Police Car Decal

[Emibub]

I may have bitten off more than I can chew here. I am doing a shadowbox for memorabilia for a policeman. Included is a thirty year old decal that would have been place on a car. It has been rolled this whole time. As you can see it is cracked in many places. I'm not sure how to proceed. The gentleman doesn't care about conservation, that ship has obviously sailed. My original idea was to peel it off in pieces and adhere it to a matboard. I'm wondering if there is any way to flatten it while still attached to the decal paper. The gentlman went to pull a bit of the paper back and a piece just fell off. I don;t think normal flattening methods apply here. I thought about flattening it in stages? I would love any input here. Maybe I shouldn't use it at all? Sometimes I miss the days when I would send these projects to other little fledgling frameshops...........but now I'm the little fledgling frameshop. http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwDeAvMVPSH1cd8k5!cyuvoOE5wjh*NFNU4raAN!dKDPFPawS 3MJ5N7JhdfQ011jK8iv6MbFeURKdnaUWPWPeSm5xoLZw9BIfhm vJx9lrkCptkRzWkMP!A/P1010005.JPG

[ 02-03-2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: emibub ]

[Maryann]

I'll take a stab at it. Not sure of the rest of your design in the shadowbox, but I would atg about 3/4" around the decal and cover with a piece of Mylar D. This will flatten it considerably. The atg and edges of the mylar would be covered by a mat.

[fttom]

You could also try to intoduce a little humidity to the whole thing, and see if this will allow it to flatten out. If it is a true decal, it was made to be wet, and placed on the vehicle, wet. Getting the carrier paper damp may just do the job, then cover it with release paper on both sides,and some weight until it dries flat. Is the part that is raised sticky? If not, than it is a real decal, and not a big sticker. Then, I'd mount it the way Maryann suggests.

[Framerguy]

Oops, ya slipped on that one, Susan! :eek:

Vehicle decals were not made to go on wet. They were plastic/vinyl decals that had adhesive on their reverse sides and were on carrier paper from the graphics shop/manufacturer where they were made. The water you refer to was actually a very dilute mixture of detergent and water (surfactant) that the autobody man sprayed on the surface of the vehicle in order to position the decal in its proper spot and then squeegee all of the air out from behind the decal. The mixture was "right" when it caused the liquid to sheet on the painted surface instead of bead up.

The carrier paper was peeled off first (here is where the novice made their fatal mistakes with these things) and then the decal carefully laid onto the wet surface. Assuming that you didn't let any of the decal touch itself (fatal mistake), you could then line up the decal and squeegee all of the liquid and air out from behind it and have a perfect application that would fade into oblivion before it ever came off the door surface. (Sometimes).

Kathy, from the looks of the condition of that decal, I would say that you have one that was stored in a hot attic for the last 30 years. These decals will last a long time when properly applied to the sides of a squad car, they won't when stored rolled up on their carrier paper and stored in a hot environment and they surely aren't made to last 30 years! I would suggest that you might try to adhere the cracked and separated portions back down to the carrier paper and then cut the badge shape out of the carrier paper and then try to mount the entire thing somehow.

I don't see any way for this decal to be properly salvaged in its entirety.

Sorry.

Framerguy

[ 02-03-2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Framerguy ]

[jframe]

I wonder if you could do a digital photo and touch it up on a computer and use that instead of the original?

[Less]

I would find a reputable body man with years of decal experience, and have him/her mount it on black or white sheet metal used for signs. No guarantees.
Yup, that is what I would do. Sounds like a great job!

Even better, would be to find the original hood and mount the decal to that!

[ 02-03-2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[Kit]

Kathy, I can't guage the size of the decal from the photo but I'm guessing about half the size of a car door. Close?

If it's that big, I'd use it as background for the other objects going into the shadowbox. Maryann's mylar wrap sounds like a good method for mounting it.

Then spacer. Then plexi.

Smaller items to be included are attached to the plexi, strategicly placed to hide the worst of the damage on the decal.

Then another spacer and a second sheet of plexi.

The pieces between the two sheets of plexi will appear to float above the decal.

Good luck with this one.

Kit

[fttom]

Sorry, Tom. I thought that all of the old decals were made the way I discribed. Shows what I know. These things go on like window film. It's the same sort of application, as what you discribed.

PS: I guess that also shows my age. I haven't seen a real, lift off with water decal in more years than I really want to count tonight.

[ 02-03-2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: fttom ]

[Framerguy]

Originally posted by lessafinger:
I would find a reputable body man with years of decal experience, and have him/her mount it on black or white sheet metal used for signs. No guarantees.
Yup, that is what I would do. Sounds like a great job!

Even better, would be to find the original hood and mount the decal to that! Less,

Chances are the original adhesive is shot too. These decals were made to last about 2 to 3 years, the average life of the patrol car before they trade it for a newer model. If the decal has deteriorated this much, probably the adhesive is also deteriorated.

I like Kit's idea of the plexi layers for the other stuff that may be included in the S'box. How did the decal crack? Did the customer bring it in this way? Or did it crack when you started to work with it? Is the decal brittle? Could it be peeled off fairly intact from the carrier paper? Just some questions about the condition as I may have an idea to try.

In the body shop, when we would remove one of these decals to repair body damage on a door, we would first heat it up with a heat gun to soften it, and then scrape it off the door and clean any excess adhesive off the surface. OK, if you applied a little heat to the decal, I wonder if it would soften enough to remove it from the carrier paper? It isn't "glued" to that paper. It may just come off in one piece or a few large pieces. Then you could do as kit said and mount it to a mat board, possibly a yellow close to the decal color, and use it for the background of the S'box.

It is difficult trying to guess what to do when the decal is in Colorado and the body man is in Illinois! tongue.gif

Framerguy

[Framerguy]

Kathy,

There is a very fine line when you heat these things where they will soften enough to be pliable but firm and past that they will soften too much and stretch. IF you are going to try this, let me know and I will give you some more pointers on just how to tell when it is warm enough but not too warm.

That decal looks like it is a door decal from Dade County, Florida. I doubt that they would have anything that old looking to maybe try to get another one. They usually throw any extras away as they change the designs and upgrade the layout of the decals on their vehicles. So you may have only one shot at this.

Framerguy

[Emibub]

Oops! Lot's of questions and ideas here. Forgot to check back............

1. It is a decal w/carrier paper. It is exactly like the renewal decals you get when you renew your plates every year. It is still sticky.

2. The size is 14x20.

3. The cracking and lifting were present when he brought it in. He is aware I have a dilemma.

My fear is if I try to lift it off the carrier paper it will continue to break and chip. I think Kit has the best idea with the plexi. I actually had called the gentleman tonight to inquire if he had more things to add. Right now I have a patch, a badge, the decal and a police magazine which features this guy directing traffic at Christmas time wearing a santa hat. It is ironic because after they printed the cover with him on it he was suspended for 3 days for being out of uniform. What a perfect idea to place things over damaged areas. It is time for me to use mylar. I bought Jim Miller's leaflet on using mylar, but I haven't ordered any yet.

I'm still unclear about what you guys are talking about getting it wet. I will reread this when I am more awake. Thanks for all input so far, you guys are great. Any more would be great too.

[ 02-04-2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: emibub ]

[fttom]

Kathy, skip my idea of getting it wet,and maybe being able to stick it back down. I defer to Tom in this one. It is not the kind of decal that I thought that it was, and he has much more experience with these than I do. The kind of decal I was talking about existed prior to these, and the whole thing had to be imersed in water to remove them from the carrier sheet, then slid, very carefully onto whatever you were going to put them on. If you were very lucky, it didn't fold back on itself, or stick to anything else, and only stuck where you wanted it. The last one of these I had was when I was in school at Va Tech, and put one on a coffee cup.

[Framerguy]

Kathy,

If you are afraid of it cracking and chipping if you try to remove the carrier paper, that tells me that it isn't very pliable anymore.

I was pondering this delemna on the throne this morning (I do some of my BEST thinking there), and I was thinking about maybe smoothing out the decal as much as you can and then placing it in your vacuum press under gentle heat and vacuum to flatten it for mounting. If it worked, you could mylar the decal and carrier paper together and go for it!

If you could get the decal to lay flat in the places where it is cracked (the worst looks to be right below the word "Dept.", I'll bet that the addition of heat and vacuum would flatten that puppy down good enough to work with.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Framerguy

[JudyN]

Check the yellow pages....You might want to call a place in the Denver area that makes decals and take it to them. Maybe they have an old one to practice with...
I actually worked ( for a very short time ) in a place in Denver and silk screened decals like you have. It was oil based inks. ( The stuff you cleaned the screens with was very toxic so I did not stay long.) They did police and military decals. I even had to have "top secret" clearance just to work there! I do not remember the name of the place.
Ask them how the decal would react to heat . It could be a problem. Don't take a chance with it without finding out...

Good luck,
Judy

[framah]

Something else to think about... When letters are cut out on a sign making machine, a sheet of adhesive paper is put on the front of the letters. Then when it is time to place them, you peel the backing paper off and place the letters where you want them, burnish them down (same squeegy you use on PMA) and then just peel the paper off. I've done this a few times and I know it does work, but whether it will work on something that is cracking, I don't know. I think that as long as the edges of the cracks aren't curling up from the backer paper this should work. If you say the back is still sticky, then I think all of the pieces should adhere into place and stay put when you remove the paper layer you put on top. It isn't a very agressive adhesive on this stuff so the adhesive on the decal should more that overpower it. Check with a sign maker in your area. They will know what I'm talking about. ;)

[Framerguy]

Yeah, you are probably talking about something like this:

http://members.papadocs.com/framer1/Grumble/vinylsign.jpg

Coincidentally, I just made these signs yesterday for my gallery property.

The "adhesive paper" you are referring to is actually a fairly low tack veeeery wide masking tape. The problem that she may have with using this is the condition of the adhesive on the decal. Kathy said it felt "sticky". That adhesive shouldn't feel "sticky", it should have the same feeling as the PPFA window decal that many of you have on your front door or window. It should feel tacky but, when it goes into sticky, as in ATG on the back of a frame with UnSeal on it, it has passed its usefullness. I am not even sure that the cracked areas will stay down after using moderate heat and vacuum.

I do feel that the mounting paper we are talking about here is likely to do damage to the decal if it is at all brittle.

The decal came from the Dade County Public Safety Dept. which is in Southern Florida so I don't think that Kathy will have much luck coming up with another like the one she has.

Judy might have a very good idea if you can flatten the decal enough to use a wide bed scanner. You could scan the decal into a computer, do any touchups in PhotoShop, and cut a new vinyl decal. It probably will have to be cut in 2 stages, the yellow background and the black lettering which would then be adhered to the background. Silkscreening the decal is a possibility also but I'll bet that the vinyl will be cheaper.

Framerguy

[framah]

Yeah... What he said!! tongue.gif tongue.gif

[MarkG1]

I was pondering this delemna on the throne this morning (I do some of my BEST thinking there) Framerguy,

I could have done without this information!

My question is a bit off subject, but have you not sold or leased your place yet? Mabe you can go to Florida and check on a new decal for Kathy.

[Emibub]

Great ideas everybody. Especially you Tom, you are determined to crack this case right open. I am ordering mylar from United, this one isn't in any hurry, I just wanted to know what I am up against. I will have to post pictures when I'm done. Thanks everybody.

[Framerguy]

Originally posted by markg1:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I was pondering this delemna on the throne this morning (I do some of my BEST thinking there) Framerguy,

I could have done without this information!

My question is a bit off subject, but have you not sold or leased your place yet? Mabe you can go to Florida and check on a new decal for Kathy. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, just what you need!!

It's about time you expand your operation. And what better place to expand than Salem!

Contact me for more details. I will make you an offer you can't resist. :eek:

FGII