Bigboxframer

[UzZx32QU]

BigBoxFramer requested his threads removed. It's a long story!!!!

framer

[JRB]

Bill, please see my response to that issue in the thread " What do I say ".

PLEASE! do not allow that lawyer to bully you into deleting ANYTHING from The Grumble. Make the S.O.B. get a court order. We can not allow sensorship by outsiders on The Grumble. This is a public forum, it is protected by the first amendment.

John

[Walt C]

I'm not interested in the "long story" but I'm with John on this one. We can't let censorship invade our forum.

[Emibub]

Yes, this changes everything..................I no longer feel free speaking my mind. Simmer on down Ron, don't get your hopes up too high........

I wish you could have left Jim's response up a while longer, it was really well written and I'm thinking he was speaking what a lot of us feel.

[ 07-15-2003, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]

[Hobbes03]

I'm throwing my 2 cents in as well. Please do not delete those threads. Censorship has no place here.

-Mike.

[Maryann]

I would not like to be put in the middle of a legal conflict.
Having said that, I think it's a shame that an attorney can come on the board, intimidating everyone that dares to post to a public, educational forum AND NOT EVEN IDENTIFY HIM/HERSELF by name ...and we cave. Bigboxframer signed the COE, even if it is stupid, and should have been governed by the contents. Bigboxframer could have come on the board, posted and learned, and not identified himself as a Michael's employee. He chose to do so and is apparently suffering the consequences of his actions.
Jim Miller articulated my thoughts earlier in a much clearer fashion,...but it's probably been deleted. It's all wrong.

Maryann Shirk
Blue Mountain Gallery

[ 07-15-2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Maryann ]

[Jim Miller]

At his request it's OK to remove the threads, but I'm glad nobody else asked to get rid of them. It's your call of course, Framer. Grumble History isn't to be trifled with lightly, I'm sure.

Perhaps BigBoxFramer will reincarnate as another, more agreeable persona. His commentary was OK in most respects, actually. Attitudes can change. At least he knows how to spell and use punctuation. tongue.gif

There isn't a framer anywhere who doesn't have something to share, and something to learn. Probably BigBoxFramer, and maybe even FramenFreak, could help some of us with a tip or trick.

Sharing is what this is all about, right? I respectfully submit that now would be a good time to get back to that.

[Less]

Is someone allowed to copy it and put it back?

[Less]

Censorship?

Hey this could make a really great story for the trade magazines.

Shark Eats Little Fish

[ 07-15-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[Ron Eggers]

One or two of you may be missing the point.

No attorney bullied framer into deleting anything. Framer deleted what he deleted at BigBox's request.

If you know anything about Framer, you'd know he can't be bullied. He WILL respond to a courteous request, from time-to-time.

[Bob Carter]

Guys-This request came from the original poster, not anyone else. Nobody is censoring anything. If framer wishes to honor the request of someone that feels this was a mistake, I don't have any problem.

But, if someone outside the group made the same request under threat, well, that's a different can of worms.

The truth is in a couple of days no one will remember much about this whole episode (hopefully)

[Walt C]

If someone makes a request to have their posts removed that should be honored.

I just hope that BBFramer didn't make his request under duress from an outsider. :(

[JRB]

I agree, the author of a post or thread, should be allowed to reconsider if it is going to cause a personal hardship.
I had misread bill's post and thought it was the lawyer who was asking. Although, I guess he did, through BBF.

John

[jvandy57]

Originally posted by framer:
It's a long story!!!!

framer Can you, like, sorta, give us the condensed version, I'm sorta interested in what actually transpired. Unless of course BBF said don't tell anybody.

[Manny]

Wow------I'm in shock as to what has transpired in the last couple of days. Now this has confirmed what I have always believed about Michael's. Any company that has to have a gag order put on their employees obviously has something to hide. I have worked for a large company in the past and they respected their employees and in return their employees respected the company. The company never had to worry about their reputation.......I am talking 1,000 employees. Michaels is a retail store, not the FBI or CIA. Employees should be able to speak of their jobs and policies freely. I am appalled that they subject their employees to this kind of policy.

Any lawyer worth his salt does not show up on a public forum and conduct him(her)self the way this one did. Most companies keep this kind of thing private and do not do anything to embarrass and expose their employees to this kind of ridicule. For this reason, I do not believe for one moment that this person was actually a professional lawyer, it was most likely a manager of the store. And if it is a lawyer, shame on them, Michaels should be looking for a new one!

I am venting because, even though BBF was arrogant at times, I found it amusing because he's young and has lots to learn, we cannot hold that against him. He should have been treated in a more respectful manner by Michaels. I hope he comes back to this forum in the future because everyone should be welcomed and allowed to practice their freedom of speech.

Marie

[dns ynko]

i am going to shut my mouth on this one...i still am completely confused. i don't want it explained, because i think i will still be lost.

i don't think we should allow anyone to push us around or intimidate us. on the other hand let him go...everything was a **** of alot better with out him. so sorry to have anything to do with this.
that is it on this from me
dennisssssss

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by Manny:
Now this has confirmed what I have always believed about Michael's. Any company that has to have a gag order put on their employees obviously has something to hide. I agree! They deceive the public and now I feel like they rule their employees with a iron hand.

Things have a way of working themselves out.

Jerry

[McPhoto]

Perhaps BBF will continue to "lurk" on this forum
and change his "handle" - We should support his efforts to be heard (even if we don't agree with him) And, in turn he should learn to accept CONSTRUCTIVE criticisim without seeking to apply retribution on other members of the grumble.

[Bob Carter]

The easiest thing in the world is to dump on Michael's. But we need to understand that this post from Michael's Legal just might not be legitimate.

Let's all let this thing go before anyone else gets hurt. There really could be some innocent casualties since we really don't know all the details.

[Less]

But we need to understand that this post from Michael's Legal just might not be legitimate.
Now we're talkin. Less is pretty sure who the mastermind is, but who's in the supporting roles?

Like a Michaels' Lawyer would waste time posting on the Grumble.

Who played the FramingFreak?
BigBoxFramer?
The Lawyer?

Bravo!!!

Who was the production for?

John?

Thought BBF may have been real until he personally requested to remove the thread.

This is almost as good as when they turned the lights out.

Could be the Unseal?

[ 07-15-2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[PurplePerson]

Good, good idea Less! The Grumble wants to know. Where are the players hiding? Please print us a program so we can see the actors.

We have former Michaelers on this forum. They could tell us whether there really is such a contract. Why have they not spoken? Is the agreement for life? Are these Michaelers part of the "play"?

[Ron Eggers]

Yes, the whole thing is just one big conspiracy.

You can go to the Michael's site and read the contract yourself. It's a matter of public record.

To my knowledge, nobody knows if FF and BBF are real or a hoax.

Well, I guess FF and BBF would know.

And Less, in case you're starting to DRINK the Unseal, instead of just inhaling, I can tell you that I've never registered on The Grumble under any other screen name. I can barely keep up with my own posting quota.

Oh, you said, "mastermind." You're obviously thinking of someone else.

Sorry.

[UzZx32QU]

For the record, I believe the person bigboxframer is real, I received several personal emails from him apologizing for any grief his posting caused and wanted his treads removed because he/she really feared for their job after reading the link to the Micheal's site. That document was real also. I seriously doubt that person that posted it has anything to do with Micheal, maybe an ex-employee. Their email went to a free email site, which I don't think Micheal's would use.

Once aware that the Code of Ethics for their company existed BBF understandably can't post again on this forum.

That's the facts most of the facts, maybe subject to change as the fog and confusion of The Grumble rolls on.

framer

[DTWDSM]

OK I have stayed out of this and all of the other FF and BBF posts until now...

Get over it people! It is over, he/she/they are gone for now. Water under the bridge!

This is a forum for framing issues not for framers to rip on and complain about someone who is trying to get a rise out of people or who just has a different opinion about the business.

I doubt that the Micheals lawyers posted here but some of you are now ripping on the chain for saying that their employees can't go on a public forum and rip on them. By some of the attitudes shown here on the grumble about minor differences of opinion, I would guess that the same people who are ripping on Micheals would fire an employee on the spot if that employee came on this forum and started to rip on them and thier business.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the policy but if that's the policy then that's the policy and at least they have the policy in writing. What's your policy if an employee came here and ripped on you? If you don't have one what happens when it does happen? Do you fire them? Do they then collect unemployment from you since there was no written policy?

I for one am sick of the topic of BBF and FF, lets get on with topics that will help us as business people and stop acting like children here!

I am sorry but I have been holding this in for many days and think others have as well.

[B. Newman]

Time for some Eagles lyrics:

...the more I think about it
ole Billy was right.
let's kill all the lawyers
kill 'em tonight.


GET OVER IT
GET OVER IT
All your moaning and groaning
and pitching a fit
GET OVER IT....

Betty

[ 07-16-2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: B. Newman ]

[PurplePerson]

Question: Is a person allowed to register here under two different names? What happens to you if you get caught. BigBox Framer could surely give that a try.

I'm over it Betty. I promise. I just enjoyed watching the excitement.

[Ron Eggers]

You can register as many times as you want. All you'd need is multiple e-mail addresses. It's not against the "rules."

Besides, we don't need no stinkin' rules, right?

It's in extremely bad taste to assume multiple screen names, or even a single one, if the purpose is to stir up trouble.

Personally, I am becoming increasingly distrustful of any Grumbler who doesn't have a real name or a real location as part of their profile. Some are legit, but it takes a very long time to convince me that they have anything to contribute.

[Marc Lizer]

Originally mentioned by Ron Eggers:
You can register as many times as you want. All you'd need is multiple e-mail addresses. It's not against the "rules." Actually you do not need multiple addresses.

you can use your same e-mail address again and again.

So BigBox could re-register with the same e-mail but a new name. He could keep it hidden like last time, or he could actually disclose it (since only framer knows it), and as long as he does not say where he works or use the same tone, we might not know who he or she is.

For that matter, BigBox actually need not register, but meerly change screen-names, as moderators at the only folks that can see registrattion name.

Just some thoughts . . .

[tnframer408]

There's also a song entitled "Lawyers Guns and Money" which also fits.

[Mel]

So. If it was a manager who posted the contract, can we "kill" all the managers?

Oops. That should me "may".

[ 07-17-2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Mel ]

[Framerguy]

Mel,

Shouldn't that me be??

FGII

[Mel]

Yup.

[CharlesL]

Originally posted by DTWDSM:
OK I have stayed out of this Good plan, DTW

I agree with JRB...First Ammendment gives us the right to 'rip' whomever we please.

[Ron Eggers]

There is compelling evidence that the post from "Michaels' Legal Counsel" did not originate from anyone of the sort. One thing is certain, however. There is a document that regulates the participation of Michaels' employees on bulletin boards like The Grumble. There is no reason to suppose that other large employers in our industry don't have similar regulations.

Whether or not this is a violation of free speech, it is a condition of employment. It seems likely that someone in the home office checks in on The Grumble from time-to-time to see what's being said about their company. I certainly would.

At least one nervous Grumbler has already contacted me seeking advice regarding his participation on The Grumble.

I have no idea how many Grumblers are employees of Michaels or any of the other large, national organizations. The only time it becomes an issue on The Grumble is if you feel compelled to condemn or defend your employer.

My recommendation would be to avoid either one. I think that The Grumble would be a happier place if we all avoided complaining about the "Big Boxes," but, if I were working for one, I would never mention it by name or inference.

It's bad form to bite the hand that feeds you. And it seems possible that the hand will be holding your pink slip if you do.

In all other respects, I hope that you'll participate regularly and contribute when you can. The richness and diversity of The Grumble is a big part of its appeal.

[PurplePerson]

I thing the Michaelers should go underground and just be framers, which they are. They don't have to tell which big box they work for. They can use a fake name. Then they can participate.