Mounting canvas print

[celeste_k]

I just had a customer with two canvas prints (not the transfers, these are actually printed on the canvas), and was wondering about the proper way to mount these. The customer wants mats, so I dont think I would stretch them.... or would I?
We haven't had any of these in here before and I wanted to get the skinny on mounting them before I attempt anything.
Thanks

[JRB]

Celeste, This was covered about four or five months ago.

If it was me, I would use Yes Paste. Use a cold vacume press four about ten minutes after you lay it into the glue. This is risky because Yes Paste is water based & you do not want water to touch the ink, at all, so be very carefull.

These things are supposedly designed to be stretched, but they are a major pain to do so. Again, you have to be extreamly carefull, if you get it too tight, you can crack the ink. If you don't get it tight enough, it will look warped or puckered. Mounting, is by far, the easiest way to go.

John

[celeste_k]

I tried searching it, and came up with nothing... maybe I'm typing the wrong thing in. Anyway, can these things be drymounted in a heat press? I would imagine it depends on the ink.

[Bogframe]

The canvas may give just enopugh support to avoid rippling. Try just hinging it and then doing the may. If this doesn't work, my second choice would be using the Yes! paste. Be careful, though, the print on the canvas may be water-soluable, and could possibly run.

[JRB]

Do Not use heat, whatever else You do, don't try heat, unless you know for sure the type of print.

The best policy to have in a frame shop is, if your in doubt about the outcome, don't do it.

There are several types of canvas prints, the old, printed with a regular mechanical offset printing press. If it is one of those, heat is OK.
Canvas transfer prints, No heat.
Gicklee' ( not sure of spelling) Absolutly, no heat or water on the ink. My first response was assuming it was a Gicklee'"

Yes paste is probably the safest bet. Roll it on your mounting board with a 3" short knap paint touch up roller. Roll in both directions, get an even coat. Sight across the glue from the edge of the board and pick out any chuds that may be in the glue. Your glued area should be larger than the print being mounted. Lay the print in the glue, starting at one end, smooth it down as you go. Cover the entire print and glue with a sheet of Kraft paper and place it in your COLD mounting press for about ten minutes. Remove it from the press and tear the cover sheet (KRAFT) from the print. Get a start in the cover paper and tear away from the center of the print toward the edges. This is so you don't inadvertantly tear the print.

Good Luck,

John

[celeste_k]

Does mounting it with yes paste hurt the value... I noticed a tag on the tube when they brought it in that said $125.00, although they didn't seem concerned with conservation.

[JRB]

Celest, yes, mounting any print will be cause for a potential buyer to negotiate a lower price, if not pass on the deal alltogether.

Your customer has to decide if they are "parlor framing" or "conservation framing". It's your resposability to explain to your customers the ins and outs of both. Never assume either situation for your customer, make sure they understand before they make a decision.

Yes Paste is a removable mount, however, that procedure, should be performed by a conservator. I do not know if it is a acid free or non yellowing glue or not. I've seen several framers use it as a conservation glue, but I'm not so sure. Maybe some of the other Grumblers would know more about it's composition.

John

[Rebecca]

John -

Thanks for putting that so clearly and so nicely. I often have clients ask me to estimate the cost of a backing removal (drymount/animal glue/yes paste, whatever) before they consider buying a piece of art. Sometimes they decide against buying because the piece is backed. The same holds true for hinges, tape, poorly done restorations etc.

FYI, it is REALLY HARD to undo a modern drymount, especially when the art is mounted to foamboard. Every last little bit of styrafoam has to be picked off (very knuckle bleeding task)before even begining to undo the adhesive. It can take up to 3+ days to "unpick" a large piece of foam board.

Rebecca

[JRB]

Rebeca, I have "lifted" modern drymounts on foam core by just using heat to soften the glue on the drymount tissue, then slowly lifting the print, starting at one corner. Mounting on foam core using spray glue is another matter all together, I've used "Unseal", with some success, but it is slow and painstaking. Using heat is very risky because you can burn the print. Unseal is messy and your working in those fumes for longer than I think is wise. A conservator is, without a doubt, the best way to go.

John

[po' framer]

Rebecca and John, very good discussion about the merits and pitfalls. The discussion seems almost irrelevant to the particular piece because of its low value, it seems to me, but I really appreciate the tips and points.

Now this is all ArtLady's fault for pointing out the difference between the fine art market and reproductions. It's just my opinion and is therefore worth what it costs, but it's hard for me to get too excited about whether the value of a $125 item is "retained or damaged" by mounting. I'm not saying that it should be destroyed by the framing or anything, but this particular piece should have been purchased because of the pleasure and enjoyment of viewing it instead of *shudder* its investment value.

If it's properly framed it'll probably be worth about, oh, $125 in 20 years and that includes inflation. Or else it'll be worth a buck in a garage sale after an extended negotiation. Either way, other than marring it visually by damaging the ink as mentioned above, the different ways it might be mounted are hardly going to affect whether or not Junior can depend on its sale to pay college tuition.

Take what you can use and send the rest to Bossy Ellen...... :D

[JRB]

Po Framer, your ability to see into the future is truly astounding. I remember when you could pick up a signed Vaserelie ( not sure of spelling) for less than $150.00 in furniture stores. It's a shame they were framed accordingly, mounted to chip board & placed against the glass, they held their original value quite well, they are, to this day, worth less than $150.00

John

[Rebecca]

Yeah John, oh good, let's gang up on Po'!!

No, but seriously, this is a question that really deserves its own topic, and once I unchain myself from horrible deadlines, I would like to start the thread. Namely, how do framers, owners, conservators etc. make curatorial decisions if they don't have a tame curator on hand? How do we decide what merits reversible framing and what doesn't? We don't always have the luxury of research, and I know for sure mistakes are made. Celeste was right to ask the question.

Conservators have a code of ethics, part of which states that treatments should be reversible. Now that is the ideal, nothing is truely reversible, but at least there is a guideline in place to give direction. Maybe it's time that framers think about developing their own ethical code which gives guidelines for this type of situation. It kind of fits in with Nona's call to arms doesn't it?

Rebecca

[ArtLady]

Did someone call me?

Photo offset open addition prints are made with very fine ink and usually on pulp paper. The inks that are used need to be fine to produce the fine small 4 color dots that make up the larger areas of color. This leaves a chemical cocktail to frame that is subject to fading from without and within. As a result if they do survive they may increase in value. However, they are created for a market with a lower price point and not longevity. Some are signed and numbered and very collectible.

Let the customer know the options and make the decision. I do not believe it is the framer's job to decide for the customer.

One of the new mediums on the market that has me confused is a serilith. What is that? Is it fine art? This is totally confusing to the public and professionals alike. It sounds like a publisher who wants a lower price point with a greater margin on artwork that is a limited edition.

The new works on canvas are becoming more accepted. Some of them are fine art and should be framed accordingly. Stretching them is an art. Many times they are more fragile than original canvases. If there is a heavy varnish sometimes hand tension is the best in the stretching process or the varnish will crack. Usually they are coated with a UV filtering varnish. However, if a customer is concerned with the piece fading I advise them to have their house windows coated with UV and Infared filtering film. This will help save the artwork and the furniture and rugs. This may be an expense but well worth it. If they are collectors, there are costs involved. Like collecting fine wine there is a cost involved in increasing the longevity.

[EllenAtHowards]

how do framers, owners, conservators etc. make curatorial decisions if they don't have a tame curator on hand? How do we decide what merits reversible framing and what doesn't?
Rebecca[/QUOTE]

Ah! One of my favorite Hobbyhorses! This is the argument I use to customers who don't want to spend too much, it's just a poster. "Like the first Star Wars posters?" Or, my nephew painted it. "Picasso was someone's nephew". The point is that our Code of Ethics should begin like the Hippocratic Oath: First, Do No Harm. I figure if they care enough to have it custom framed, then it should be done right. They really have to twist our arms to get anything less. (OK I have a drymount poster special... but I'm not proud of it)Ahh, I feel better now (temporarily, of course)

[JRB]

This is a tough one, for sure. I try to put that ball in the customers court as much as I can. While trying not to set myself up as the local "framing Police" I tell the customers the ins & outs of both types of framing , Parlor or Conservation.

If it's a piece that I know for sure has value, yet they insist on parlor framing, I have a bright blue ink rubber stamp that I use on their invoice that reads " Customer understands that this type of framing will destroy the collectable value of their artwork" It's in large block letters that I have them sign, as well as signing the bottom of the invoice. I do not use it on every invoice, just the ones I know for sure should have it.

This is why I love The Grumble, any thread can go in any direction.

John

[Orton]

I publish giclees on canvas 28 x 42 and stretch them only.

Hinging will work on small canvases, particularly if they are narrow and vertically oriented - but be cautioned, they do not look as good as a stretched canvas.

If c-p is a consideration at all, paste should not enter into the question.

[Rebecca]

"Let the customer know the options and make the decision. I do not believe it is the framer's job to decide for the customer."

Art Lady

"I cannot tell you how many times I've had to refuse jobs where the customer insisted on wanting to see his/her valuable poster laying perfectly flat in the frame and to know that only irreversible dry-mounting would accomplish this."

Framing Goddess

Yes, the owner can make a decision, but that dosen't mean that the framer or conservator or whoever, has to do it. Conservators have have a code of ethics that takes care of the dilemma - the answer is just "sorry, no can do". Usually clients are willing to hear what I have to say.

Now look at all the hub-bub on the Movie Poster thread. Sue aside (and I certainly took exception to her nasty style of self promotion) perhaps the real answer is to keep promoting the Certified Framer, as distinct from the Uncertified. I know there are growing pains/political/personal difficulties associated with this, but it would be an instant rebuttal to the Sue's of this world, and, if Sue were a member of this group, she would be censured for unprofessional conduct!

Rebecca

[po' framer]

well, I guess you never know, but I sorta refuse to get my angst up in the stratosphere.... I'll let the estate lawyers eat up the value while they sort it out