't want it to fade any sooner than necessary. But I am highly sceptical of framers who refuse to dry mount anything at all.

Rebecca, I love that you're here. You're a bona-fide Grumble treasure and I'm not angry. I just sound that way.

So now we know there's a black Speedmount. I stand corrected.