Why a sander?

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

Ok I must admit after the recent hype I have been seriously considering buying a sander.

BUT.....

I have some questions...

I do not picture larger operations using a miter sander. I figure that they use a high quality saw. What brand and model of saw do they use that produces consistently good miters?

If you are using a miter sander do you cut your moulding legs 3/16" long to allow for 1/32" sanding at each end and the usual 1/8" frame allowance?

How do you know how much to sand off each end so that you end up with the length that you want?

[ 10-24-2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Bob Shirk CPF ]

[Ron Eggers]

Hey, Bob.

You don't need a sander if you:
</font> Have a perfect saw with a perfect blade</font> Never use chop (or your chop vendor has a perfect saw with a perfect blade - please provide the name of that vendor)</font> You never break down a frame and recut it or repair an old frame</font>
You shouldn't sand off enough to affect the length of the rail. I take a carpenter's heavy pencil and draw a squiggly line on the mitered ends. When you sand, and the line is gone - you're done.

Usually it just takes a couple of turns of the flywheel unless the chop is really screwed up.

[Cliff Wilson]

>I do not picture larger operations using a
>miter sander. I figure that they use a high
>quality saw. What brand and model of saw do
>they use that produces consistently good miters?

Don't know, but I noticed my corners with my saw were better than the chops I was getting in, particularly around the holidays last year. I don't think it's brand as much as calibration, sharpness, skill, etc. (One rep confided in me that they added xtra "help" cutting during the hoidays ... help that usually was clerical!

>If you are using a miter sander do you cut your
>moulding legs 3/16" long to allow for 1/32"
>sanding at each end and the usual 1/8" frame
>allowance?

No, a couple of turns on the ITW/AMP doesn't take off that much, but it trues them up nicely. Unless they are REALLY BAD (which doesn't happen when I'm cutting) you shouldn't sand off that much.

>How do you know how much to sand off each end
>so that you end up with the length that you
>want?

See above, except, I lay the two "common" legs back side down and check for consistatn length after sanding. That way, if I did need to take a tad more off, due to a chip or something, they get trued up again. With the hand crank you can be very accurate without having to keep shortening each leg. tongue.gif

[MarkG1]

I true up all the frames that I join.

I try to count the revolutions that I turn the disk to keep it consistant.

On wood frames,I watch the sawdust on the top edge of the mitre and when its consistant, that is usually when It's good.

Also, I hold the end of the frame up so I can see the grooves from the sanding disk, you can see if it needs sanded a little more or not. This is how I check metals.

[katman]

I cut to the size I want and use Ron's squiggly line technique. Usually do three revolutions before I check to see if the line is gone.

When I buy joins they are usually excellent. My local LJ uses a Pistorius. No sanding.

I get pretty good custs from my morso. My makita/clearmount system is okay but the sander is necessary.

[JRB]

I've never used one of these. I had to do a very wide teak frame the other day and I think one of these would have helped me. How wide of a moulding will these things true up? What is the best one to buy? how much do they normally sell for? Is there a web page so I can look at one?

Thanks,

John

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

OK. You guys have told me what I need to know.

I get excellent chops from the crew in the Philadelphia Larson Juhl distribution center. A tip of the hat and a big thanks guys.

I get excellent chops from my Jyden chopper.

If I owned a saw that did not perform well I would want a sander.

I'm still wondering what the BIG BOYS use.

[Framerguy]

I just KNOW I will catch some flak from 2 particular framers who I guffawed all the way to the car watching them struggle with their newly bought 50 pound bulky miter sanders 2 years ago but (gotta take a breath on THAT one!), I have a question about miter sanders.

Do they work well (or at all) on metal mouldings that consistently have a small "rollover" on the outside edge from chopping on certain saw setups?

My Phaedra is a fine chop product but the angle of entry/exit of the saw blades leaves a little rollover of aluminum on the outside edge of the miter which has to be removed to look clean. Can you remove this with a miter sander? Or is that asking too much of the machine?

Yeah, I know, "Framerguy wouldn't be caught DEAD with one of those idiot machines!!" My saws DO give me accurate miters on most all woods (with the exception of LJ's La Cirque) but I need a quick fix for that little problem with metals.

I didn't even show many metals in my old shop but they are big down here with the "beach art" and the "condo art" stuff. So I am showing more metal samples than before and cutting more frames from that recycled Reynolds Wrap than ever before so I need a direction to follow. It seems that the metal frames I ordered chopped has much the same problem when I get them.

So ........ Ron & Mark ......... could you be so kind as to spare me the witty sarcasm and tell me if this is a do-able thing on a miter sander?

Framerguy (remember, I know where both of you live, ...... sorta.) :eek:

[Ron Eggers]

FramerGuy,

I have used my sander on metals. It'll save a bad cut, but it's very tough on the disc. For a little burr, I prefer to use a piece of emory paper mounted to fomecore (acid-free, of course.)

I can't quite visualize what your metal-mitres look like, but I don't think I'd buy a sander just to use on metals.

Why don't you cut off a 6" chunk with your saw and mail to me or Mark and we can try the sander on it and mail it back?

Mark would probably hand-deliver it back to you.

Don't wait to long or you'll be too old to lift one of these things.

I almost made it through my whole post without any sarcasm.

=========================================
(Combining responses to limit my posting numbers.)

JRB, you're a tool guy. You gotta get one of these. I think you'd like the ITW/AMP. You could probably sand a 6" moulding, but I'll check when I get back to the shop tomorrow. Regular price hovers around $475.

Try to avoid having one shipped, or carrying it for 3 miles.

[dns ynko]

The other day I did a moulding that was bout four inches wide on the ITW/AMP sander. It was good. Different profiles might not work as well as far as width goes.

Metal it will work ok, but I suggest the pop or pull method after you use the sander on a meatl chop. Here is why. I f you do this with a metal it pulls the metal chop and it will sort of fray(sp) the ends of the chop. So I will pull the ends along a short astro turf type of carpet. or I will put the chop under the edge of a table and pop it up. Doing either of these will pull the fray back into the moulding and round off the edges so you don't cut your delicate hands.
d

[CharlesL]

John, try THIS LINK (http://www.framingsupplies.com/itwamp/DiscSander.htm) for the sander Ron's talking about. Good price, too.

[Framerguy]

dns,

That's about what I do now. I drag the mitered edge over a piece of Aspenite scrap to roll the edge over and then I use a single cut bastard file to carefully dress the miter down. The problem is, when I get in a hurry, I get a bit sloppy with the file and the miter opens up somewhere along its length and that looks baaaad!

This is one of the reasons that I don't like to work with metal mouldings. My blades are sharp so I am sure that the burr edge is being formed by the blade exiting towards the outside edge of the moulding and forming a sort of "wire edge" on the tip of the miter.

Ron, are you being sarcastic or do you seriously want me to send you some "samples"?? I would be happy to do that as long as you don't blame me for tearing up your sander! tongue.gif

(Sometimes you get seriously sarcastic and it's hard to tell which way you are heading!) :D

Framerguy

[JRB]

Are you using a coolant sprayer on your metal cutting saw? Using a coolant spray as you cut, usually takes care of any burring. Try it, makes a world of difference.

Drawback, my twenty five year old CTD 50, looks like it's a hundred years old, rusty, ugly, stained, but it still works great.

Charles, thank's for the link.

John

[Framerguy]

John,

I'm afraid that would not work on my setup. I use a Phaedra with 2 mitersaws set up for opposite angles. My entire saw setup is mounted on top of one of my custom built wooden work tables and I am very hesitant to spray water on that table on a regular basis. It is finished with matte polyurethane but I know how birch plywood sucks moisture into its pores even with a finish and I don't want my table delaminating for the sake of a few metal poster mouldings.

One thing I haven't tried yet is a wax stick. I have one but have never learned how to properly use it. I have tried using it on spinning blades, melted the wax stick and threw wax all over the place. I tried applying wax on a stationary blade, it didn't seem to do any good.

Do any of you use these wax sticks to cut metals?

How do you apply the wax to the blade?

Have you found a way to make waxing a saw blade work??

Framerguy

[Ron Eggers]

FramerGuy,

I was serious. Cut a few 6" pieces and mail 'em to me. I'll sand them and send them back for your inspection. If I can send WallBuddies to England and articulated backplates to Australia, I can probably mail a few metal pieces to Florida.

(Someday, I may even send a perforator to Rochester.)

A little light sanding isn't going to hurt my disc. It's when you try to grind off a quarter-inch that you get in trouble.

[dns ynko]

Ok I am not into the wax stick. I only used it twice while helping out a friend. I cut about fifty frames. It gets all over and about every fout cuts I had to reapply it. Then you have this goo all over these nice metals that you have to clean and I dont care for it. That is me, I do cut metals at one of my jobs. It is an old Pistorious. It has a device that sucks some liquid out of a bottle and sprays some on the metal to keep it cool. Just a tiny bit. You do have to wipe it down, not as much as wax.
D

[AWG]

Never one to miss a chance to praise the miter sander.....

I have to admit that I'm a BIG fan of the miter sander. I joined half a dozen frames yesterday with no effort at filling, putty, etc. The dreaded 4th corner goes together as easily as the first.

It works great on nearly all finishes, but requires a lighter touch on some gold leaf and highly lacquered mouldings.

For consistency I always try to turn the same nukber of times on each stick. I've yet to take too much off - I'd probably wear my arm out first.

Haven't tried it on metal - I hate cutting it and usually order chops, but I'll give it a try today and report back. If Ron says it works, then I believe him. As for the wax stick - I HATE IT. I use a Phaedra system for metal and I end up with chunky wax residue over everything. Not to mention the stuff all over the moulding. I end up having to clean the blades because of all the #### that builds up on them. On the few metal chops I've done lately I've just squirted a little WD40 on the blade and it worked OK.

I've sanded stuff up to 4" - I think we could probably sand 6" or so.
We use both the Phaedra and a Morso chopper and occasionally order chops - everything gets sanded. Well worth the $$$ we spent.

This is an unpaid testimonial for the ITW/AMP miter sander. Willing to get paid, though :D

[Ron Eggers]

I want to emphasize that I don't routinely sand metals - either my own or chop. With metals, unlike woods, you do get a second chance if they don't go together well and I only use the sander if I encounter a problem.

I use a 60-tooth (I think) 10" carbide blade specially made for aluminum. I have used the commercial wax stick (it IS messy) and United's Mitre Mist or whatever it's called. The later was out-of-stock the last time I ordered and I started using some cheap candles to lubricate the blade. With the blade spinning, I cut a notch on the candle, about every four cuts.

I don't specifically recommend this, but I've been very happy with my metal cuts and I rarely use the sander on them. If I don't lubricate at all, I get rough cuts with this blade.

BTW, I use a 10" radial saw with a Barton multi-angle attachment. I'd be pretty surprised if there are many Grumblers using that setup.

[dns ynko]

ron that 10 inch is it the saw or sander? i think it is the saw...just saw the barton and thought of the sander i won at atlanta. wondering if you used it.
d

[MarkG1]

I use a wax stick for metals. Always have and the mess isn't to bad. I apply it with the blade "not running". Something about losing a finger or two just scares me.

I also use a blade made for non-farous metals. I have a single saw set up.

After sanding the metals, I have a strip of carpet mounted on a board that I drag the end of the frame across to "roll" the burr back and then I use a board with a piece of emory cloth, I think 100 grit, to finish taking off the burr.

My saw set up does ok on mitres, but I have to use the sander on the ones I cut. As far as chops, I have had to many occasions were they didn't match to my liking. So the sander takes away any doubt.

You don't want to sand to fast on the moldings with the gesso finish. It will feather the edge of the corner leaving it brittle and it will chip off.

As far as metals, one of the things that I don't like is that they wear out your sanding disk faster. So I am in the process of having a whole new wheel made for my sander and I will use it for metals and switch back to the original for woods. It'll be just like a blade change on the saw.

I am a small enough opperation that this works for me.

As far as larger guys go, I think if they didn't have perfect chops "every time", this would be a great way to improve there quality, and doesn't take that long to accomplish.

[AWG]

Tried the sander on a metal cut this morning. Didn't like it. I'll stick with chops or emery paper instead.

Someone asked about the size of the moulding that can be used. From the outside edge of the miter there is 8" of usable sanding area and 3 1/2" from the base to the top of the wheel.

NOW what are you waiting for? ;)

Tony

[JRB]

OK, If you can't use a sprayer, try a REALLY good blade. Call Larry at CTD Machines in Los Angeles, 213-689-4455. He sold me a pair of unbelievably great cutting metal blades for my CTD 50.

If you've been using triple chip blades to cut metals, your going to be one happy camper with these new blades. I don't know the nomenclature of the blades, but explain to Larry your cutting problems and he will set you up with the right blade. They ain't cheap, around $250.00 each, but well worth every penny.

John

[osgood]

When cutting aluminium on my double mitre saw I use a pressure pack lubricant on the blades every 6 to 8 cuts and get my blades sharpened regularly.

There is never any need to do anything else to the cut ends to make them fit together perfectly.

[Emibub]

Framerguy,
I have always used the wax sticks with the blades running. I of course replace them when the stick is half used up, I'm not a daredevil.

When I just had those little compound mitre saws here it was suggested by the people at American Design(Phaedera)to use spray lemon Pledge on the blades. It was really easy to spray the blades when they weren't in motion. You can spin the blades by hand while you are spraying. It worked well. They claimed it worked as well as the wax sticks. Since I have upgraded to a floor saw I can't use the Pledge because it is a big pain to get to the blades with it.

[Rick Bergeron - CPF]

FG,

I'm sure you've figured this out and no insult intended to anyone's intelligence....

The purpose of waxsticks is the same as coolant spray, not as a lubricant. Excess heat causes the wax to melt, thus cooling the blade. Same principle as putting water on a fire, the evaporating water removes BTUs from the fire. With the blade spinning, just quickly touch the waxstick to the blade and load up the teeth. One loading of the blade usually is enough to make 8 cuts, though I watch the wax melting and reapply when I can't see it melting; but never more than 8 cuts.

The wax sure makes a mess, but carbide blades last much longer between sharpenings. Coleman fuel cleans the wax off the moulding nicely. ;)

[Framerguy]

That may be part of my problem with cutting metals. I am using 100 tooth Forrest triple chip ATB blades which are top notch blades but not of the tooth configuration for metals, I suspect.

Kathy, the Pledge idea is worth trying. I will have to buy another set of blades that are a different grind and dedicated to cutting non-ferrous metals. That way I don't tear up my good Forrest blades and I don't have to clean the gunk off of them before cutting wood.

Rick, you are soooo far away from insulting me that it isn't even in the Insulting Dictionary!!! I asked the question for just that type of information and I thank you for the reply.

(I DID have that basic theory down in my memory banks somewhere, though I am not sure which department it is stored in!) tongue.gif

Thanks to all who offered a all these fine tips on cutting metals.

Oh, and a special thanks to Bob Shirk for allowing me to Frankenthread his thread about sanders! Sorry about that, Bob but alot of good tips DID come out of it so I guess you will eventually forgive me, eh??

Framerguy

[Ron Eggers]

Rick, I didn't know that, and I never stopped to think why you'd need a "lubricant" to cut relatively soft aluminum with carbide-tipped steel.

Any time you feel the need to apologize for insulting someone's intelligence here - chances are, you're not.

Thanks.

Edit: FramerGuy, don't worry about Bob Shirk. He bailed out of this thread about half-way through when he figured out he didn't really NEED a sander. My guess is, you don't, either.

[ 10-26-2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]

[Framerguy]

Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
Edit: FramerGuy, don't worry about Bob Shirk. He bailed out of this thread about half-way through when he figured out he didn't really NEED a sander. My guess is, you don't, either. Ron,

Are you saying that I do such perfect chops that I wouldn't have a use for a sander?

Or are you insinuating that

"I'm never gonna change this old fart's mind no matter what I say so I will just placate him and maybe he'll forget to come back to this post again to argue!!"

(Insert little smiley face here --> :D so Ron knows I'm just pullin' his chain.)

Framerguy

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

No worries about the Frankenthread. What good is a topic if it can't be Frankenthreaded. Ron I probably do need a sander as I am not happy with the quality of the miter cuts my saw produces and I am going to wait a little while before I invest in a better saw.