Hobby Lobby Pricing??

[Walt C]

In my continuing marketing research effort, I have sent my adult children around to the local competition for price comparisons. For the most part, my pricing is somewhere in the mid range with the exception of Hobby Lobby.

As a comparison I used a 15 1/2 X 13 print, Studio Moulding #386-123 ($3.62 per ft lineal cost) 2 Crescent Rag mats w/ 3"/1/4" reveal, Cons. Clear Glass, assembly/mounting fee. My retail price was $257.00.

As I said, other frame shops in the area were either a little above or below mine.

Hobby Lobby gave the following breakdown:

Frame, 08-812 F4 (unknown MFR) 99.00
2 Crescent Rag Mats (#'s C1583, 1631) 25.00
UV Clear Glass 10.50
Mounting fee 1.50

Total $136.00

Now I'm not about to adjust my price based on what others charge, but does it seem to me that this quote is a little low even for a BB? Granted there can be a vast difference in the frame cost, but I'm suspicious of the mounting fee. They indicate using "Acid Free Foamcore". I'm not sure that $1.50 would even cover my material cost for mounting. Particularly conservation, mounting.

And my daughter said they told her that if she waited until next month, they would be having a 50% off sale.

Whaddya think??? Salesperson missed a labor charge maybe???
:confused:

[DTWDSM]

Don't know about your Hobby lobby but here at that cost the mounting is a piece of cardboard on the back. They do not use foamboard unless it is asked for or the piece is a limited edition. As for Acid Free foamboard I realy doubt it.

Also our Hobby Lobby only shows paper mats unless you ask for the rag mats and when you do ask they look at you wondering why you know what they are called.

There is a slim chance that they might have been on to you. If the person knows too much about what to ask for they tend to be suspicious. Send someone else in and don't tell them what to be asking for and see what they get for a price.

Hiobby Lobby tends to be higher like M's unless they are using a ready made frame which they do try to use if possible.

[Walt C]

That's good to know. I think I'll send in my son when he gets back out of the Air Force this week. He hasn't been around for a while.

Thanks!!

[Walt C]

Now that I think about it, maybe I'll take it back to them and have them frame it during the 50% off sale. I don't think I can frame it myself for that price ($68.00).

[GRYPHON 1]

They purchase a lot of their mouldings directly from a factory in China. This may have something to do with the low price.

[dns ynko]

if they are good have them do all your work while you sit back and have a cocktail!

i know it is to good to be true.
drennis

[John Richards]

This issue has been comming up in our area for awhile. I went to a customer and asked them to put through a job quote for a comparison to both Michael's and JoAnn's.

The piece was 16.5 x 21.25, Conservation Clear glass, double Crescent Rag mat. Artcare Foam.
Frame: simple 2" silver wood.

Price:
Customer - $304.33
JoAnn - $147.68
Michael's - $160.51

Both JoAnn's and Michael's were discounting the frame 50%. If my customer did this the price would have been $214.33.

I shared this information with my customer, needless to say he was stunned.

Read William Parker's article in Decor. That 25-30% market share going to the boxes is going to grow. Just last week I talked to two people, one a Michael's Framing Manager another a Joann's Framing Manager. They are both busy and each took in over 400 framing jobs for the month of June. One is a personal friend so I don't think he was pulling my chain.

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by John Richards:
Read William Parker's article in Decor. That 25-30% market share going to the boxes is going to grow. And it's going to keep growing because they make themselves "accessable" to the customer.

Yeah, there's the "price" thing, and while that might bring in the customer initally, I really think the reason their business is booming is that they are making framing available to the "regular" person. People are not intimidated by a craft store. Sometimes they are intimidated by a "gallery". They think, "Gee, I don't know anything about having something framed or what it costs. What if I say something stupid? I don't have a clue of even what to expect as to price. What if it costs really "lots" and then I'd be embarrassed."

I mean, who can be intimidated by a business whose name is "Hobby Lobby"?

Personal example - I need some really nicer clothes, but I hate to shop, and I don't know anything about material or clothes, or even sizing, and I am intimidated to go to a nice clothing store. So what do I do? I go to Sears (just a step up from Wal-Mart) because I can just look until I see something I like. I would be more than happy to pay more for something nicer, if only I was made to feel comfortable in the store rather than "sized up" for my ability to pay when I went in. (I guess I normally "look like" I couldn't afford to be there :rolleyes: )

I think (my opinion) that we should let the "craft framers" do their job of acquainting the customer with framing. Let them "open the door". Then we need to SELL the customer on why it is important to go to a professional. Why it is important to buy a better product, and that it really is true that you get what you pay for.

And if we can't do that, if we can't answer that question, if we can't take the customer "to the next level", then we either need to start taking marketing and customer service classes or close the doors while it's still our choice to do so.

Betty

[Less]

John, I'm one of your customers. You should ask a few more before making a blanket assumption.

For a 15$ per ft 2" silver mldg. (and I could locate a cheaper one), I came up with a price of:

$204
50% off of the Frame
$142

Geez, and if I gave what the perceived 50% off the whole job, well, you can do the math.

[ 07-23-2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[JPete]

John, How, did the other charges compare, or were they discounting the whole job? Were the frames similiar or apples for apples.

I have a relative in the cities who had a relative who had a job done at one of the BB's and they were not happy with the way the fillet matched the frame, mainly because they didn't and the BB immediately removed the materials and returned the print. I was asked to give them a quote which I did and my price was the same as the BB's discounted price. This was a high end job so maybe that makes a difference.

The reason the fillet and frame didn't match was they were from two different companies mouldings. I had the orignal sales ticket so I know what I was comparing. I do not like to do work for what I call third parties so I did not pursue that particular job from 300 miles away.

I would think some of your customers might actually order something and have the work done and then take it apart for a real comparison.
Not that it would make a difference to the general public but it might to his/her customers.

[Warren Tucker]

I don't know if the 16 1/2 x 21 1/4 was image size or rabbit size. If it's the rabbit size, our price would be $124. If the image size: $149.29, and we'd do it in a couple of hours if asked. We've been in business for over 25 years and we're good at framing.

[John Richards]

Less: I had one customer help at the request of two others that were near Michael's.

Sight size: 10x14.75 Frame size: 16.5x21.25

Mouldings were similar since none of the three carry the same mouldings. TC 15837 was quoted by my customer through his Specialty Soft POS.

I'll try to break it down. Notice how some charges appear with some and not others.

Michael's
Mats = $22.30 ea
Frame = $159.00 / $79.50
Glass = $14.31
Mount = $11.60

JoAnn
Mats = $18.00 ea
Frame = $144.83 / $72.42
Glass = $19.00
Finish = $11.25

Customer
Mats = $25.19 ea
Frame = $180.05
Glass = $16.41
Mount = $14.74
Fit = $22.84

I think that's it. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. All three are in the St. Paul area, all three are successful, all three are busy. I was trying to help out two other customers who's business had been declining and were trying to determine if their proximity to the BB's and pricing was just adding fuel to the recession fire.

[Jim Miller]

It's easy to speculate about anyone's pricing -- especially the BigBox stores. Maybe they bought a boatload of the moulding. Maybe their employee made a $100. mistake. Maybe the finished frame would fall apart in a week. Or maybe it's all for real.

What does it matter? We can't change it, and it would be suicidal for us to try to match their prices.

I make no apologies for my prices, because our shop can do things others can't do, and our work is of the highest quality. We offer more value, but usually not less price.

When the client perceives that our price is justified, we get the job. When it isn't, we don't. Fortunately, we have found our place in the retail jungle.

[gemsmom]

It looks to me like these places only figure their pricing based on cost of goods, and they don't figure in the cost of labor and overhead. Where is Hobby Lobby's fitting charge? They are leaving alot of money on the table doing things the way they do. I wonder if the people resposible for pricing the framing in these places have actually worked in the framing field, or if they are just retailers used to keystone, or less, markup? Just a thought.

[Ron Eggers]

How many of you have BEEN inside a Hobby Lobby?

The framing department - indeed, the entire art-supply department - is a small percentage of the footage. Home accessories, dried flowers, porcelain knicky-knacks, etc. make up a big chunk of the footage and, presumably, a big chunk of the sales.

Maybe framing is their loss-leader.

For the record, I go to Hobby Lobby for brushes, paints and other art supplies and I don't mean to minimize their selection. But it's not a frame shop and it's not an art-supply store.

Maybe Michaels is the same way. I've yet to visit one, though it's on my to-do list.

[Bob Carter]

What a pleasant surprise to see such a talented framer use a little analysis in comparing prices like Pam has.

When she states things like it looks like they are "leaving money on the table", it does this old retailer's heart good.

When you look at the things they do in non-framing judgemental point of view, you get some insight into not only what they do, but how that applies to your own business.

One thing I have always admired about Pam is her willingness to learn. And now she is applying her learnings without compromising her craft.

But, Ron, don't think for one minute that Framing is a "Loss Leader". I wish that stupid term was banished from our language. Bet your bottom dollar that everyone of these stores do Engineered P/L's where every single running foot of tandem has a known return determined. And if a line doesn't provide a specific return, it is eliminated and replaced with something that will.

The reason they can make money at those prices is because they buy so much better than you. Did you ever wonder how a distributor can make money of the stuff they sell you that you mark up 5x or 6x? Now imagine how much more these BB's buy from the manufacturers than the local distributors.

Trust me, they aren't losing money on their framing operations to get you in to buy a $2.99 brush

[ 07-24-2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Bob Carter ]

[Warren Tucker]

Lobby Hobby or whatever may buy in larger quantities than a small frame shop but I don't think an individual store does so there is an additional distribution cost. As i mentioned in an earlier post, we'd frame that job for $129 and that's not with half off for the frame; that's our everyday price. And I can assure you we'll make money on the job. Ours will also be a top quality job. We knew long ago we'd have to compete with BB frame shops and so far we've dominated the two that have opened in our town.

[Bob Carter]

Warren-if you took a sampling of your market (certainly the majority)I would bet that at $129, you are about half price of your competition on the frame. Your economies of scale may allow you to be that much less or the additional volumes you attain by dominating your competition may also provide that advantage.

One big difference between your pricing and Michael's is they promote that advantage to drive clients to them. It really is a philosophical difference.

I think many framers do tend to price themselves out of the market. It's a vicious cycle. They do less, so they charge more because they pay more, etc...

There is absolutely a definable and quantifiable link between price and volume. Micheal's et al have it figured out, while most of our brethren wouldn't touch that concept with a 10ft stick of moulding.

Every single big guy I know uses the buying advantages to create more sales to create more buying advantages to creat more sales to create...well, you get the idea.

The fact that you are holding your own against the BB's says you are doing something right.

But, it ain't for everyone

[Ron Eggers]

Bob, does this mean that for a large, successful operation, there is no such thing as a "loss-leader?" Or, does it just mean that framing can't be it?

That's a serious question. I know that, for a little peanut like me, there can't be any part of my operation that loses money just to lure people in. My sales are nearly 100% custom framing. I like to eat every day.

The only Hobby Lobby I've visited (though I have no reason to think that there's a lot of difference between them,) has the framing department at the opposite end of the building from the entrance and register. To get there, you have to wander through miles of knicky-knacks (which are certainly someones else's treasures.)

[Bob Carter]

Ron-That is a good question. As part of a successful promotional strategy, they might offer an item or two at exceptionally sharp pricing to attract clients for a limited time. The hope is to get the people to buy regular or high margin items along with the promoted item.

A perfect example is the 59 cent Taco hoping that no one will buy the Tacos only, but buy a $1.39 soda or an order of Nachos. It's all designed to encourage add-on sales or repeat business.

But, to set an entire department up to do that when the same effect could be done by using key items isn't practical. The truth is the framing departments generally carry a significantly higher margin than most of the commodity products carried in these type stores

[Warren Tucker]

FWIW, here's how we beat Hobby Lobby prices: Generally we ignore all William Parker's advice (he, after all ran one business into the ground). We invest heavily in equipment and *inventory*; we don't do promotions, we don't advertise except in the Yellow Pages (just about all our customers know each other), we don't scout out our competition (we don't care what they're doing; we're concerned about what we're doing).

We have a big moulding inventory: there are three prices for moulding: the wholesale list price, the chop price (about 70% higher than list), and the price we pay for moulding (between 25 and 30% below list). For $1.00 /ft. moulding a chop framer pays 1.70, we pay .70. Guess who has a competitive advantage? We buy mat board 1,000 sheets at a time at a big discount. We buy 2,000 lb cases of glass for .32 a sq. ft. When a customer leaves a piece for us to frame, we ask, "when do you want it?" and we do it when they want it. We also carry the finished job to the customer's car, always. We don't say good by at the cash register. This has been our business strategy from day one 25 years ago. Also we pay our employees enough so they stay with us. Most have been with us for more than 10 years. You walk into one of our two shops and you see the same people year after year. Our main mat cutter has been with us 23 years and she's very good at it. We simply won't sell anything that's not a good deal for us and a good deal for our customer. No one walks out of our store and wonders if he could have gotten the job for less.Strangely, we didn't need to go to business school to develope this stratagy (my degrees are from colleges of Arts and Sciences).

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by Warren Tucker:
FWIW, here's how we beat Hobby Lobby prices: Generally we ignore all William Parker's advice (he, after all ran one business into the ground). That is absolutely uncalled for. I don't care how you run your business. I truly hope you are successful. Your web site is very nice, your prices are very generous and you all do seem to be very experienced.

BUT to blatenly put someone down is totally unnecessary. Your whole post would have been very informative without that.

Now, well, how could you ever hope to garner any respect after that. You probably could have had a great deal to teach the rest of us. Not now.

Who has to build themselves up by putting someone else down?

Betty

[ 07-25-2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: B. Newman ]

[Bob Carter]

Hi Warren-I'm going with Betty on this one. A ittle history on William-He hardly ran a company into the ground. His company hit hard times due primarily to a horrible economy and some major non-payments from some major accounts. I doubt if anyone could've survived what he went through (I know we couldn't have), yet he did and he is here to tell us about it stronger than ever.

And, in addition, he is giving back to the industry at a rate that would paralyze most of us.

I mentioned that if you were dominating the BB's you obviously were doing something right. The truth is you might be the biggest blow hard on the forum (thanks for knocking me down to No. 2).

To ignore any advice is simply stupid. William is a gifted knowledgeable entrepreneur. But not every philosophy is good for everyone.

So, tell us ther name of your shop and your annual volume so we might be able to independently confirm your position as a BB dominator.

Perhaps the same spotlight that William has allowed hemself to be shone in will yield as favorable a light as his.

How about it?

[Dermot]

52,000 lbs usage of glass a year…………..I would guess that Warren has a very sound operation……..that’s a lot of framing.

Shops are located as below web address www.fwfo.net (http://www.fwfo.net)
The Frame Works
1305 Floral Parkway
Wilmington, NC
(910) 392-3363

The Frame Outlet
1038 S. Kerr Avenue
Wilmington, NC
(910) 395-2953

Welcome to The Grumble Warren

Regs

Dermot
Ashford, Co. Wicklow, Ieland

[ 07-25-2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Dermot ]

[Emibub]

Yeah, I'm trying to stay out of the Grumble Rumbles here but that was a below the belt shot for sure. As a new business person reading William Parker's writing's on his situation did me good. It would have been very easy not to share his plight. Only somebody who is comfortable with his business and position within this industry would have shared what happened to him. We can all learn from it. It did my heart good seeing someone so revered who was willing to share.

I hope when I get my little enterprise on the map and on to the next level, and the next level after that, I won't be arrogant enough to forget the mistakes I made along the way.

[Jim Miller]

Mr. Tucker, I hope you've noticed that your commentary has stirred the ire of some here. You may be a wizard in business, but you're certainly no diplomat. It's not nice to insult the friends of those you're addressing.

Are you a custom picture framer? Your description of your inventory and business model is more like that of a distributor. Distribution is capital-intensive, and might fit your claims. But custom framing is labor-intensive -- altogether different.

If your business is custom framing, your success is admirable, and extremely unusual. Maybe impossible. If you really carry a big inventory, and retail moulding at 2.43x markup & "wholesale" it at 1.44x markup, and pay your employees better than average wages, and make a profit, then your business is not like most on this planet.

I can hardly wait to hear the rest of your story.

[Ron Eggers]

It's really too bad ya'll don't want me to delete threads.

This one went down the toilet as far as I'm concerned.

Now I remember why I decided about ten years ago that I didn't really like framers any more. Maybe I ran into Mr. Warren Tucker, or someone like him.

This is shameful.

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

These type of things have a way of "policing themselves".

I don't think anything should be zapped.

Mike

[Framerguy]

This one is too tough to stay out of.

I am amazed that this self proclaimed businessman has come onto this forum, put down other framer's ideas based simply on his being "in business for 25 years", and now has the audacity to condemn the president of the Professional Picture Framers Association for coming forth and trying to help others in the industry with an honest straightforward account of the trials and errors of his business during this economic unrest.

Very modest of you Mr. Tucker. And I suppose you will skip all the "unnecessary" steps in the mounting, matting, and framing procedures if you deem them a waste of time and loss of more profit. Tell me that you don't have a framer that calls himself "Framenfreak" working for you too!!

Your markup figures that were posted earlier don't even merit a reply but I would hope that there is an impending apology in the next post from you for Mr. Parker and also for those new to this trade who are taking your advice on buying $55 saw blades to heart and wasting their hard earned money on more junk.

(I also wish you good luck on the operation.)

Framerguy

[Ron Eggers]

I thought I was done. I'm never really done.

I'm trying to imagine how this could happen in a discussion between adults.

Perhaps Mr. Tucker doesn't realize that William Parker is held in high regard by most of us here, and that there are quite a few of us who consider him a personal friend, as well as a friend of the industry.

And perhaps Mr. Tucker doesn't realize that William is an occasional visitor to this forum and he was thinking that a little back-stabbing might go unnoticed.

Or maybe Mr. Tucker has a personal grievance with the PPFA and William is just a large (sorry, William) and convenient target.

It takes some time and effort to establish credibility here. William's credibility was well-establish long before he ever came to The Grumble. Mr. Tucker's credibility is going to be a very tough uphill battle.

[Emibub]

Yeah, this one really sticks in your craw. I wonder if Hannah has any limericks on her bathroom wall about Mr. Tucker?

[Less]

Constructive criticism would have been better than responding with the same behavior that you despise. A little thought on behalf of both parties would make for a healthier world.

I say things I regret and so has everyone else. You wonder why a new Grumbler persists with personal attacks. I would guess it may have to do with you're attack-dog nature when a new guy makes a mistake. He is certainly entitled to his opinion; he just needs to works on his etiquette.

I think Betty's first two paragraphs summed it up pretty well.

Edited at Less' request. I'm happy to do that for my pal. :D

[ 07-27-2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]

[BUDDY]

FRAMERGUY WHEN YOU SAID ;"Tell me that you don't have a framer that calls himself "Framenfreak" working for you too!!"

All i could think of was the stong similarities Mr. warren Tucker has with our old friend A.J. Hohen from Raceland, Louisiana.If i didn't know better i sware AJ took a page from your book and moved fom Louisiana and now resides in Wilmington ,N.C.
They both had the same buying practices and were equally as complimentary. They should get along just fine.In fact has anyone checked the ISPs it's uncanny.
BUDDY

[CharlesL]

Just when I was glad, and proud of so many NC Grumblers...Impressive shop, though.

[Ron Eggers]

Ah, Buddy?

I think you should know that your old friend A.J. is still here, with a different name and it's not Warren Tucker.

He's been behaving, so, if you haven't figured it out, there's no reason for me to tell you who it is.

[Less]

No **** Ron? I confess to be no saint, and I have not been here too long, but all of these characters, BBF, FraminFreak, WT, ahhh? Green this and Green that, all remind Less of the Super-Home-Based Framer AJ. **** , He's still here and behaving himself? WOW. Funny thing this Grumble? Huh? A liitle study on humanity.

Maybe they remind Less a little touch much of me?

Just watched the movie Gangs of New York. Talk about just yesterday. I guess things haven’t changed a great deal.

[ 07-26-2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[North Framer]

Warren, please do not go away, aside from your inappropriate first line, you brought to the discussion very valid points that require airing on this forum in regards to the future of profitability in bigger markets. Please apologize, and lets (all) keep this discussion of business pricing and sustainable competitive advantage(s) going.

[lyoncat]

I, for one, do not want this deleted. I need time to read it and I do think there are some important points here. Just because I am BUSY, I want the same priv{}lage( could not find my thesaurus) as the ones whom have had time to read. Just my opinion!!!

[ 07-26-2003, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: lyoncat ]

[gunzlinger]

This topic really has me puzzled. I am relatively new to framing and when I first started I priced Hobby Lobby and priced accordingly. All of my mat prices are the same as their mat prices ($.34 per UI for Rag, $.23 for paper, $.75 for leather or suede (and they never hold a sale on their mats or glass)). I have also found out that when they hold their sale it is usually 50% off on moulding (their sale price is approx the same as my normal retail price and I have a 3.5 mark on my moulding). I never charge an assembly fee (its a one man show). It depends on the size of the print but I usually double to triple my money on every frame job.

Everything is framed professionally and yet I get the distinct impression that I should be charging more. Should I? Again, I am new to this industry so please be gentle with any response.

Thanks
Devin

Oh yea, I have a couple of disadvantages. 1) It's my own shop with no employees. 2) I am located in a crappy part of town. 3) Hobbly Lobby is located 3 minutes from where I am located (only rent I could afford). 4) I advertise on TV but can only afford daytime spots. 5) There are 6 other gallery's in a town of approx 75,000 (my lower prices are the only way I can compete with them, I THINK??!!).

Any and all input is appreciated!

[Ron Eggers]

Relax, Lyoncat. While deleting the thoughtless comment may be personally gratifying and beneficial to our collective blood pressure, it would turn all the follow-up responses into meaningless messes.

Besides, I don't think William Parker's reputation is at risk here.

Gunzlinger, your question is too broad and too important to get buried in this thread. Why not start a new thread, either here or on the business forum? I promise you'll get a response from me, and probably from several who are much more expert at than me.

[ 07-26-2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]

[Bob Carter]

Hi Gunzlinger-Ron is right, this could/should be athread of it's own.

But a quick answer is there is absolutely nothing wrong with making price an integral part of your strategy. Mr Tucker does it and does so because he buys well and turns his buying advantages into selling advantages. It's a very basic concept (think Wal-Mart).

The problem comes from the inability to effectively buy and manage that growth. If price alone is the base of your startegy, you will work your tail off for little money. However, way too many charge premium prices and work just as hard with just as little to show for it. There are many ways to make money-just as many, if not more, to lose money.

The better question should be is price the only way you can compete and if it is, how low do you have to go to make people come to your door? For example, if you charge $15 for a lite of glass and everyone else charges over $20 a lite, is that the only way to draw clients? And would $16 or $17 draw just as many.

The only effective pricing strategy is one that develops the profit you need and grows your business. If that is a low price and it delivers the necessary requirements-then march on. But never settle for that-look for the opportunities to increase pricing to get closer to market while still offering a true competitive advantage.

Just make sure that the only winner is the consumer, and sometimes low prices only offers one winner. You have to have a lot of other things working for you to make both of you winners

[Warren Tucker]

Holy cow! I didn't think I was that hard on William Parker, a guy I know nothing about except he writes a colum for Decor that I read and don't think much of. Most of his advice would not have helped me or the several other frame businesses we've helped establish. My take, here's a guy writing business advice (and, BTW, it's mostly genaric:it could apply to almost any retail/custom fabrication business). Surely he gets paid for his column, it's not purely an eleemosynary effort and I'd think like any other such column, it's open to criticism.

I don't think I questioned his character or even questioned his motives. I merely relied on what he wrote. All business that have been around a while go through bad business cycles/recessions and dead beat clients. Some survive and some don't. I think there's a reason some don't that's not entirely beyond the responsibility of the owners. I imagine some people lost their jobs as a result of that failure. Finally, his advice doesn't apply to my business model and I'm still in business, not writing a column advising other people how to manage theirs.

I might add here, I don't think much of most of the editorial content of Decor; I'm mostly interested in the advertisements. I especially don't think much of the "Pricing for Profit" issues. Our take here (and we go through it carefully) is that it's a guide for pricing yourself out of business. We love to compete with stores who base their pricing on those reports.

Now to specifics, we're a custom frame business in a small town in a depressed area of NC. We're not distributers although we do help out smaller local framers when they need a quick turnaround.

As to out price structure, you'd better believe it, because if we can do it anyone can and he can set up next door to you. We have state of the art equipment and we do top quality framing. We have a *complete* cabinet shop that can take rough sawn FAS wood, mill it, finish it, and turn it into a shadow box, display case, stretcher, liner blank. A customer wants a 4 1/2" wide linen liner, we can make it in a day. We've even mitered a 24" counter top on our SCMI slidng table saw for a decorator.

We never buy moulding unless we get a 25% discount off list and never have a shipment less than 1,000'. Our cost of materials, including freight, is consistently less than 30% of sales and the prices I gave are actually high because we can't get a very good price on conservation glass. A greater threat than UV light to fugitive inks in art prints is ozone and regular glass protects as well as conservation glass. Regular glass also filters out more than 90% of UV. You pay a lot for that extra 7% conservation glass affords.

As to $55 Freud LU 85's, I'd like to say we've done a lot of research into what is necessary to make an excellent cut in leafed moulding, that is to eliminate chip out at the back of the moulding where the blade exits (almost any blade will cut wood mouldings well) and we've found the LU 85's cut as well as any blade, and will withstand as many sharpenings. The key to good cuts is a good saw with a slow, constant feed rate and a sharp blade. All the frame shops I've been in to offer cutting advice use blades way too dull. When a blade is sharp, it makes almost no noise cutting, as it gets dull, it gets louder and louder. A major problem is that blades dull so gradually that we don't notice until they just stop cutting. While I'm on the subject of blades, we found that cleaning blades is a mugg's game. If it needs cleaning, it needs sharpening. A good rule of thumb. Here's a list of the saws we've done our research on: Brevetti, Cassesse, Pistorius, FrameSquare. For framers, the best cutting blade is a Hy ATB (sometimes called HY AT or lmainate blade) but it dulls way too fast. The best compromise is a Triple chip like the LU 85; the raker adds about 50% to the life of a sharpening.

As to our business being "impossible", I think there are members here who are in NC. A trip to Wilmington would make a nice interlude and anyone is welcome. One thing I haven't mentioned is that our shops are "open shops" with no backrooms. Everything is open to view. If you are in business in our area, ask a salesman what he thinks of The Frame Works in Wilmington.

We're not an agressive business; we don't do promotions or even advertise. We don't try to drive other people out of town, but you might just run into a shop based on our model that is and it'd be tough competition.

We made a heavy investment 2 years ago in digital imaging and printing (spurred on by the Wizard DeVinci idea). We now have three wide format printers (Epson 10000, 7600, 9600), a Cruse art scanner (the finest in the world), drum scanner, and Creo flat bed scanner. We offer imaging services to photographers and artists. When we frame a piece in an Abb Munn frame, usually a portrait, we scan it and make an 8 X 10 print for the customer for insurance purposes. We also do photo restorations. We repair it, print it, frame it. I think, and I may be wrong, that digital imaging is a natural direction for frame shops. I'm amazed at how many prints that we made we end up framing, prints that probably wouldn't have been made if we hadn't offered the service to area artists. BTW, there aren't 20 Cruse Art scanners in the US (check out Crusedigital.com) so we're doing a lot of work for art galleries in other cities. Our Cruse can scan a piece easily up to40 X 60 and with a little trouble much larger than that.

Finally, I think our shop has done a great deal to help picture framers; we routinely fix messes our competitors have made to bail them out (as a courtisy). We've answered questions from all over the country about equipment and business practices. Any framer who has aver wanted to see how our shops work has been more than welcome, something I've rarely seen when I drop in on out of town shops. Try us sometimes.

[B. Newman]

Mr. Tucker, let me be the first to reply (if I'm quick.)

That was a very impressive post. You obviously are a very astute business man and know your business well.

I do truly wish you well.

My problem (and my only problem) with your other post was your "pot-shot" at William Parker. First of all, William is a friend of mine and more importantly, he is a friend of this industry, but that's beside the point. I was more angry that you felt that you had to say something bad about anybody. How much more weight your knowledge would have carried if you had only left that statement out.

The fact that you don't know William, (especially that fact) gives you or no one the right to randomly criticize an individual.

It's a silly cliche I know, but "No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care" still speaks volumes.

I still say, you don't have to put someone else down in order to build yourself up.

Now, let's go back to posting to truly help each other.

Betty

[AWG]

Well said, Betty!

Mr Tucker, next time the wife and I have a day off (yeah, right) we'll take you up on the offer.

[Warren Tucker]

Days off in small retail businesses (the ones that survive, anyway) are hard to find; the only ones I can count on are Sundays and major hollidays. Since we started giclee printing and digital imaging (the two go hand in hand) I've given up most Sundays.

In the 25 years we've been in business, my wife and I have never had a whole week's vacation. A very small business is very demanding especially when there are other people depending on it for a living (employes and their families). Still, we're glad to meet you on any Sunday or holliday. In the fall, Saturdays usually find us in Chapel Hill when there are home games but we're usually back by Sunday. We have a very good staff and could take more time off, but I worry.

[Framerguy]

Betty gave you a wise reply, Mr. Tucker. Most of the attendees to this forum are small business people, some smaller than others, but we all are proud of what we do and we all are here to learn more about our trade. To have a person like yourself come here to this forum, infer that we are dolts that don't know much about framing and can't really operate a business on the "level" that you operate your business on is sure to rankle a few feathers. And I think you knew that going in.

For what it's worth, your continued critisism of Mr. Parker and your issues with Decor (I am mainly interested in the advertisements), along with your "been there, done that" attitude to all phases of framing and most anything that is connected to framing, leaves me with a really bad taste in my mouth. Where have you been all these 25 years in the framing trade? Are you THAT selfish and egocentric that you never thought to share any of your knowledge with the rest of the industry? I just don't buy your "holier than thou" attitude one bit, I'm sorry.

I have been framing almost as long as you say that you have been in business and I feel a responsibility to this industry and to the young framers just starting out to share my knowledge with them. (Although, flawed as it apparently is.)

The real problem that I would bet many of the visitors here have with you is we have seen the likes of you before in this forum. Somebody who is so knowledgeable and could do so much good and help so many others and they are so full of themselves and so damned pompous that there is no way anyone can converse with them on any but their own lofty level.

I am done with this subject and don't feel the need to say anything more now or later.

Thank you.

Tom Reigle, aka, Framerguy

[Bob Carter]

Hey Mr Tucker-I think everything got off on the wrong foot when you made a gratuitous comment about William running his business into the ground.

So, let's just say we have an uphill battle. But if you try, most here will also.

But, I have to check your resource on clear glass having 90% UV filtration? We, too, buy glass in pallets and also pay a premium for Cons clear. But I am fairly certain that regular glass only has uv filtration of under 50%. Would you share your resource on that fact?

I think you are trying, and so will I. You probably will add another element that most could benefit from

[William Parker]

Warren et al,

First of all, thank you for reading the articles each month. Yes, I can see from the description of you business, the articles would not have a direct application to your business model. Although, next month I use the internal rate of return (IRR) to evaluate growth options. This can apply to any business (shameless self promotion).

My goal for the column is to appeal to the breadth of the industry. This is the independent retailer in a 20 X 60 (1200 square foot) retail space with an annual sales volume of $350,000 or less. This does not describe my current business, but it does describe where I started.

The challenge to create a a successful business at this level is very hard, because frequently you are a one-man band. Encompassed in your job description is designer, framer, and business person. Designer, and framer (I've got 80 pieces due by Friday) usually come before business person. Like you, this group works six or seven days during the average week and takes home less than they should. This is my target market for the column.

My objective for the column and articles is to help the reader avoid the mistakes I have made in my business life. It would be correct to say that success could be built on doing exactly what I did not do. If I say go east, you should go west.

My credentials for writing the column come from my failures, and, as Bob Carter noted, what I learned from each. In reality, there have been three, not one, and each has taught me something new about myself and about the choices we make in the development of our businesses. Given my personality and my desire to grab for the brass ring (take risks) there well may be more failures ahead.

What I have learned is that our business choices can kill a business, mine have. I can tell you that going through the death of a business gives you a new perspective on success in much the same way that a person sitting in a doctor's office and hearing that their life is to be measured in months not years, looks at each new dawn as a rare and wonderful gift. I have lived through the **** that follows a failed business and I would not wish that on anyone. If something in the column can help one person avoid following my path, then I have done something of note.

This industry has kindly let me try again, and again. For this kindness, I do feel an obligation to give back.

Lest I imply that this is totally selfless, I do get a lot back. For example, in this thread I had to look up the word "eleemosynary" which I had never seen before. It is a darn good word and I am going to use it. And no, the column is not an eleemosynary effort. Although given the parsimony of Decor it is hardly enriching.

Warren, you are on the road to the future of our industry. The digital printing equipment that you added in the last few years puts you on the cutting edge of the printing industry. I think you have much to give to the Grumble, and I would encourage you to share.

As to any personal slight, there was none. As Ron noted, I am a big target, and I accept the fact that not everyone will find value in what I write or say. Sometimes it is nice to have thick skin.

Finally, Warren, I will be in Concord, North Carolina on August 23rd and 24th and if you are close by, I would like to see your business. I think there may be some things I could learn from a visit. Remember, I am still looking for that perfect business model. I am not above borrowing one that works better that what I have created. If it is close and you have time, I would like to meet you.

William Parker, CPF GCF Anti-hero

PS Y'all be nice to Warren now...ya hear.

[ 07-26-2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: William Parker ]

[framah]

I'll tell you , the main thing I'm hearing from Mr. Tucker and it agrees with my business philosophy. Buy the best equipment you can possibly afford and it will reward you handsomely in the end!! All of the stuff he listed are the best out there and allows him to perform ANY task that comes in. I just bought a Pistorius chopper this spring and at around $8500, it was a major investment to my small one man business but it allows me to do ALOT more work more accurately in less time than before. I have also just bought an Epson 9600 printer and already have a **** linotype flatbed scanner with a 6000 dpi scan and a Nikon coolscan film scanner at 4000 dpi.
I, too, can now offer to my artists and regular clients the availability of printing their work at the best quality around and then frame it. It takes money to make money and I plan to make money with as little hassle as possible. He seems to be doing it quite nicely and I personally couldn't care less what he thinks of Mr. Parker or anyone else. You all need to get thicker skins and open your eyes and ears and just maybe you'll learn something here. :rolleyes:

[framah]

Interesting... The process that be bleeped out the name of a Major German Company. That should have been h, e, double hockey sticks. Is that ok?? :eek:

[gemsmom]

Mr. Tucker's statement that regular glass blocks out 90% of UV light rays is incorrect. Regular glass offers only 47% blockage vs. <97% blockage for UV protectant. The light TRANSMISSION for both these glasses is 90-91%. I think he has confused these two elements. There is a big difference between the two.

Am I the only one who thinks something is wrong if the owner of a business can't take time off for vacation and must work 7 days a week? It's usually necessary when a business is new, but after 25 years? I must be very naive, very lucky, or very smart. Maybe a little of all three. I haven't put in those kind of hours in years.

[Bob Carter]

Hi Pam-I don't think there is anything wrong with anyone working as much as they want to. I have often worked as much as he does; I also work as little as I need to, taking off as much time as I need. It's why I prefer to run my own show.

The problem comes from having to work that much. He alluded to never taking a week off with his wife. Mine would either kill me or send me a postcard from Italy, but that's not why I'm working.

An easy solution? Since he does about 9900 orders a year and since he is very much "below market" on his pricing, my free advice would be to go up $10.00 an order (I'll bet he would still be well
"under market") and with that $100k he could hire a couple of great Administrative Assistants to ensure a smooth operation. He seems to so many other things right

We ought to run our businesses not have them run us.

[sheritex]

Wow...just read all of this...I am very new in this business and some of the posts were a little confusing...but am old enough to recognize that Mr. Parker is a classy man

[Jason Maranto]

I know a gentleman who recently passed on... he co-owned and ran a art supply business for 25+ years -- worked every day of the week.

He was a great buyer -- a wheeler and dealer with sales reps and frequently got prices so good he could compete with the giants of the industry on price and win... but it came at a cost, he had razor thin profit margins, and even though he grossed more than a million a year (which is pretty **** good for a local store) he didn't take home more than $50,000 a year for his 70 hour weeks. This was partially due to his penchant of finding the lowest price anywhere and beating it by at least one penny.

Now I worked with this gentleman for quite awhile and got a good inside look at how his business was run and I have to say he could have done 2 things better:

1) Hire and train a good manager so he could have some time off to enjoy his twilight years.

2) Raise prices -- You don't have to beat the competition, all you need is to be the same price -- most folks don't count pennies but a million of them add up fast.


Jason.

[jframe]

Wow, what great replys from Betty, Pam, Bob & William! I agree, if we can't take a little time off here and there, what are we working for?

There isn't a shop owner on this forum who hasn't put in very long hours tedious hours seven days a week for long periods of time, if not years in order to get the business up and going.

If we don't have our businesses under control enough to take a bit of time off after 25 years of hard labor are we really successful?

Not by American standards, and we are the hardest working people in the world.

[Barb Pelton]

Originally posted by Jason Maranto:
I know a gentleman who recently passed on... he co-owned and ran a art supply business for 25+ years -- worked every day of the week.

...though he grossed more than a million a year (which is pretty **** good for a local store) he didn't take home more than $50,000 a year for his 70 hour weeks. Now I love framing as much as the next person, but that falls way short of my definition of success. To work nearly everyday for that kind of take home is insane. (And I live in one of the lowest cost of living areas in the US.) I suppose there are some people who would rather work everyday of their lives rather than do anything else. In that case, they really don't require much income, because they would never go anywhere to spend it. I'm sure this man was a wonderful person, but those margins need a make-over!

[Jerry Ervin]

Gosh, I'm gone from here for a couple days and look what happens. Wild Bill does have a nice web site.

Jerry