Wide Mat Corner Samples, YES or NO

[JRB]

I just recieved a set of Artique samples from Larson Juhl. The samples are the four inch wide ones, I sent them all back.

Large samples are a pain to work with and hard to handle.

Explaining to a customer how a wide mat will look at the design table using wide samples does not work. For a customer to try and visualize using corner samples, only a narrow mat sample will work. Have you ever noticed how a customer will move the frame sample to within an inch of the inside edge of the mat sample? They do this because it is easier to visualize a narrow line going completly around a picture than a wide line. You have to explain to the customers how this optical illusion works. Here it is, when your working with corner samples, a narrow mat always looks best because it helps you to visualize how it will look going completly around the picture. When a framing job is completed, the exact opposit is true, the wider the mat, the more important the picture will look. This can usually only be understood by the customer when they see completed matted and framed samples on your gallery or shop walls. We have narrow samples and wide samples on various size pictures in our shop, just for this reason.

I don't know how this wide sample nonsense got started, I sure will be glad when it burns itself out.

This is my opinion, please voice yours.

John

[FrameItEtc]

Hi, JRB....

I agree with you 100%. IF wide mats (4" or more) were chosen the MAJORITY of the time, i would be all for the 4" corners, BUT, I very, very rarely cut mats wider than 3 1/2". If a customer wants some kind of idea how a mat 4-5 or even 6" wide looks, i just choose 2 mats, similar in color and use both to increase the width. The width I use most commonly on 8x10 to 11x14" items is 1 3/4... 12x16 to 16x20 items-2 to 2 1/4" wide, 18x24 to 24x30-2 1/2 to 3" wide, larger than 24x30- 2 1/2 to 3 1/2" wide. These are MY suggestions to my customers, BUT, if they want, by all means, a mat 12" wide around a 2" x 2" photo, or a mat 1" wide around a 30x40 signed and numbered print, i respect their decision and cut the mats to their specs. If Bainbridge and/or Crescent ever decide to start cutting mat corner samples 4" wide, I hope they still offer the mat samples as they are now. If not, I will have a lot of mat corners to cut down to a normal size.....ajh

[Emibub]

I am finding them hard to design with. Mainly because all my corners aren't all the same size. But I have to say, I think they look way too wide on the design table. I push wide mats too. I'm just assuming there is a period of adjustment.

[Ron Eggers]

Maybe I'm weird. I don't negotiate mat widths with my customers. They pick out the mats and frame from the small selection I present, and we talk about glass options, depending on the lighting where it's going to hang. By that time they've made about all the decisions they want to make and I'll say something like, "I'd recommend a 3" mat on the top and sides and 3 1/2" on the bottom," if I say anything about mat width at all. Nobody ever picks up their order and says, "Ohmygod, the mat is gigantic!!"

The couple of times I've actually shown sombody a 4" sample, they've said, "Ohmygod, the mat is gigantic!!"

People don't like wide mats when they're looking at samples, but the wall models they notice and like are the ones with the huge mats.

Apparently, most framers expect their customers to visualize a beveled-edge mat by looking at a straight-cut sample, but they don't think they can accept a 3 1/2" mat if you show them a 2 3/4" sample.

[katman]

My cutomers are a bit like Ron's. We select the frame, mat colors and discuss glass. Then I tell them how much exposure I intend to have on top and other layers. Usually they say 'Oh, that sounds good.' Frequently get a blank look when I say something technical like "reverse bevel." Only had two cases (so far) where customer didn't like the piece when they came to pick up. In both instances what they ordered was not what I recommended. In fact, told one (young dentist and his new bride) they would end up paying me to redo what they selected. I hate doing the same job twice, but the extra money came in handy during a slow month!

Going to unpack my 4-inch samples this weekend so I'll see what the reaction is.

[B. Newman]

These new Crescent Select samples are the first ones I've ever had that are 4", so I really don't know yet. I do know that when I opened the box, my first reaction was, "boy, they're big!" When I need a smaller mat showing than the sample, I take another mat and turn it upside down on the outside edge of the frame sample, blocking any additonal color showing. I guess I'll just do that with these.

Betty

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by JRB:
...I don't know how this wide sample nonsense got started, I sure will be glad when it burns itself out...Well, John, maybe it was me. I started campaigning for 4" wide mat samples in 1998, and I think it was 1999 when we had a bunch of threads on the topic, both here and on HH.

We recommend a mat width for almost everything that finds its way to our design table. We don't ask customers how wide the mat should be, because they too often think 1" is plenty.

When we had only 2-3/4" samples and talk of width came up, customers said "That standard width is enough". It seemed to be an implicit recommendation -- even to some of our frame designers. So, in 1998 we cut our own 4" samples, just to see what would happen. Overnight, the mat widths got wider, the frames got bigger, the profits got better, and the customers are happier with the look of the wider mats.

Nonsense? I don't think so; it works for me.

If you like narrower samples, cut them down. Believe me, that's much easier than cutting them from scratch out of a whole board.

[spilco]

i agree with jim. since i've been using the 4" mat samples my jobs have been done with wider mats creating more profitable orders. also, you can still sell a 2" mat, but it is easier to sell wider mats with wider samples. i just wish crescent would make the switch.

[Tim Hayes.]

I use the 4" samples and sell wider mats. More money for me !!!

[Less]

Ok, I want 6" mats. Please!!!

But, seriously, it's a good exercise to break out of our box. Who made 3" the standard anyway (next topic)? I love to see Nielsen's Ads for the frames showing unusual configurations. The Art sitting on the bottom, weighted on top, 10" mat on the side. That's so cool, inspirational and great design. Think about it! How often do you suggest looking at really, Really, I mean REALLY BIG MATS? They come to us for “custom” and innovative design, so let’s give it to them.

I think the largest mat I ever had the balls (excuse me ladies) to suggest was 6x6x9, on a 10x12 image. They said, OK, I sweated a little trusting my decision, and they loved it. So, my point is the larger samples remind us to think out side of our comfort level.

If they all convert to 4”; unfortunately that will become our “standard”, so it’s a good idea to have even larger samples that make us a little uncomfortable.

Although, I have to admit, 4” is about all my little paws can handle. MAT SAMPLES!
:eek:

[TADPORTER]

Like Ron I determine best mat width - usually no less than 4" anyway - and rarely discuss w/my customers who completely trust my judgement.
As far as the wider mat samples... I dont like 'em - too cumbersome and decievingly disproportionate in relation to the frame sample when designing.
---Mike

[Rick Bergeron - CPF]

We can echo all of Jim Miller's response.

In addition, it seems as though the customers who brought moulding samples in from the edge of the smaller samples an inch.... well, now those folks bring the moulding samples in an inch on the 4 inch wide samples, so the bottom line is that even those customers are getting wider mats.

[AndyPan, CPF]

I personally think the 4" samples are about the best thing to come along my design table. I think it is soooo much easier to talk a customer into going with the larger mat when they can see the width THERE in front of them from the beginning. Those that DO say that they think it's an awfully big mat, I explain to them that the mat will look much smaller once it goes all the way around the image than it does in the one corner. More times than not, the customer will defer to me anyway, and the point is moot, but it is still nice to have the visual aid. Think about it: how do you convince your customer to go with a 4" moulding that looks fabulous on a piece that the customer wants a 1 1/2" moulding on?

[Lance E]

4 inch gets a thumbs up from me, although we are in a similar situation to others here and "reccommend" the mat width for the job with little discussion where possible, they have had a marked impression on sales figures which is always nice.

[unframed_mystery]

I admit it took awhile to get used to the 4" samples, but now we love them! Some customers will always think that 1" of mat is the way to go, but those people were around when we had 2" samples and they thought they were 'HUGE' :rolleyes:

We don't ask our customers how wide they want their mats; we're the professionals so we make our own recommendations, explaining that mat widths are sized in relation to the size of the artwork.

If we want to show a mat width of less than the 4" sample, we simply slide the frame sample inward until the desired effect is achieved! Wow huh? (hey, us Canadians are innovative!) ;)

I prefer more interesting varied widths in mat design, so the wider samples are never a problem... :cool:

[jframe]

4 :D

[PurplePerson]

I like the concept of the 4" mats, even though I can't get my hands around them. When I think a mat should be wider, I use them. When I don't think it should be that wide I use the smaller ones.

My only complaint is there aren't enough colors. We pick a color from the smaller samples and then I try to show them what it would look like wide and we can't even approximate the color most of the time. I am sure they will eventually come in more colors.

[SouthernFramers]

Originally posted by jframe:
4 :D ditto ;)

[Framing Goddess]

I, too, think the 4" corners are unwieldy.
But...
We do still have the bulk of Crescent samples as 2 3/4" and have them in the same rack as the Bainbridge 4" samples...
We sell 5x more Bainbridge than Crescent. And I must admit I prefer working with Crescent over Bainbridge, but others of us selling at the shop (as well as customers) seem to be attracted more to the Bainbridge wider samples. And, indeed, not every mat is 4" all the way around, but overall mats are wider than they were before the 4" samples.
Crescent, I hope you are reading this. I want to sell more of your boards!
:eek:
-Edie the fg

[Ron Eggers]

Originally posted by Kate McCarthy: (from another thread)
Greetings from Crescent.
I wanted you to be aware that we are producing 4" samples for our Ragmat, Moorman and Select lines. We will continue to round those corners that feature a 40x60 option. The new 4" corner samples will be available in mid-August.

[JRB]

Don't get me wrong, we sell wide mats all the time. Like I said in my first post, "The wider the mat, the more important the picture will look". Like any rule of thumb, that is NOT the case ALL the time.

Every picture has it's own personality, it's not just the colores in a picture, it's the mood or feeling of it. The environment it's going to be presented in is also a consideration, the width and hight of the display space, colores in the room etc. All the time considering the personality of the owner of the piece. I've sold mats over twelve inches wide. Every piece, every customer is unique, situations vary.

My point is, when your flipping through a lot of samples at the design counter, having the 2 3/4" samples makes the process go a lot smoother and faster than fumbling around with those four inch samples.

Even though I personally think the four inch samples are just plain silly and clumsy to work with, that does not mean I don't wish anyone to have them.

Larson Juhl has decided that the only size they will carry their Artique line in is four inches. I think they should handle both sizes. Cutting down samples is not a great idea. The die stamped samples have a smoother, cleaner edge. Cutting them by hand will leave you with a bunch of sloppy looking samples.

The choice should be left to the individual frame shop owners, not some clutz in marketing, who resides deep in the bowles of Mega Corporation.

I'm hoping that Crescent and TruVue will take that into consideration as they ponder switching to all four inch samples.

John

[Jana]

Maybe 3 1/2" samples would be a good compromise.

I don't think every piece needs LARGE mats. Most houses just aren't that big. For example, if I use an 11" x 14" or 16" x 20" frame for something I am framing for myself, it looks relatively small at work. When I bring it home it takes on a different scale. (I live in a c. 1970s split level.)

While I like larger (wider than 2 3/4") mats and do recommend them frequently and when appropriate, I don't overdo it. If the customer is adamant that they don't have a lot of space, I listen to them.

[Linda Foote]

Great thread, all!
Sue and I were so excited to get the wide mat samples from Bainbridge, and we look forward to wide ones from Crescent and Tru-View/Miller. But, we still use all the samples in the house. Some are on top of the counter, some are below. Unfortunately, our mat rack is not large enough to add a 4th line, so most of the Artique went below the counter. We did choose a few NEW and different colors to add to our top-of-the-counter display.
JRB, thanks for your explanation of why customers put the frame corner on the mat with only 1" mat showing! I've always wondered about that.
Recently, like Ron, we have begun to decide the mat width for the customer without too much discussion. Havn't had anyone complain that the mat was the wrong width, too wide OR too narrow.

To all who posted on this thread: How refreshing to read all these opinions with no arguing!! You all should pat yourselves on the back. ;)

[Ron Eggers]

Gasp! I just realized that, even if I decide to incorporate the new 4" samples (which would become 3 7/8" sample because I will bevel-cut every single one of 'em,) they won't fit on my beloved 6-ft long 2-tiered custom acrylic display rack.

You think I'm exaggerating. Here it is:
http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0NAAAAIISvN4X7IWX0f*tw*b0rx8KyShfNPTaXBfnxkb52MvRq 22xvxjqaVI7MxHMg9PQfGWQeInDgXXYqixxXw/rack5.jpg

I suppose I could put the narrow samples, which would be the decorative boards (nice name for paper mats) on the bottom tier and the larger samples on the top tier. Yeh, that's the ticket! And I'll hire The Diva to bevel cut 2,000 mat samples.

[Ron Eggers]

I guess I was out in the sun too long today. The 4" samples probably aren't "longer," they're just wider. They won't hang any lower on the rack, they'll just stick up higher and there's plenty of vertical room. I had to study my own photo to figure that out. :confused:

What a relief!

I still like the idea of putting the C-P mats on the top tier and the decorative mats on the bottom . . . in the shadows . . . where it's really hard to reach them . . . and I might just forget they're there.

I know many of you have gotten rid of your paper mats and samples altogether, but there are some of the Crescent Specialty Whitecore mats that I really like and use. I wish they were rag, but they're not. There are some others I use, too, but I can't remember at the moment what they are.

[Less]

Must be gettin old...
talkin to himself again?

It's Sunday????