Sometimes I wonder

[woody]

Sometimes I wonder if we're not just wasting our breath in trying to educate customers. Today, a woman came in with framed Scoptt Kennedy print she bought in the 80's. She wanted to change the mats. A simple glance showed it has been framed with paper mats, I opened up the back and found it was backed with corrugated cardboard. I explained about conservation materials and even checked the value of the print in Informart in an effort to make my point. The print was issued at $65. Informart listed its current value at between about $1400 and $1700. The customer was unperturbed and more interested in keeping the price down by saving the few dollars difference between conservation mats and the whitecore paper mats.

[framechick]

Chin up, Woody. We all get those, and then once in a while someone will come in and drop $850 on an ornate gilded (or is it gilt) frame for a bulletin board for her home office. (This really happened to me!)

[MerpsMom]

Don't you just despise cheap people? I don't mind FRUGAL, but CHEEP.....I hate. Our business has reached a place in my mind (perhaps not necessarily on the books http://www.thegrumble.com/framer/ubbs/smile.gif..) where I can quite comfortably refuse to frame the thing unless done correctly--without making the customer feel silly, of course. Which is what I'd like to do. hate cheap people

[JPete]

Most people purchasing a $65 in early 80's would probably not have considered it of great value then. when you checked the price of value now why would you even consider quoting anything but conservation materials? I'd be willing to bet regardless of how it was framed someday it will appear on the antique roadshow and someone will make a lot of money. Not in our life time! No excuse for cheap tho.

One more reason to carry only the ph or rag mats. We used to write a disclaimer on the inside of the frame so if another framer or anyone for that matter would know it wasn't us.

[ArtLady]

Unless the customer insists on something really inexpensive we have ceased providing the paper mats as an option. We don't even bring them out. They now live under the counter. Words like appropriate can be used without giving the customer a hint that we have not provided the cheapest answer.

Custom framing is very subjective.

AL

[JOHNG]

Just refuse to do the work unless it is done properly, tell the customer that you as a framer are ultimatly responsible for the materials used and you can't do the work unless done properly, 9 out of 10 times the customer will have you do it the correct way. You see I feel that the customer thinks you are trying to make a quick dollar off of her. when you refuse the work they realize that you are only looking out for their artwork and change their mind.

what is informart by the way???

[This message has been edited by JOHNG (edited 01-15-2000).]

[ArtLady]

Interesting Reply JohnG.

Perhaps this might also included a little rapport building. Asking the history of the piece, where it was acquired etc. so that you can gain the customers trust. And I agree that sometimes it is a trust issue. Rapport building believe it or not can rescue a situation such as this. If she feels more comfortable with you the trust will come.

Sometimes agreeing with them can work. For instance, "I aggree that this is less expensive treatment and perhaps this is all that the budget will allow, but if I were you I would consider upgrading the mats. Think about how long you will have the piece and over ten years that is $2.00 a year difference and you won't have to reframe it again in five years. Let me get you and this mat treatment on the schedule. I can have it for you next week. Would you prefer to give us a deposit with credit card or check??"

I remain

AL

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited 01-15-2000).]

[Ben Phramin]

Is this a print or a reproduction. I refuse to believe a reproduction is worth $1400. Has anyone realized a reproduction can be reproduced again for less that $1400. And that would include the reproduced signature that came on the "original" reproduction.

[MsD]

Woody, what is Informart? This evidently is an important tool. Tell us about it.

[framechick]

And another thing!...
It drives my boss, and subsequently me. batty when a client holding a coffee for which she's paid $4.50 in a newly manicured for $25 hand gasps in horror at the price of a finished corner gold frame with fabric mats and museum glass. We know the same people don't even blink at spending $200 for dinner out for two and how long is that gonna last?

[woody]

Informart is a quarterly publication that lists current trading price averages of limited edition prints. Virtually all artists published are listed in alphabetical order, with title of print and the high/low everage selling price for that quarter. I am not sure how they gather data but I assume they are somehow connected to a sampling of gallery computers across the country and compile info from that. I can provide subscription details if anyone is interested. While I don't follow exactly the prices quoted it is a useful first look when someone is looking for a specific print. I assumed everyone used it.

[woody]

Ben Phramin. I'm not sure of your question. A print is a reproduction of an original. Many limited edition prints rise substantially in price once the edition has sold out. I am not sure of the record for an LED on the secondary market but in the hey day of Doolittle many of her prints surpassed the $5OOO mark. I have bought and sold prints as high as $1400 over the years....though not many of lates which isd a big reason for the downturn I have experienced in the past year.

[Ben Phramin]

Woody
What you and everyone else are calling prints are really reproductions. They are photo mechanically "printed" by a publisher. They are not considered art, Limited editions are signed reproductions of an oil, acrylic, watercolor etc. The term print is to be reserved to identify multiples of art that is produced
by or under the direct control of the artist.

My point was. If they were reproduced photo mechanically once, they could easily be reproduced again at a much lower price than what "art" dealers and framers are selling them for. A poster is a poster.

[woody]

I'm still confused. Somebody help. The term print is used in our industry to identify any printed (hence the term print) reproduction of an original work of art (most often an oil/acrylic, or watercolor). A limited edition print is such an item limited to a certain number, each one verified by the artist, and signed and numbered by him, as an accurate reproduction of his original work. Aren't we talking about the same thing?

[FramingFool]

Ooooo, ... good subtopic .... go with it.

[JPete]

1. A print(reproduction) of age does have collector value even though it can still be reproduced.
2. True the other print spoken of was considered theeee print. The real art prints can better be described as a lithograph.
3. I believe this has been battered around and it would be a good idea for framers to know the difference.
3a. There are also the Currier and Ives hand colored prints or are they lithos.
4. New words and definitions appear in the dictionary all the time.
5. My opinion is since so many reproductions, posters as you may, are now called prints, LE whatever it seems the artist would prefer to have their real prints called litho's. Not sure my opinion is humble!
6. Oh yes, now we have the GEE..Clays are they prints of reproduction?

[Ben Phramin]

Woody et al:

The term 'print' was, and should be reserved for fine art that is actually made by an artist, or produced under his or her direct supervision. Supervision does not mean sending it to a printer, having it photographed, printed - then checking the quality of the reproduction and then signing it. Printmaking is hard dirty work. Prints are original art in multiples - not multiples of an original. The term 'print' has value because of the hard work and expertise required.

I believe the confusion comes from the fact that reproductions are PRINTED on a press,
AND that, publishers imply a greater value to their product by using the term.
ALSO, framers using the term can imply value and reek profits by selling conservation for a decorator poster that was produced for a few dollars.

The term reproduction should be applied to any poster that is photo-mechanically reproduced for the masses. If a reproduction is signed, it is still a reproduction. If it is numbered, it is still a reproduction.

I am waiting to see a signed and numbered reproduction of a velvet painting called a print.

[ArtLady]

There are three art markets. High end which are canvases, low end which are photo offset prints and a whole middle range.

The low end prints are photo offset and are not considered by some to be fine art. They are identified by a collection of small colored dots. The process used is a mechanical four color process. Some of them are signed and numbered. For example, Thomas Kincade, Bev Doolittle and Robert Bateman. All posters use this same process. One of the disadvantages of this process is that the inks have to be so fine that they are susceptible to fading and great care must be taken if they are not to fade to pink and blue. The yellows are the first to go and red turns to pink over time.

The mid range fine art market includes original graphic prints also. Some of them may be multiples. Others are original works on paper.

They include:

Originals on paper: created by the artist on a plate or stone and because of the process used by the artist are one of kind works on paper.

Monoprints
Monotypes
Original graphics
mixed media on paper

Planograph prints

Original/Hand Pulled Lithographs which are different from photo offset lithographs
They are created by the artist on a plate or stone where the image is drawn on the surface using a special grease crayon. Since the image is defaced when the edition is complete and the original artwork was created by the hand of the artist directly on the plate or stone, the multiply works created by the process are considered originals.


Intaglio Prints

Any process used to create an incised pit, groove or mark that will hold ink below the surface of a plate. A dampened piece of paper is place on the plate and pressure forces the paper into the recessed area and the ink is picked up.

Etchings
Aquatints
Mezotints

Relief Process

Non image area is cut away from the surface thereby leaving the image in relief. Ink is directly rolled onto the relief area, and allows the artist to put different colours where required to capture the desired result. Since the plate is made by the artist's hand, any multiple prints produced by this process are considered originals.

Wood Cuts
Linocuts
Embossing
Wood Engraving

Stencil

This process is used to create serigraphs. They are silk screen prints. Areas on a special screen are blocked out where the artist does not want color to go. Then heavy oil based inks are applied with a squeegee one color at a time. This is a very time consuming process and takes months to create an edition. The resulting images are the closest in color intensity you can get to an original canvas.

Giclee

The new high tech ink jet process of creating multiples. Not much of the artist hand in this process, but the artist usually works closely with the atelier to be sure the process has recreated his creation correctly. This is a highly controversial process since so much of it is done by computer. Again very fine inks must be used. Early prints were susceptible to fading. However they now use special cotton rag paper, advanced vegetable die inks(iris ink sets) and special coatings. They claim the prints will now last 50 years. Time will tell. They are also called Iris Prints. Giclee is actually not a very polite French term which should be used with discretion when in French speaking company.

Cotton rag paper is the choice of fine art print makers since it is PH neutral and does not contribute to the deterioration of the paint/ink as paper does.

AL

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited 01-20-2000).]

[JPete]

AL, where do Watercolors fit in. I prefer a good watercolor or are they not considered permanent enough for the high end? Thanks for all the info. I knew someone would have all the details if we got it started.
BF, I know that the real print makers work hard at what they do, it's just that the marketers have taken over with what they promote as art. I had to chuckle at the velvet.......yuk.

[This message has been edited by JPete (edited 01-20-2000).]

[Le]

My brother was a print maker, but he couldn't make any money, so he went to work for a printer, printing prints and calenders and pamphlets.

[ArtLady]

Hi JPete,

Watercolors years ago were created by artists as preliminary studies for oil paintings. Today they have an audience of their own. They are a difficult medium to master. As originals on paper, watercolors fit in the mid range market for contemporary living artists. They qualify as being one of a kind, produced by the artist's hand. In addition, watercolor paper is ususally the PH neutral cotton rag composition.

Sincerely,

AL

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited 01-21-2000).]