Something ain't right here

[Emibub]

I have had the occasion twice in the past couple of weeks to visit a Z Gallerie. They have always carried preframed art and I always thought had realistic prices on them. As I was perusing the art I noticed several that were from Roma's premade line. The series of chairs done in the Giovanni line comes to mind. That one as an example was only selling for a couple hundred bucks. I paid close to that at cost. If I were to sell that example in that exact moulding it would retail around $450 for me. I was under the impression that those examples the moulding companies made available to us were for examples only.

I happened to be in there again this weekend, because my sister can't make up her mind on a sofa. I looked a little further at their preframed art and discovered some available from Neilsen Bainbridge. They were their "Hibiscus" and "Lily" samples done up in the 117 profile and the silver bevel accent. They were retailing at Z Gallerie for $70 each. My cost would be $49.95. Even if I just put a retail price on those I would have to sell it for at least $100. When I purchase those examples I usually price them out as custom to reflect what a customer will pay if they choose to do something similar.

This has been ruminating in my brain the past couple of weeks, after all something has to, right? As has been discussed in an earlier thread, premades are getting more attractive and harder to compete with. Heck, I was just at a Crate & Barrel and assumed I would see some upper end framing there and was dismayed to find inexpensive wall decor there as well.

Obviously these company's have the right to sell what they want to sell but I am alarmed that our very own moulding company's are blatantly selling this stuff to home decor stores at obvious prices I can't compete with on a custom level. It is one thing to push cheap imitation knock off stuff for half the price but I think quite another to sell the real deal to non framing entities. I would even be willing to accept it if Z Gallerie were a custom framing business, but they aren't. I think this is in direct competition with the very people who support them.

I am ready to get shot down for whining about the BB's. My big issue is our moulding company's going into the home decor business. How do we compete with that? I guess the business really is changing and these company's have found a niche to sell to. Nothing derogatory intended towards Roma or Neilsen either. I have quite a bit of space devoted to both of them in my store. Roma in particular is one of my favorite people to deal with, I just want to know how to compete with this new wrinkle.

[AWG]

There will be no whining about the BBs here. The whining (no, b******g) here is about smaller
non-framing boxes (and the vendors who support them) who give us the shaft.

Here's our story: There's a small, local very contemporary furniture chain here in NC. Lots of our newest good customers buy here. We thought we should check them out, maybe sell them some preframed art, do some advertising with them, maybe swap customer lists, that sort of thing. THEIR preframed art retails for way less than we can buy it, much less sell at a profit.

Then there are the vendors WE support (same as yours). When we started out with our previous venture we couldn't deal with them because we didn't have an investment in a storefront. Now that we have the store (lots of $$$), they'll sell to us, but also sell preframed art at prices I CAN'T GET. We support them, but their support is so-so at best.

I know that everyone has a right to make as much money as they can, however they can, but they need to remember that it is the independent "little guy" that helped make those vendors who they are today.

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

If you want to buy pre-framed samples for $50 and sell them for $70 that's fine. The store you mentioned does not sell custom framing. You can find the same sort of thing in resort town framed art stores. They produce 200 of the same piece in a factory like production setting and sell it at a low price. They bring into play several economies of scale. If someone asks why you sell the sample so cheap tell them it is a sample that has been shown for a while and periodicaly you reduce the price on samples to allow you to move them off and show new things. Or tell them that you got a deal and you are passing on the savings. Ask yourself if you want to be in the preframed art bussiness or in the custom framing bussiness.

[Emibub]

See Bob, that is exactly my point. I am a custom framer and people I buy my exclusive custom moulding from are selling the same examples of custom framing to home decor stores at ready made prices. I like to think I am offering something above ready mades. To buy these examples from the moulding company's as an example of how this custom moulding would look and then to find the same thing from the same company being offered in a different venue at ready made prices just doesn't sit well with me.

I am fully aware that the home furnishing stores sell premade stuff at reduced prices. I have made my peace with that, because I know it is ####. MaybE I am not making any sense, I seem to be a half a beat off lately anyway.

[Bob Carter]

Kathy-Call Roma and tell them you want to but 100 of the same item and then 10 different images in groups of 100 each (You don't have to actually buy them, just act like it).You may see a Z Gallerie price also. It's all about numbers.

But I have to disagree with the notion that it's the little guys that made the Roma's. Not exactly. The big players and big design houses always will have more sway.

The easy answer? Just build your biz as big as Z. They all started out small, also.

[Emibub]

Yes Bob, I know if I buy 100 I'll get a better price. The problem isn't that I want a better price. The problem, I thought anyway, is that they are selling the models that I thought were sold to us in the industry to people who aren't in the industry, who in turn are selling them as preframed art at a significantly reduced price. It just seems to me it cheapens what we are trying to sell, especially if you factor in charging custom prices. I guess I always looked at those models as at least appearing to be custom examples to encourage custom sales. I was always a little uncomfortable thinking customers might see the same samples at another frameshop. But now I am even more uncomfortable thinking they will see them at a home furnishing store at half the price.

I guess as far as saying the little guy has supported them I guess what I really meant was the framing industry has supported them. If they are selling the same stuff outside the framing industry at reduced prices I guess it doesn't sit well with me.

[ 07-28-2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]

[JPete]

Kathy, don't you think the examples as you call them could be being mass produced by another framer who only does sell to furniture stores etc.

Sure they can buy cheaper but everyone else may have the same thing.....change the mat in your sample....custom framing is just that, to fit the needs of the individual so it doesn't look like every other home in town.

Who do you think makes all of the frames for motels? That is another ball games at much different prices.

I did repair work on a piece from the furniture store they had for Sale at $350 which I would not have been able to do for 3x that. That piece was nice and ended up in the same office I got $1200 for just a frame. We do have to accept the fact that we are not the only gig in town and admire the work others do.

[ 07-28-2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: JPete ]

[Emibub]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JPete:
Kathy, don't you think the examples as you call them could be being mass produced by another framer who only does sell to furniture stores etc. [/QUOTE

No JPete they were not mass produced by another framer unless you consider Roma or Nielsen Bainbridge another framer. They were pieces found in Roma's 2002 supplement on the very first page listed as "Exclusive Custom Designed Wall Decor, and in Nielsen's "Merchandising Solutions & Frame Displays" which was included with my Neilsen Spring program. Both titles indicate to me that they are designed and sold to us, the framing industry, as models to show examples of their products.

I'm not quite sure where I am miscommunicating here. I was just a little concerned that our suppliers are apparently selling our custom materials to the home decor industry. We bitch and complain about the premade garbage that is being sold. I am bitching and complaining about the quality materials we(some of us anyway)are purchasing as selling tools to help push our suppliers product being sold to the home decor industry at considerably cheaper prices.

I'm not quite sure why I brought it up........but nobody here seems concerned about it, so, I will take it off my list of worries.

[Jason Maranto]

This is partially the reason I never bought premade samples... the other part being I didn't actually do the work.


Jason.

[Emibub]

Man, my last post sounded a bit snippy.........sorry, it has been a long day on the Out on a Whim Ranch........... :eek:

[Rick Granick]

I understand Bob's point about buying in quantity equals getting a better price. However, I do have to agree with Kathy's point about our suppliers in essence helping the mass retailers undercut our ability to differentiate ourselves as purveyors of custom designs. For example, Nurre caxton wants me to offer their mouldings so that I can show tasteful design and high quality above and beyond what the mass retailers show. Bainbridge (same company) wants me to buy their alphamat board and bevelaccents so that I can protect my customers' art and have a design element that is unique and not found at the run-of-the-mill outlets. I pay premium prices for all these products so that I can achieve these ends, and even merchandise the "exclusivity" of these premium brands. Then I walk into Stein-Mart and see a revolving rack full of Nielsen-Bainbridge branded ready-made frames, in Nurre Caxton styles (or virtually identical ones with only minor profile variations) complete with alpamats and bevel accents at price points like $16 to $22. If you take this tactic to its logical end, the only reason the customer will need to come to a "custom" shop is if they need a size that doesn't conform to a standard.
I know we have the ability to do a wide range of techniques and to be creative, and to set ourselves apart through exemplary service. That's obvious. The problem is that to some degree the more "bread-and-butter" jobs help subsidize our ability to exist and to be there to do the "upscale designer" jobs. Not everyone needs the elaborate work. It just pains me to see our own suppliers turning elements and identifiable logos that they encourage us to use to set ourselves apart, into COMMODITIES that people expect to buy for the lowest possible price.
Again, I know that these companies have a right to sell to volume merchants at lower prices, and that this is capitalism. It's just that under the prevailing economic trends we independents have a hard enough time doing what we need to do without our own suppliers making our jobs harder.

Can't they at least make up a different brand name?

:mad: Rick

[jframe]

I'm not quite sure where I am miscommunicating here. I was just a little concerned that our suppliers are apparently selling our custom materials to the home decor industry. You aren't miscommunicating, Kathy, nor are you being snippy. It is a maddening situation and there is nothing that can be done about it. As Bob said it is all about the numbers. Our suppliers are no different. Their best customers are those who buy the most, and it's not us.

You just have to make what you do very unique, personal and one of a kind. At some point some of the preframed art buyers are going to get tired of seeing their art on everyone elses walls and eventually in every dollar store. That's when they'll start looking for original art framed to suit them personally. There is a portion of the public that is already at that point. Concentrate on what you can do for them.

Stay out of those preframed art departments unless you are just there to see what NOT to do. ;)

[AWG]

Kathy I still think you are right.

Imagine if you HAD bought those samples to showcase that vendor (it is inexpensive, there's no labor involved, what's the harm?). Your customer comes in, like the design and orders something like it as a custom job. THEN they go to ZGallerie and see it for sale for about the same price you paid for your sample.

NOW who's overpriced, gouging, etc (whatever the customer feels). YOU. and that's the part that's unfair.

All respect to Bob Carter, but I think he'd admit the reality that there are VERY FEW frame shops around now (except Warren Tucker, of course) with the buying power to go out and buy at competitive prices.

This situation makes me angry. It sure has made me re-think the idea of buying some of these samples in the future.

Just remember: Don't let the b******* get you down!

[Less]

I don't like it either. I think it is like cutting off the hand that feeds you.

I have no problem if they sell to high volume framing operations that pump out pre-framed art, but when you get into the business of framing the art yourself to cut out the framer, well, that's just a conflict of interest and wrong in my book.

They are probably hoping that not too many framers will notice.

These crooks may take notice if framers started to boycott them. Replacing Nielsen, Roma, and LaMarche would be no big deal.

Don't worry Bob, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, and I'm sure that is just what these guys are counting on.

Maybe we should see how many Grumblers are willing to call these companies, complain, throw out their samples, and boycott them. Lets see if the 15 thousand little guys make much of a difference in their business.

If we really wanted to, we could cut them out. I had an Italian manufacturer offering to sell direct bypassing the distributors.

We’ll probably never get the trade magazines to talk about this issue because of the advertising money.


Bob is right about one thing, if any one of us really want to we all could set up our own wholesale business.

[ 07-28-2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[katman]

I understand what you are feeling, Kathy. Really hit me the other day when I walked into Home Depot and saw a couple of pallets of framed, beveled mirrors. Looked pretty nice and were priced so low I figured I should buy some to resell instead of making some up. But...I have a slightly different take on the models.

I buy them to show different (new) mouldings. I price them lower than it would costs to make as a custom frame. I tell the customer it is a display piece and that's why there is a big discount that's available for a limited time.

On models that don't move I'll eventually pull the art and put something different in the frame. Some of my models have museum glass and cost about the same as I would pay just for the moulding. So a new life for the package and glass is a viable option. Meanwhile, if it looks good and is serving me as a sales tool for showing a moulding or a certain type of presentation it is serving my purpose for purchasing it.

I agree that it is hard to walk into a store and see art framed in mouldings you sell priced lower than your cost. We will see more of this because some people just want something to hang on their wall to cover space. "Outlet" shopping malls, Big Boxes and the Internet are responding to these buyers. I'm looking for the customers who know their wall space is limited and want to display art and photography they appreciate.

Like you my retail framing business is relatively new. I measure success by repeat customers, referrals, making the rent and payroll every month and consistent growth. Not making much more than beer money now, but as long as things are moving in the right direction I don't let the big retailers bother me. I'm in a big, competitive market and my time is limited. I'd like to have more sales, but I want the big guys to draw the bargain hunters away so I can focus on the people who want nice work and don't need to convince themselves that they got the best deal in town.

Our suppliers need to stay in business, too. If I get good service, a good product and a fair price relative to my purchasing volume, the rest is up to me as a retailer.

[El Framo]

I also have to take issue with the big guys pimping their frame models out to the lowest bidder. I understand why they do it, because they're in it to make a buck any way they can. But what IS wrong is the notion that it is cutting the throats of us little guys.
Maybe it's time to band together and start forming cooperative buying groups in order to be able to negotiate a better price, and be able to push our own agendas.

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

First of all I would question Roma or N.B. Are they selling their samples to furniture stores? If they are selling to furniture stores you could voice your displeasure with their decision to sell to furniture stores.

A few years ago I discovered someone selling open edition prints from a major publisher at a flea market for two dollars each. These were prints that would retail in my shop for 20 to 50 dollars. It turns out that they were stolen from a truck terminal or printer. We talked to the publisher and helped them track down the problem. The publisher was grateful for our help.


Do a little detective work. Is there a sticker on the back of the frame that will identify the source? I believe that most major framing distributors outsource the manufacture of their samples. Perhaps the sample producer is selling direct to the furniture stores.

Here is another thought. Suppose you or I or another framer decide to go after some corporate business. We show XYZ furniture chain a few samples. XYZ’s buyer decides that the small black and white tulips in the big mat with the black metal frame is pretty nice. We have done our homework. We tell him we are interested in a minimum opening order for 80 pieces at $35 each.

[DTWDSM]

Here is my take on the situation, take it for what is worth....

The framed examples, framed models, or what ever you want to call them are the same things in every shop/retailer. You also do not have any control on the quality of the workmanship.

We are a CUSTOM framer. I do not use theses items because all of my competitors could have the same thing on their wall and then customers begin to wonder. Work a deal with your rep to get a chop or some length on a new moulding anf design your own "sample" or "model".

For those of you who do use these items, what if someone likes one of these models but wants a matching picture? Most of the models do not have a companion piece or any information about who the publisher of the print is.

People come into our shop because they want something that is different than what they can get in a big box or other retailer who has preframe. You can go to Target and buy a Jack Vettriano "Singing Butler" for 79.95 and have a person in line behind you with the same picture in their cart. You can come into my shop and get the same picture for that 79.95 or you can get it done the way you want it and not be the same as everyone else and pay over $200.

I use this print as an example because we are all familiar with it and it is in every big box across the country. It is one of our best sellers and I would estimate the average framing on that print in our store is 200-225.

One of the keys to keep up with and beat the big boxes is to offer the same items that they do but do them better. Who cares what they buy them for and who they buy from, focus on what you can do to do it better. Big boxes should not be your main competition, the people that you should worry about is the other smaller shops in your area. They are the ones buying at the same prices as you, from the same suppliers as you.

One of the best things that you could do is to offer art in your shop. Even if it is a small selection, you need to have the same prints that people are buying at the big boxes, the national top sellers, and then frame them in a different way. The same print looks a lot different and is not on the customer's neighbors wall when it comes from a custom framer.

[katman]

I think both Tim and Bob have made some excellent points. We have negotiated special pricing with our main supplier for projects that will involve multiple copies of the same frame/mat. In some cases we have been able to buy joined frames at base linear cost, cut the mats to fit different pieces of stock art, assemble and offer to corporate clients at a very aggressive price. Although this type of work is more production than custom, you can create a different look, it pays the bills and makes the suppliers happy when a small shop can occasionally move some volume. They remember.

[Bob Carter]

I think has a very good take on this problem. But, like him, we have a very wide based clientele. To maximize the affect of traffic, why not offer some items agressively priced to indicate you have some price sensitive items for that part of the clientele and dazzle the others with your very best efforts at a true custom price?

Trust your customers to know the difference and rely upon your sales skills to be able to explain to those that don't know.

The wider selection you offer the more likely that you will sell more things to more people. The narrower the selection and... well, you get it.

I'll bet a dozen Krispy Kremes that our $1m sports memorabilia guy has more items under $100 than he does over $1000. But if those $1000 items are spectacular, he'll sell them. But what about the guy that loves what he sells but only has $50 in his pocket? Let's offer somethings that will separate him from that $50, and if he's happy, he might just come back when he has more to spend

[Framing Goddess]

I have to agree with Tim and Jason...
I am not one bit interested in buying pre-framed models for the reasons they stated. As Kathy has pointed out, it is all too easy for that sample to become just another piece of mediocre framed art that is seen in discount stores all over the place.
I can imagine that many of you feel the same way that I do- that you are marketing a signature look- one that hopefully has an element or two that is unmistakeably unique. Buying preframed art does absolutely nothing to further that.
I like to haunt furniture stores and those home style type stores (like Pottery Barn, Pier One, etc.) and see what kind of aesthetic they are peddling. I do not model my look on theirs, but I like to be aware of what is "out there" and I see the framed models as a part of that- merely an indicators of trends.
I can't imagine giving up valuable wall space to someone else's aesthetic.


edie the ibuyallmyartonebay goddess

[Warren Tucker]

To me, this is an amazing thread. I've never heard of framed samples. We do a bit of business with Roma (the salesman for our territoty, Bob Havens, is a close friend, and we stock bainbridge matboard but we've never been shown framed samples. Years ago, we framed samples for the then Nielson but they were for trade shosw, not for other framers. I can't imagine buying them. We make our samples, even corner samples (because moulding from different runs varies quite a bit). Why would a custom frame fabricator buy a ready-made framed sample? Thank about it. He'd be as much as saying that a mass producer can frame a piece as well as he could (at least well enough to meet his standards) and for less. What does that say to a customer? If the corner samples I've seen from LaMarche and Roma are any indication of the quality of their framed samples, they wouldn't meet my standards.

I always look at framed art in furniture stores and I've never seen a piece we couldn't sell for less. And not only could we do the job for less, we'd do a better job. I'm not talking about the really cheap stuff with stamped mats.

We're not a huge operation in a big market and we're not particularly efficient; believe me, we could be a lot more efficient. We just always try to get the best job for our customers for a good price. We consider top quality workmanmship and service the norm, what all customers expect.

[JudyN]

Huh? Roma has all kinds of framed art at about $100.00 to $125.00 with expensive Roma frames...if you don't like the "art"..... take it out and put something else in! They are in "standard" sizes like 8x10 or 11x14 . Mark them up 2 1/2 to 3 x. These are priced well below what we can buy the mouding and pay our framer to build them. They are a great price point. They SELL that is why we get them. We also buy Roma photo frames and sell tons of them. If it sells why not get it in.... we are here to make money. smile.gif

[Art On Canvas]

I buy samples from my LJ salesman, but only to show support for him (maybe it makes him look good) and his company, not because I want the premade samples. Like Warren I feel that I would do a better job. They do show off the new mouldings, and they usually have museum glass and I'll make a small profit if they ever sell.

Kathy's suppliers should sell the premades to her at the same published prices that they sell to BB's. If that's not the case, then she has a right to be upset with them.

[katman]

Warren, glad to see you're still with us.It's good to see someone speak from a position of overwhelming confidence, even if the commentary is sometimes somewhat imprecise or questionably directed. You need to see some good models sometime. Maybe 16 x 20 or larger, with outer frame and fillets joined correctly (no filler, and no gaps), museum glass or, at a minmum conservation, priced at the cost of the moulding or less. I have no problem buying models on those terms to show a new moulding. Costs me nothing in labor, and it shows a moulding much more effectively than a corner sample.

Now, I appreciate from your comments the other day that you buy in bulk so you get your materials at much less cost than I do. And, I suspect rent and labor in Wilmington is considerably less than I have to pay. But unless I have people sitting on their behind staring out the window, I'd take free corner samples or part with $5 or $10 bucks for a set. It sure would cost me more to buy the materials and spend the time cutting and joining the profiles.

I do agree with you on the benefit of making your own framed samples. Like you, we do digital work and conventional photography so we can make some interesting images. But you ought to talk to some reps about models. You might save some money on the frames that you can spend when you take some well-deserved time off for a vacation.

[MiterMan]

Much of this wailing and gnashing of teeth could be avoided if we remebemr the moulding company's intent in creating those framed models.

1. To show off their moulding lines. A framed model is invaluable in showing a customer how a particular moulding looks as a whole frame.

2. To act as a sales tool. That's why they all have wide mats, fillets, big expensive mouldings and in many cases museum glass.

3. It makes it easier to get good framing up on the wall. Typically the price you pay is less than what you'd pay for the materials, then you have to find time to do it.

Just remember, these thing weren't meant to be sold as preframed art. They are selling tools, just like your mat and moulding samples.

Don't like the quality? Don't buy them. Most companies will give you a good deal on the moulding if it's for store display.

Don't like the artwork? Don't want to see the same thing everywhere else? Switch it out. You'll still come out ahead.

[Emibub]

Woo hoo! Woke up to this.........thanks for the insight everybody. I'm not sure everybody has gotten the message I was trying to convey, but I am glad some of you have noticed the problem.

Now, to answer some things.

I spoke to my Roma rep a couple weeks ago and expressed my disappointment. Haven't seen hide nor hair of my Neilsen rep so I haven't spoken to him. It just doesnt' seem like a big enough issue to call...........I'm not exactly one of their big spenders who they would miss if I threatened to ban their products.

As a rule I don't want to use these examples either. But, some of them do show off a particular line well. I wouldn't buy them if they were poorly made. When I first bought this <strike>albatross</strike>store I literally had to create all new samples. I couldn't possibly do them all and do them well so I did purchase 5 each from LJ and Roma, because I thought they were well done, and considering the price I didn't have to do the work. Obviously I want to show off my abilities, but as Judy said we are here to make money. I have no qualms hanging up one of these samples for sale. I do not equate them with the cheesy stuff you see at the BB's.

I am pretty comfortable that these are the same premades from Roma and Neilsen. I really don't think somebody sold them off the back of a lorry to Z Gallerie.

Really, my issue goes deeper than getting a better price. I understand a higher volume purchase will get me a better price. I don't mind I paid a higher price(thanks for the thought Don). My big concern still is they are taking their product that they have made available to us in the industry and selling it as a ready made commodity to somebody outside of the industry. I think it cheapens what we are trying to convey. I can only assume that Roma and Neilsen both have built their empires off of the picture framing industry. To sell off the very examples they provide to us to promote their materials is just wrong. In fact The more I think about it the more wrong it becomes.

What I have learned is to quit making sentimental decisions. Less is right to a certain degree(did I really say that?), if you don't like what they do it is easy enough to replace them. I am not ready to do that. As I said earlier I love both Roma and Neilsen. I guess I am just a bit disappointed to see these company's aren't loyal to our industry.

I am not quite sure why it surprises me that big corporations only care about that almighty dollar. Along with buying my store(Pssst. lady over here, yeah you, wanna buy a store?)apparently I have developed a certain naivete due to my unsure footing. Now is not the time to believe in loyalty. Time to toughen up and act accordingly, if I want to still be around to be one of the big guys.

[ 07-29-2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]

[AWG]

Now that this thread has really blown up I'm wondering about these models. I'm getting converted to the "no pre-made models" side. I still don't think it's right for the manufacturers to sell to our competition.

Are these models any good? The pictures in the catalog look nice, but what about quality/workmanship? The last thing I want is for one of my customers to find them over at Ms, ZGallerie or any other place.

I know that if I call my Nurre rep and let him know I'm doing up a big sample I can get the moulding at a significant discount. Roma I believe does the same thing. We do this when making up a new sample. I'd rather save my time and get something "pre-made custom" (how's that term?) but if Q/W is not to my standard then forget it.

[Emibub]

This subject leads to another interesting thought too. Roma wins a lawsuit to help stop knock offs. I believe in supporting their business. I want to sell the real thing. But they are selling their real thing to somebody who in turn is selling it at the price of a cheap knock off. Hello?????

How the heck do I compete with that?

[Ron Eggers]

I have several each of the L-J and the Nielsen wall models.

The early L-J samples were pretty bland, but they keep getting better and better. I have stopped buying them, though, because it is difficult to come up with a good answer to the question, "Wow, did YOU frame that?"

The Nielsen samples are less spectacular, though they are decent and show non-traditional matting styles, Bevel Accents and some of the new mouldings. They are quite inexpensive.

I have sold some of each after they've hung for a while.

BTW, I don't have a lot of space to show models (too many corners) and some of them are hanging quite high on the wall. I finally got a little laser pointer and keep it in my pocket to I can refer to a particular example during a design session without saying, "Kinda like the fifth one from the left on the top row of the west wall."

I also make up POS templates so that, if someone comes in and says, "I want it framed JUST LIKE THAT ONE," I can punch in the image size and the stock number of the model and do a nearly instant price quote.

[katman]

Emibub--no answer to your question, but here's how I've approached that one. We do photo processing in addition to framing. I charge more than the supermarket in my strip center, and substantially more than the Sam's Club down the street.

Once in a while someone will ask why I charge more. I tell them we don't sell dog food and the skin tones in our prints aren't green. Drives me nuts that Sam's uses the same paper and chemistry as we use, but Sam's price is not much more than my cost.

I have a growing list of customers who decided they would rather pay us the difference. Still bothers me, though.

[JPete]

I've never purchased the premade samples from NB mainly because of their first info they sent out on how we would make more money selling bigger mats. They were going to make a lot more but if everyone used their theory I don't think we would have been better off. I did have the deep mat sample they sent sitting out and one of my best customers was in today and really liked it. I gave it to her, she was thrilled and will go home and be back and buy an expensive frame.

Kathy, I didn't mean to imply one shouldn't be a little upset but life gets easier when we get passed that. You'll get there.

We have purchased LJ custom samples and one of them did sell the moulding for us and we managed to get them sold. In the beginning they said they would buy back if we didn't make a sale with a certain time period.

I don't think this has blown up, it's just become a good thread to release some frustration and find out how others feel.

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

Kathy,

Did the Roma rep say that they are selling their samples to ZGallery?

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

Katman,

Look around all kinds of bussinesses use loss leaders to draw customers in and drive smaller competitors crazy. You could do it too. Run a limited time sale at a penny above cost to show Sam's customers what good photo finishing looks like.

[Rick Granick]

Quoted by Kathy:
My big concern still is they are taking their product that they have made available to us in the industry and selling it as a ready made commodity to somebody outside of the industry. I think it cheapens what we are trying to convey.
--and--
This subject leads to another interesting thought too. Roma wins a lawsuit to help stop knock offs. I believe in supporting their business. I want to sell the real thing. But they are selling their real thing to somebody who in turn is selling it at the price of a cheap knock off. Hello?????
How the heck do I compete with that? I think this is the crux of the issue. It is custom versus COMMODITY. Our suppliers take the same elements for which we pay dearly to set ourselves apart as custom, and provide a way for the mass retailers to turn them into commodities. I'm not talking about the framed models. If my customer walks into Stein-Mart and can buy a Nielsen-Bainbridge branded Nurre-Caxton ready-made with glass, Alphamat and BEVEL ACCENT for the same price at which I have to retail just the BevelAccents , then next time she has a picture framed she will want a full explanation of why we are so "expensive".
Our suppliers aren't breaking any laws (including the laws of economics), but they sure make it an uphill battle for us independents.

:mad: Rick

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by AWG:
This situation makes me angry. It sure has made me re-think the idea of buying some of these samples in the future.

This is the very reason I never bought those things. If you really like their design example steal it. Use their moulding and mat combo and put a DIFFERENT picture in it.

Less is right, it is like biting the hand that feeds you.

Jerry

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by El Framo:

Maybe it's time to band together and start forming cooperative buying groups in order to be able to negotiate a better price, and be able to push our own agendas. OR... we could just tell them what they can do with their "samples"!

Jerry

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by lessafinger:
I had an Italian manufacturer offering to sell direct bypassing the distributors.

You could send me the contact info for these people. I buy direct often and would LOVE to get hooked up with some Italians.

I would be forever in your debt.

Jerry

[Less]

My big concern still is they are taking their product that they have made available to us in the industry and selling it as a ready-made commodity to somebody outside of the industry. I think it cheapens what we are trying to convey. I can only assume that Roma and Neilsen both have built their empires off of the picture framing industry. To sell off the very examples they provide to us to promote their materials is just wrong. That’s funny, because that is not the issue that bothers me. I could care Less about those their Demo pieces. I don’t buy them, because I specialize in fine original art. I would be more inclined to make my own; something unique. But, if I did purchase them, I would be an unhappy CUSTOMER. They SOLD them to me as tool to help THEM sell more of THEIR moulding in MY shop. This is in part an agreement to make more of an effort on the behalf of a company that I don’t have to do business with. These companies practically beg us to promote them and take the competition of the wall. We are agents for these companies – a partnership – a commitment, and a level of ethical conduct. THEY SHOULD NOT BE FRAMING PERIOD! And they should not be hiding under the veil of another name.

This is a small world, and if they are not careful, they could be in the pre-framed art business all by themselves, and they won’t win at that game.

I have no problem selling Clarke Metals and Crescent instead of Nielsen I have no problem dumping LaMarche or Roma for Max, AMPF, and many others that that are now buying from many of the same manufacturers. We’ll, I guess we know where our Roma reps have been. Isn’t Tru Vue in the framing business? We’ll, Lots of others sell glass too.

So, who’s framing and who’s not? ? ?

Lets send a message. I am willing to toss my Nielsen’s, my Roma’s and my LaMarche (pre-framed mirrors).

The Grumble would be a great place to start. If their competition were smart they would use this a marketing edge. We support those that support us

Jerry, I'll see if I can dig up their name. I would guess these big guys push their weight around the some of these family operations, and they don't like the BS.

Bob's right, not enough framers are aware enough or willing to do anything about it.

Lets see if John Taft or Anne Vazquez are willing to write about it? If they loose framers they loose subscribers.

[ 07-29-2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[Less]

Hey, maybe these guys are positioning themselves for the demise of the independents to the BBs, who will cut them out anyway. They'll need some way to sell their moulding.

Hey, maybe it's not the independents who have the most to loose by the BBs?

Not only will the distributors loose half of the framers, but when times get tough, the framers tend to push the Less expensive moulding. A lot of companies are probably pretty heavy with big moulding inventory. If they can get these demos into the mass market it may help them sell their inventory, and burn their bridges along the way.

[ 07-29-2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[Emibub]

Less, :eek: :eek: Calm down. Don't start tossing samples based on my findings. I do agree with your possible theory that they are passing us by for the BB's. I imagine it is more desirable to sell a lot to a BB for less, than to sell a little to us small guys for more. Hope that makes sense, it is late.

Bob Shirk, Yes my rep did acknowledge that she knew this stuff was at Z Gallerie. In fact, I seem to remember thinking to myself it put the reps in an awkward position. They aren't the ones making these decisions. She tried to put a positive spin on it. Once again, I want to reiterate I have always loved Roma and my rep is my personal favorite rep. They have a good product that I want to continue to sell. Of course the reason I sell Roma is because i am trying to offer stuff that isn't available "just anywhere".

[Jason Maranto]

For those who are looking for a viable alternative in high end hand finished looks from a company who isn't in the mass market biz -- check out http://www.europeanartframecompany.com

I'm sure they'd be happy to have your business and there's the added bonus of having truly unusual moulding in the mix which the customers definately haven't seen at a BB or funiture store... high quality company all around.


Jason.

[Emibub]

I spoke with my Roma rep today. As Amy explains it to me Z Gallerie falls into the category of being a framing business because they manufacture their own premades. This is news to me. She did verify that they do supply Z Gallerie and other home furnishing stores with premade items. From their point of view they are getting a better product out there so the consumer will be exposed to the nicer stuff. I told her I really don't have a problem with them selling premade stuff, I just wanted the preice to be in line with the materials.

She also told me that from their point of view these premade items they make should be considered like any other retail item and marked up accordingly. I have been approaching them as custom. Not necessarily because I wanted more money for them if they sold but because I fear a custom customer would question the price difference. I have to decide if I want to use examples that can be bought anywhere. Honestly if I was set up properly I would gladly consider adding that type of premade item. They are well made and they do price them for less than what you would pay for buying the materials.

I really am not looking for a call to arms, like Less apparently is. I just want to know what the rules are so I can adjust my gameplan. If the industry or landscape is changing I need to know so I can change with it. Everybody is spooking me with their talk of independents going the way of the dinosaur. I don't blame any corporation for adjusting with the market and going where the bigger need is. I just want the facts so I can do the same.

I do feel a little bad I didn't call my rep before I posted this out here. She really is a good rep to have and Roma is lucky to have her. It isn't because I didn't get a good enough answer from her that I posted the thread. I was just looking to see if others had noticed. When I initially spoke with her I wasn't as annoyed as I was after this weekend visiting one more Z Gallerie and discovering the Neilsen samples there along with the Roma.

If I see any Roma show up at Discount Dan's Bargain furniture Emporium or TJ Maxx closeout bins then my biggest worries will have come true.

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by lessafinger:
Hey, maybe these guys are positioning themselves for the demise of the independents to the BBs, who will cut them out anyway. They'll need some way to sell their moulding.

It looks like the Big "M" has already cut out the Big "LJ". They probably found the source of this imported stuff and started buying direct. They have their own brand name put on it. Smart.

What will happen when the BigBox stores stop buying, and all the "little" guys? There will be all new major contenders.

If any of you use the smaller cheap profiles of metal, try OEM, NDN, and Decor. Sell it for 50 cents less per foot and brag to your clients that you are saving them $s with equal quality!

Jerry

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by Emibub:


If I see any Roma show up at Discount Dan's Bargain furniture Emporium or TJ Maxx closeout bins then my biggest worries will have come true. You may want to keep an eye out at Walmart and Sam's. It is just a matter of time.

The real moral to the story is, don't buy their pre-made samples! Make your own.

Jerry

[GRYPHON 1]

A little back ground on Z gallerie: The owners of Z gallerie started out custom framing in their garage. Untill a few years ago they did do custom framing. But as the premade business and furniture side of their business grew the single item custom framing portion faded away. I visit Z Galleries main office on a regular basis and I have seen one of the largest custom framing operations I have ever seen. (Yes custom framing.) They start by choosing art work then designing the matting and framing. It then goes in to production in the framing department. The only difference from the way most framers do it is that they frame many instead of just one. There is nothing stopping any framer from doing exactly what they have done wich is grow from a garage to a chain of over 50 stores. These people have a great attitude and don't think of themselves as a big box. Maybe this is why they are so succesful?

[Emibub]

No problem there, I love Z Gallerie. Honestly, in the many years I have shopped there I have never seen or been aware of a custom framing department. I know they have always had an extensive selection of nicer preframed art. I have nothing against them.

My whole issue was seeing something I use as a selling tool being sold as a premade in what I considered to be a non framing entity. It isn't just Z Gallerie where this stuff is being sold. But for the time being I am okay with that. I just needed to readjust my thinking. Just don't want what I consider to be an exclusive high end product to be cheapened.