Cut'in da woood?

[clifpa]

Hi folks,

Thought I was dead and gone did you? :D

FYI - I'm using the Phaedra Mitre Saw System.

I'm new at cutting my own wood and about ready to saw-up an expensive piece of wood, but hold on I think I better ask my fellow Grumbler's this question first.

When cutting using the Phaedra System the rabbit is supposed to be facing me and the top/face of the moulding is up, right, but I notice that the left side of the wood, I'm about to cut, touches the right side of the extension table and the middle is bowed about 1/8-1/4"? I can do an eye check and there is a bow.

I noticed that all the different lengths I have bought so far have bows somewhere in the length so I figure that's just the nature of the beast and every Grumbler deals with it, right? But you still get the great miters, so...

Ok, I cut a frame before this one and that had a slight bow and I pressed it against the table/saw extensions to make it straight. I ended up having to use my miter sander to get a nice corner, which I did.

On the wood I'm about ready to cut, described above, I was thinking rather then press it to the sides maybe I should just hold it down and leave the bowing? I'm pretty sure everything on the saw and extensions are running true so I wouldn't expect that to be the problem? I have cut a couple of frames where the miters where pretting clean.

I know you get length in the same condition so what technique do you use...send it back...try to cut around it (not enough wood unless I order two lengths) ...press it to the walls of the saw and extensions...just hold the wood from moving and cut-a-way and the miters are great?

Why me...why...why...why. Oh that was ice skating not wood cutting, sorry...wink.

As usual, should you choose to accept this challenge.....and something about self destruct in... :D

[Marc Lizer]

How expensive?

What it mean, is it a big honk'n piece of wood or is it a skinny decorative gilded thingy?

Let's say the cut is not exactly 45, if it's a thinnny one, you can just join it anyways.

If it's a big honk'n piece, it is unlikely that you can get away with variaition.

UNLESS: It also depends upon how you join it.

If you have something like a Ledsome clamp, or a Masterclamp you can force about any stick into submission.

OK, so I'm totally rambling, and am really not making any sense at all, but it sounded good at the time.

[Framerguy]

OK Cliff,

Here is my take on warped moulding. If I am buying from a reputable moulding company and get warped moulding, the first thing I do is call the company and tell them that I received a piece of visibly warped moulding. They will usually offer to send a replacement. I ask them to put a note on the order to check for warp before shipping. If I get a replacement that is warped, I call them back and I am not nearly as pleasant as the first call.

If it is a rush order and I don't have the option of waiting for a replacement order, then I cut the moulding as tight against the fence as possible. (I have used a Phaedra for the past 14 years). If you opt for leaving the warp in the moulding and it is bad enough to be visible, chances are you will have some problems with the rest of the fitting. If you have a 1/16" warp on both vertical legs, for example, you have used up the allowance for expansion in that area when you install the mats, backing board, and object to be framed. That increases the possibility of buckling after the package is hung and the interior environment changes for the worse.

I agree with one little part of Marc's ramblings, how you join that moulding makes a big difference in how the finished product will turn out. If you are working with a narrow moulding, say an inch and a half or less, you can usually get good tight miters if you are using a quality v-nailer. I use a Euro 9009, one of the stoutest built v-nailers on the market today. When that puppy puts the clamps on a miter, it is tight, period. I think that, as the width of the moulding and the height of the moulding increase, getting the miter tight becomes much more difficult. Even the 9009 won't push a 3" warped oak moulding into the proper alignment using as much as 150 psi at the regulator. And the internal pressure of the hardwood fighting against the forced together miter probably will shorten the life of the joint.

I would always let the company know that they shipped you a piece of faulty moulding. If this problem becomes a habit, I would look for another distributor and let the offending company know why you are pulling their samples off the wall and replacing them with somebody else's samples.

There will be a pop quiz on warped moulding at the end of this chapter so read and study these notes well, Cliff. ;)

Framerguy

[Framerguy]

To all other Grumblers, please consider the above post as "Cliff's Notes" tongue.gif

Framerguy

[clifpa]

How do I stand up to painful remarks like, "Cliff Notes" or "Hey Cliff, drop over sometime" or... :(


Thanks Mark and Tom,

It's a 3" piece of wood from Larson Juhl.

Tom, since you have been using the system for 14 years and able to make those tight miters do you think I'm doing something wrong? I bought the blades that cut both the metal and wood frames, could that be a problem? The folks who sell the equipment told me they were great blades. (please, no "I'll sell you a bridge" jokes, thank you)

I really feel it's more me then the wood. Yes, there is warp in this piece, but there is a degree of warp in all my wood and I was able on my last piece to force everything together with the help of my miter sander, but... Tom, you both hold down the wood and press it to the saw fence? Do you think that maybe I'm not holding it tight enough and the wood is moving without me feeling or seeing it?

Hey, it just hit me. Tom, why don't you show what a great friend you are and catch a plane to CA. Remember, I was there for you... ;)

Mark, you have been pretty quiet?

Thanks my friends.

[Framerguy]

Cliff,

Where are the miters giving you a gap? On the face of the moulding? At the point of the miter? At the inside of the corner? A gap in any of these spots could be caused by a different problem.

I would reiterate, if you are sawing a warped piece of moulding, you are shooting craps with getting consistently good miter joints.

Have you checked the moulding for twist? Lay the length on your workbench or on the saw extensions and see if it "rocks" from side to side. If you have twist AND warp you have a compounded problem.

Some of the LJ 3" big fat gold mouldings are tough to force against the fence no matter what you try to do. I have never had a problem with LJ not sending a replacement for a warped moulding. Why don't you call them tomorrow and ask for a replacement?? I'm sure that they will oblige you.

My Phaedra is too old to have the extra clamps that push the moulding into the fence. Mine only has the top clamps that push the moulding down onto the calibrated tables so, if I can't push the moulding in towards the fence with my hand, I can't get a good cut.

I would suspect the warped moulding first. After that, maybe my clamping technique, then I would look at the angle of the saw blades to the fence. After that, I would check the saw blades for "runout". Some blades have a tendency to wobble or vibrate slightly which causes a problem called "runout" where the saw actually cuts an inaccurate kerf by vibrating back and forth as it passes through the thickness of the wood. It isn't that common in softwood but you didn't say whether you are cutting poplar or ash or what.

Inspect your blades. Make sure you didn't throw a tooth off one of your blades. That happens. Make sure that there isn't any chips on any of the teeth. Are you getting any burn marks on the face of the miter when you cut the moulding?

Just going over any possibility that would cause the cut to vary.

Are you paying attention to your stance and pressure that you are applying to the saw as you lower it into the wood? Sometimes you can throw the cut off slightly by pushing at an angle or applying uneven pressure to the saw as you pass it through the wood. Are you making the first cut (on the right hand saw) with your left hand or right hand? I always make the first cut with my left hand and hold the moulding against the fence with my right hand. On the measured cut (second cut) I reverse the hands, holding the moulding with my left and cutting with my right.

I can't think of anything else that may be happening. Oh, are you situated over an earthquake fault line? If so, I would move. It isn't doing anything to your miters but it may swallow your shop one of these days! tongue.gif

(I got myself in trouble for joking like this on some other threads tonight so I will apologize right now if I offended you, Cliff.)

Framerguy

[wpfay]

Cliff, there may be a couple of other variables. Do you use a single saw and swing it back and forth on each cut? Are you absolutely certain that the Phaedra bench is in alignment? What kind of saw are you using, and have you used the Framerguy Protocol for dialing in the miters?

I have used a Phaedra for quite some time, and if you are not switching from wood to metal blades, and if you have only one saw, you will need to use the miter sander. The metal blades will do well on metal, but not so good on wood, and the wood blades will be dulled quickly if used on metal. The detent tabs that stop the swing of the saw at the miters wear and will not be fully accurate fairly quickly if you change the setting with each cut. It is really much better to get a second saw and have each dedicated to a fixed miter.

You also just argued a very good case for getting chops on certain profiles. If you haven't figured in a waste factor on length due to warp, wind and check, you will be constantly battling the distributors over such issues.

Marc, in his inimmitable way, has also provide a good arguement for purchasing one of the industrial strength miter clamps, and I would include with that a detail biscuit joiner.

Happy Chopping!

[clifpa]

Thanks all,

I printed this thread out and will check each item out then get back.

Tom, no way am I offended. I like humor and give alot of it out. Life is tough enough, need the humor and yours is great!

Well get back, Thanks

[Jerry Ervin]

Here is my 2 cents.

I have a Phaedra system that I quit using. My problem was maybe more saw than Phaedra. But I didn't like the clamp system. I bought a FrameSquare and never regretted it. The way the clamp on the saw table is made, it makes up for warpage buy holding the moulding in a perfect position at the entry of the blade.

Everyone keeps talking about LJ's consistent quality and great customer service, I would call them and explain the situation. They just might replace the stick for you and you can try again.

Jerry

[Framerguy]

Jerry,

The Phaedra DOES depend on which saws you attach to the system. And most chop saws that are available for the Phaedra are noisy as heck.

If I were to buy a new saw system, I would probably buy the FrameSquare table saw. That is a neat setup for a medium volume frame shop and I like many of their innovations that were adapted to the "common" table saw concept.

Framerguy

[ERIC]

"Are you getting any burn marks on the face of the miter when you cut the moulding?"

Framerguy, how does this cause bad mitres?

I am getting spotty results with my Phaedra and need to pay more attention to this whole subject.

[Framerguy]

Originally posted by ERIC:
"Are you getting any burn marks on the face of the miter when you cut the moulding?"

Framerguy, how does this cause bad mitres?

It doesn't, Eric, but it is an indication that either the saw blades are getting dull or there is some binding going on as the saw passes through the thickness of the wood. Sometimes, when a piece of moulding is warped or twisted, it will do crazy things as the blade cuts through the wood. As the blade cuts a kerf through the wood the tension within the moulding caused by the warp or the twist will cause the stick of moulding to react by allowing the free end to move in such a way as to relieve the internal tension. Sometimes that means the stick will try to "untwist" or "unwarp" itself (maybe a bad comparison but I can't think of the proper way to phrase it at this point in the day)and it will sometimes press against the side of the blade and cause a burn mark on the end of the miter from friction. Cutting wood is a bit more complicated than simply running a saw blade through it or hacking at it with an axe. There are internal tensions, annual rings, hard wood, soft wood knots, wavy grain, and such and, unless you are working with ramin or some really clean straight grained wood, you may have to deal with the consequences of these inherent influences.

That was a veeeery long answer to a very short question. But I feel that the more a framer knows about the nature of the different woods that they are working with the less they will be at the mercy of the squirrelly things that sometimes happens when you try to hack a section off of a length of wood that grew a certain way for a particular reason.

Framerguy

[ERIC]

Framerguy,

I was with you every step of the way, it wasn't too long.

[wpfay]

Adendum to "burn marks":
The burn marks are not only an indicator of bad blade alignment, dull blade, or internal tension release, they are also a point where the glue won't adhere as well. The blade is not cutting the wood at that point, it is burning, cauterizing, burnishing...and all of those processes effectively seal the grain. The glues we normally use to join our frames are somewhat reliant on the porousity (sp?) of the end grain of the wood to bond well.

I would be interested in cutting techniques used by Phaedra owners. I infeed the moulding from the right fence and cut allthe right hand miters (about 1/2" long), then swing the saw and cut all the left hand miters. This saves a bit of time in moving the saw, and doesn't wear out the detents nearly as fast. I also like to think that it diminishes the effect of any warp. I will also recut the right miter if the moulding doesn't lay flat against the fence.

[Framerguy]

Wally,

Do you get consistently tight miters with a single saw setup? Do you have to touch up the miters with a sander or are they good-to-go direct from the saw?

When I bought my Phaedra almost 15 years ago, I also bought 2 Makita LS-1030 chop saws. They were a new model back then and the local lumber yard ran a special on them for $130.00 each so I bought both of their saws on stock. (I guess they didn't plan on selling more than 2 of these) I tore them both down and, using brass shim stock, I trued up the vertical cut using a combination of an engineer's square and a bubble leveler. Then I set the 45º angles on each saw. I had to modify the one 45º detent slightly to bring it into a perfect 45º angle. (few seconds of a minute of angle off on each saw will give you a visible imperfection in your miter) That sounds like a real nitpicking discrepency and alot of work to go to just to get a true 45º angle but it paid off in spades over the years.

I rarely move my saw positions unless I am cutting other than a 45º angle (an octogan frame for example) and I usually don't get the accuracy on a multiangled frame that I get on a rectangular frame so something must be working right for me.

And, again, the quality of blades used on any chop saw will make a huge difference in the quality of cut. There are only about 3 brands of blades that I would spend money on for my saws and none of them are under $100.

I am a believer in the adage that you get what you pay for.

Framerguy

Edit: Hmm, got a little carried away there and forgot to answer the point of your last post. I do much the same thing as you do. I make my first cut on the left end of the moulding cutting away any end imperfections or fingerprints in the finish. (Ya gotta watch those ends! That is the area where the finishers pick up the moulding to move it and turn it, at least for hand finishing).

I move to the left hand table and set the stop to what I need to cut and I cut the long legs first. That way, if I have my brain out of gear and make a calibration mistake, I can salvage the cut legs by re-cutting them for the short legs.

One trick I learned when cutting laquered mouldings with a chop saw that enters the wood at a top angle, is I put a short length of framer's tape on the area that is to be cut through for the miters. That seems to minimize the laquer chipout that is prevelant with that type of finish. This works (sometimes) on gessoed mouldings also.

[ 07-19-2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Framerguy ]

[lyoncat]

Framerguy, what blades do you recommend??

[Warren Tucker]

Because of the nature of wood moulding, I don't think it's possible to get a perfect miter, you have to be close but perfection is impossible. We've developed a system we call "framing without fear" that involves a "v" nailer and bessey clamps (we have 40 of these clamps) We have one frame maker who makes about 30 frames a day so the system has to be fast. First we join the frame with our "v" nailer (about 95% of our frames are good at this point); if there is a gap we use 4 bessy clamps to apply pressure to each corner. We have clamps that are 8' long so we can clamp about anything.

At to saw blades, you can get a very good blade for under $100: Freud LU 85 (I buy 'em in bulk for about $55. We've noticed that no blade cutting leafed moulding is going to stay sharp long because of the plaster (it's not gesso). We change our gesso-plaster blades about twice a week and get perfect cuts. Believe me, we've got expensive blades: MiterMaster,AccuMiter. The only advantage the industrial blades have over LY85's is maybe in cutting wide maple and oak but it's minor. I think it's vastly more important to sharpen blades frequently than to buy industrial blades.

Runout will not cause an innacurate cut; it'll just make the kerf wider (like a wobble dado blade) and make the blade dull faster.

[Framing Goddess]

Warren, what's a bessy clamp?

edie the gadgetlovin' goddess


And, welcome to The Grumble, btw! You'll fit in nicely- ya'already got the talk down!

[Framerguy]

Lisa,

I hesitate to make recommendations on saw blades as there are quite a few that are good quality on the market. It seems that many framers are accustomed to using a particular brand of saw blade and some will take issue from other's recommendations rather than taking the suggestions at face value.

I use Forrest blades on my saws but I know that there are many other blades out there that are as good and possibly cheaper in price. Forrest just happens to be my choice over about 6 or 7 other brands that I have tried over the years. I have been a woodworker for over 40 years and have only been concerned with extremely high quality cuts in the last 12 years or so. To be honest, I used more Freud blades in my lifetime than any other for general woodworking. It just happens that I prefer the Forrest blades for that satin smooth cut that leaves a miter with a glass like surface. I wonder sometimes if the surface isn't too smooth as the glue depends on a certain amount of penetration into the pores of the wood to function correctly and it doesn't appear that wood HAS pores when you use some of the top quality blades. I know that isn't the case but that is how smooth you can get your miters with good blades.


Edie,

Try this site (http://www.americanclamping.com/products/wood/KBody.htm) for all the information you need on Bessey clamps. It is their website and they are very good quality clamps for most any wood clamping jobs.

Framerguy

[dns ynko]

ok here is an odd ball thing....clifpa, if you have to use it i have an odd thing i do. i know i did not come up with this, nor did anyone inform me of this.

if i have to have a bad join...i will try and have it on the bottom of the frame. i know you will get it in the back, but if it is something that the frame will not bow too much this might do it.

i use pieces of paper towel and glue. paper is sort of wood, instead of using saw dust...paper towels. you can rip them up really smal and coat them with glue. shove them in with a tooth pick into the loose wholes.

i will wait for someone to say i am insane...this is an odd thing i said it.
dennissss

[Ron Eggers]

Dennis, I wouldn't presume to know whether you're insane or not, but if you're getting gaps you can shove a toothpick into, you might want to look into a miter sander or a bag of QuikCrete.

[wpfay]

Tom, no, I don't get perfect miters, and I do have a miter sander. I purchased a Brevetti saw last fall and the phaedra system is now dedicated to cutting metal frames, use on construction projects, and multi angle framing, though with the new jig I built for the table saw, I may be cutting the multi angles on that.

I have had good luck with Ultramiter blades, though I will be looking for a new source for blades since the Brevetti is metric (275mm blade with 30mm arbor). The problem I have is finding someone local that can sharpen the blades without removing 30% of the tooth each time. Ya spend $110+ for a blade and only get 3-4 sharpenings out of it, someone is getting a little heavy handed with the grinders.

[Warren Tucker]

I'm not really sure how to reply to a particular post. Bessey clamps are upscale bar clamps with wide, plastic jaws. Bar clamps are capable of exerting heavy force on joints, much more force than miter clamps. Unfortunately, due to the nature of miter joints, bar clamps are hard to use on picture frames. However, once a frame has been joined with v nails (the v nails hold the corners together)bar clamps work extremely well. Once we clamp up a frame with the Besseys, we can move it aside and leave it for an hour or two.

The clamps are especially useful on large frame which almost never go together well with just v nails (frames over 4'). We have clamps in all sizes, usually 8 of each size.

As to Forrest blades, we have used them on our miter saws (MiterMaster blades, sold by Pistorious) and in our cabinet shop: the Hy AT) but I can't see they are any better than Freud blades and they cost half as much, a big consideration if you sharpen frequently. A Freud ATB blade will cut as smoothly as a Forrest ATB. A carbide blade cutting only wood will last about 30 times longer than one cutting wood/plaster/gesso. Again, we've found that frequent sharpening by a good service is vastly more important than the quality of the blade blank. I wouldn't trust any "local" sharpener. Forrest has a good, but slow, service as does Leitz Tooling in both MI and NC. We use Industrial Saw and Knife.

[Veronica]

I've been lurking a while as I get ready to open my shop. Threads like this are definitely helping with my continuing education! Thanks for all you guys contribute. What a great site.

[wpfay]

Hi Veronica, and welcome to the Grumble. What part of Nebraska? I spent a decade one year just south of the Pine Ridge.

[Veronica]

Thanks for the welcome Wally. I am currently in Lincoln. I am visiting for the summer with a relative who attends UNL. My eventual goal is to end up in Boston and the pursue opening my own shop. I have been framing for others for long enough. Lots and lots to learn first though..........glad I found this place.

[lyoncat]

Thanks for the info Framerguy, and all. We are just setting up our second saw, and my hubby is going to get a copy of this to read.
I have had a number of different blades. Sharpening has been an issue. Has Anyone used Riteway out of NY for this service?

[David N Waldmann]

Originally posted by Framerguy:
It just happens that I prefer the Forrest blades for that satin smooth cut that leaves a miter with a glass like surface. I wonder sometimes if the surface isn't too smooth as the glue depends on a certain amount of penetration into the pores of the wood to function correctly and it doesn't appear that wood HAS pores when you use some of the top quality blades. I know that isn't the case but that is how smooth you can get your miters with good blades.You probably wouldn't notice this phenomenon with a saw (although, as mentioned above, if you let them get dull to the point of burning....), but with a chopper, the cut surface is actually "rougher" when the blades are new. When the cells are actually being sliced open the cut has a dull, satiny look to it, as the knives get duller they burnish the surface to a medium gloss. FWIW.

[clifpa]

I am ssssssooooooo happy!!!

All that responded to this thread have helped in a big way.

I have just finished my 4th cut'in da woood job and they came out perfect. 1 was 1 1/2" wood the others were 2-3" woods. Only one did I need a little touch up with my miter saw. (even here you gave me a technique that I used, pencil a line accross the 45 and miter until gone, worked perfect too)

I am now an expert, ready to be certified by one of the Big Boxes....wink and... :D

Thanks guys 'n' gals